Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[WhiskyJack]

Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

 

 

The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow..either Rand or LTT says that to Isy at some point in the books.

 

People do love to trust everything written down in the books. I mean come on! Ishy was the one saying the LTT/Rand soul had turned, but he was pretending to be the DO himself at the time. I doubt he would even know. And even if he somehow had memories of all previous battles from past ages, he was trying to get Rand to believe fighting was pointless. All about motive.

 

Unless RJ has said that the Dragon has ever turned to the shadow I have to believe what is written in the books. The Dragon is just one soul across ages so if he ever turned to the shadow then that soul can never be the champion of the light again..as the soul remains constant through the ages.

 

 

Actually you don't. It is something left for debate. You can neither prove it or disprove it. Rebirth always gives you a fresh start.

[XXX]

Unless RJ says so..we have to go by what is written in the books which is that the Dragon soul have never turned to the shadow.

[WhiskyJack]

Unless RJ says so..we have to go by what is written in the books which is that the Dragon soul have never turned to the shadow.

 

 

Again we don't. "Sources" in book are not credible. It is someone's opinion. So we don't have to. Series is filled with opinions which have no basis in fact. Rand is whacked out crazy (or he was). He said he is going to kill DO. So much for his opinion.

[XXX]

 

1) Nyn is forced to fight Moghy. Moghy is still out there. She helped Rand fight Rahvin but Rand did the actual killing.

2) Mat killed Gholam because he was forced into it. Other than that...?

3) Perrin has fought the most shadowspawn after Rand (from two river crowd) yet he had not killed anyone major (slayer is still out there).

 

If you want just out down someone, everyone can be put down.

 

Lets us see,

 

Ny helped Rand kill Rahvin,healed Logain,captured Moghy without whom most of the great "discoveries" would not have happened, healed madness, healed stilling, stopped Rand from making some terrible mistakes which could have turned him to the Shadow, found a new method of healing oh and BTW helped clean saiden

 

Mat helped Rand defeat the Shaido, killed the Gholam, helped get the bowl of winds, helped make the new "dragon" weapons and assembled arguably the best army to fight the DO on Rand's side

 

Perrin destroyed the Shaido, fought off Slayer, formed the biggest alliance in Randland to fight on Rand's side in the LB.

 

Egwene got captured by the Seachan and had to be rescued by Ny, got spanked by the Aiel,learnt how to dream walk,got hoisted as the Amyrlin, learnt how to manipulate the rebel AS, rediscovered travelling,learnt how to make a white metal, got captured by the WT, got spanked by the AS, fought of the Seachan, became combined Amyrlin then decided she knows better than the Dragon on what to do about the DO.

[XXX]

Unless RJ says so..we have to go by what is written in the books which is that the Dragon soul have never turned to the shadow.

 

 

Again we don't. "Sources" in book are not credible. It is someone's opinion. So we don't have to. Series is filled with opinions which have no basis in fact. Rand is whacked out crazy (or he was). He said he is going to kill DO. So much for his opinion.

 

It is either the book or RJ's clarification if available.

 

Rand does not say it..Ishy does and not just to Rand. The turning of the Dragon soul is the major aim which is why the DO does not want to kill him.

[WhiskyJack]

Unless RJ says so..we have to go by what is written in the books which is that the Dragon soul have never turned to the shadow.

 

 

Again we don't. "Sources" in book are not credible. It is someone's opinion. So we don't have to. Series is filled with opinions which have no basis in fact. Rand is whacked out crazy (or he was). He said he is going to kill DO. So much for his opinion.

 

It is either the book or RJ's clarification if available.

 

Rand does not say it..Ishy does and not just to Rand. The turning of the Dragon soul is the major aim which is why the DO does not want to kill him.

 

 

That makes no sense. You can always kill Dragon, grab his soul and turn him.

 

Also, DO didn't want to kill Dragon at first because he wanted to turn Dragon (probably an ultimate slap for Creator). Would it not make sense to just kill dragon and eliminate a dangerous enemy? DO is a god, surely his need for Dragon is exaggerated. He has Moridin.

[XXX]

Ishy,Rand(after his enlightenment) and the wolves say that if he had turned there would be no LB. The battle would be over before it started. 3 separate sources all say the same thing.

 

Obviously the Dragon is stronger than Moridin. LTT beat Ishy both times they met and so has Rand.

 

Dragon Soul cannot be turned after death similar to why the hero souls cannot be turned they are out of the DO's reach.

[WhiskyJack]

 

1) Nyn is forced to fight Moghy. Moghy is still out there. She helped Rand fight Rahvin but Rand did the actual killing.

2) Mat killed Gholam because he was forced into it. Other than that...?

3) Perrin has fought the most shadowspawn after Rand (from two river crowd) yet he had not killed anyone major (slayer is still out there).

 

If you want just out down someone, everyone can be put down.

 

Lets us see,

 

Ny helped Rand kill Rahvin,healed Logain,captured Moghy without whom most of the great "discoveries" would not have happened, healed madness, healed stilling, stopped Rand from making some terrible mistakes which could have turned him to the Shadow, found a new method of healing oh and BTW helped clean saiden

 

Mat helped Rand defeat the Shaido, killed the Gholam, helped get the bowl of winds, helped make the new "dragon" weapons and assembled arguably the best army to fight the DO on Rand's side

 

Perrin destroyed the Shaido, fought off Slayer, formed the biggest alliance in Randland to fight on Rand's side in the LB.

 

Egwene got captured by the Seachan and had to be rescued by Ny, got spanked by the Aiel,learnt how to dream walk,got hoisted as the Amyrlin, learnt how to manipulate the rebel AS, rediscovered travelling,learnt how to make a white metal, got captured by the WT, got spanked by the AS, fought of the Seachan, became combined Amyrlin then decided she knows better than the Dragon on what to do about the DO.

 

 

1) You are listed Nyn's achievements. Half has nothing to do with shadow and half are discoveries with no particular relation to shadow. Rand could have used Eqwene to clean shaidin (yes she is strong enough for that). He simply trusted Nynaeve.

2)Again no different from Eqwene. Mat didn't design Dragon. We have yet to see his army against Shadowspawn and there is a general consensus that human armies are not that important for true fight.

3) Who gives a crap about shaido? Again, pointless argument.

 

You wanted to point out how awesome rest are and how they have "destroyed" shadow and what not. But they haven't.

[WhiskyJack]

Ishy,Rand(after his enlightenment) and the wolves say that if he had turned there would be no LB.

 

Dragon Soul cannot be turned after death similar to why the hero souls cannot be turned they are out of the DO's reach.

 

 

What? Ofcourse there will be LB. Only they will lose.

 

Turning of Dragon has no meaning. Dragon has to rely on Min for clue, callondor for strength, people for fighting the shadow army...turning him to dark is not a military win for shadow..but a slap on creator's face. You should remember who the true enemy is. DO probably is destroying humanity just to spite Creator.

[XXX]

All of them have one way or the other done more against the Shadow than Egwene either by helping Rand to prepare the armies to fight the LB or fighting the shadow themselves.

 

All Egwene has done which can be termed as fighting the shadow in any way is beat Messana and execute black sisters based of the list give to her by Verin..has she even killed a Trolloc, I don't remember.

[XXX]

Ishy,Rand(after his enlightenment) and the wolves say that if he had turned there would be no LB.

 

Dragon Soul cannot be turned after death similar to why the hero souls cannot be turned they are out of the DO's reach.

 

 

What? Ofcourse there will be LB. Only they will lose.

 

Turning of Dragon has no meaning. Dragon has to rely on Min for clue, callondor for strength, people for fighting the shadow army...turning him to dark is not a military win for shadow..but a slap on creator's face. You should remember who the true enemy is. DO probably is destroying humanity just to spite Creator.

 

 

The Wolves specifically say there will be no LB...so does Rand. I sugegst you read ToM again.

 

Without the dragon there is no LB. The shadow has won.

[Majsju]

Having read the interviews is usually a bonus when it comes to arguing about what RJ has said or not said.

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

 

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_65hcgdp7gw&revision=_latest

[XXX]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

[WhiskyJack]

All of them have one way or the other done more against the Shadow than Egwene either by helping Rand to prepare the armies to fight the LB or fighting the shadow themselves.

 

All Egwene has done which can be termed as fighting the shadow in any way is beat Messana and execute black sisters based of the list give to her by Verin..has she even killed a Trolloc, I don't remember.

 

 

She has killed a Fade. Have fun.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

And how would you know, pray?

[WhiskyJack]

It depends what you mean by equal. Equal in what?

 

In importance to the world..

 

Well then no. Rand is more important to the world than Egwene at the moment. That's part of being the DR.

 

 

Champion of light actually.

[UncleButcher1980]

You guys should probably read this thread before getting too deep into a discussion about whether the Dragon and the Champion of the Light are always the same person.

[XXX]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

And how would you know, pray?

 

Because RJ says so

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

[XXX]

All of them have one way or the other done more against the Shadow than Egwene either by helping Rand to prepare the armies to fight the LB or fighting the shadow themselves.

 

All Egwene has done which can be termed as fighting the shadow in any way is beat Messana and execute black sisters based of the list give to her by Verin..has she even killed a Trolloc, I don't remember.

 

 

She has killed a Fade. Have fun.

 

 

If I remember right Ny was the one who actually balefired the fade but anyway yipeee..one fade in 13 books!!

[Majsju]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

And how would you know, pray?

 

Because RJ says so

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

Perhaps you should look again what that quote actually say, and as a consequence, what it does not say.

[OptimusPrime]

Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

 

 

The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow..either Rand or LTT says that to Isy at some point in the books.

 

Rand and Lews Therin are not all-knowing. RJ has gone on record saying the Dragon has turned to the Shadow before and that it resulted in a draw. Which means the Dark One didnt break free. What that tells us is questionable, but my belief is that any Dark Dragon was of the frame of mind of... a regular Chosen, which was powergreedy and wanting to rule the world and such like, not the frame of mind of Moridin, who wants the world destroyed. If Rand had truly gone to the Shadow in TGS he would have destroyed the Pattern like he almost did in VoG, because this time he had Moridins personality seeping through. If we look at the Chosen as examples of how often the Dark One gets the kind of minion he wants (few and far between) and then look at how often the Dark One gets the Dragon on side (who knows) it kind of paints a picture on just how hard it is for the Dark One to break free. Having the Dragon is a big step because time reality and everything wouldnt be working against the Shadow in the same way, but it still doesnt grant immediate victory, otherwise there wouldnt be a set of books about it because the Pattern would already be gone

[XXX]

RJ says Champion of the Light not the Dragon...they are not always the same.

[XXX]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

And how would you know, pray?

 

Because RJ says so

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

Perhaps you should look again what that quote actually say, and as a consequence, what it does not say.

 

It is pretty clear what the quote says..there is a champion of the light in every age but the dragon soul is not the champion of the light in every age.

[OptimusPrime]

I think its fairly obvious that sometimes people call the Champion of the Light the Dragon by mistake. Its an easy mistake to make because the only two Champions we have known have either been the Dragon or Dragon Reborn. It doesnt need to be said that they are different every single time its said.

[WhiskyJack]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

And how would you know, pray?

 

Because RJ says so

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

Perhaps you should look again what that quote actually say, and as a consequence, what it does not say.

 

It is pretty clear what the quote says..there is a champion of the light in every age but the dragon soul is not the champion of the light in every age.

 

 

And who is the enemy of this Champion of light in every age?