The Creator

[senaat1]

Last night, while on my first read-through of Winter's Heart i wondered why everyone believed in the Creator. There is no sign of him, as far as i know he has no priest-y followers, yet every character believes in him. Even the Athan' Miere, Aiel and the Seanchan (If i recall correctly) believe in him, while they have very little contact with the civilization of Randland (Except the Athan' Miere, they trade with Randlanders).

 

The Dark One is known to be alive, and there's proof. (Forsaken, Nae'blis, etc)

 

 

Maybe the Dark One is the Creator, but he got corrupted somehow. Most likely not.

[WhiskyJack]

This must be like 50th thread basically saying that creator and DO are one and the same. Well atleast you didn't just do copy/paste.

[Superhal]

There's an RJ interview about religion somewhere.

 

But, I think you answered your own question: because there's proof that the DO exists, everybody wants to believe in the Creator.

[senaat1]

I didn't say that the Creator and the Dark One are the same, it is a possibility.

Also, the Wheel of Time, where did people come up with that? They keep talking about "burning a thread out of the Pattern" whenever someone Balefires someone else, but as far as i know there is no factual proof of such a thing existing. How come everyone believes in it, without anybody ever seeing such a thing.

[Gordar]

The wheel of time and the pattern are simply ways to explain circular time and predestined lives. Both of which have been proven to be true (in the WoT universe anyway). Before the idea of the wheel got spread, people envisioned a snake that bit in it's own tail. The Aes Sedai still wear such rings.

[True Source Creator]

The second Scientific Revolution hasn't yet happened. Kind of Christian Dark Ages, just without the religion. People wanting to believe in a God without proof there is one. Silly people.

[Superhal]

I didn't say that the Creator and the Dark One are the same, it is a possibility.

Also, the Wheel of Time, where did people come up with that? They keep talking about "burning a thread out of the Pattern" whenever someone Balefires someone else, but as far as i know there is no factual proof of such a thing existing. How come everyone believes in it, without anybody ever seeing such a thing.

 

Balescream.

[mb]

There are at least several threads about this. And there was a thread from version 7 of this forum speculating like a switch between the 2 entities.

Do not believe either theory.

 

 

The whole balance thing might be an indicator against Creator being Dark One (and vise versa).

 

Dark One being trapped would be another indicator against it.

[Didgya]

The second Scientific Revolution hasn't yet happened. Kind of Christian Dark Ages, just without the religion. People wanting to believe in a God without proof there is one. Silly people.

Silly rabbits creators are for kids!

[Rose]

I had never thought of the question "But how do they know that?" Now I guess on the Darkfriend side it's easier because you have the DO actually speaking to the Forsaken, who in turn can spread the cathechism and all that. But how do they know there IS a Creator? Who told them? Given how the Creator doesn't do anything at all at any time, it's not really necessary to conceive of a creator. They could say the Pattern just is, and the only active force is the Dark One, or something.

 

In our world, the notion of god(s) stems from religions. But the only thing close to religion in Randland is the Dark side. With people swearing themselves to the Shadow and all that. You don't see anyone swearing themselves to the Light, so there isn't really a religion of the Light. The Light seems to be the "default" state. So, where does the notion of a Creator come from? Why do people pray to the Creator? It seems a bit odd.

 

As for the Pattern, I would believe it is a concept that was developed in the Age of Legends to explain reality. Kind of like our theroy of relativity and all that. Given how scientific everything is in the WoT world, it seems realistic. A scientific theory is developed by observing reality, coming up with an explanation for it, then refining or discarding it in favor of another as more observations are made that do or don't fit this explanation. I could see the whole concept of wheel and pattern stemming from such a process. But the Creator? He has absolutely no impact on anything in the world. Makes no sense.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

would a quote person quote the applicable RJ quotes, or copy the link to the thread? i am too sleepy.

 

if you want to search the forums for the other threads on the subject which include the applicable quotes, or check out the quote database at theoryland, you'll save yourselves some headaches.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

One of the smaller but more important goofs RJ made about the series is that he assumed there wouldn't be much by the way of organized religion because the WoT gods took an active role in world events (as opposed, apparently, to the non-role that any alleged real-world gods take)...but then he clearly illustrated a world where there is very little proof of the DO and no proof at all of the Creator--unless you take the white taint on Rand's mind as proof, and even then who else but Nyn knows about it?

 

Remember back in the early story when many people thought that even Trollocs were mythical? Well, just imagine that for the DO. We the readers have had an up-close and personal view of the DO's actions, but the vast majority of people in Randland have not. Their belief in the DO is purely a matter of faith and historical precedent. As the series has progressed and strange things have begun happening (such as the bubbles of evil), people are being confronted with what may as well be natural world phenomena or the result of rogue channelers. And that's the DO, whom we the readers know to be a real deity. When we talk about the Creator, it's even worse.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I was under the impression that RJ somehow equated "proofs" of Creator's existence with channeling, i.e. channeling was a "supernatural" thing that was relatively widespread, so people shouldn't have trouble accepting the existence of the Creator or the Dark One. If magic exists, then why not deities?

 

And it seems that speaking DO's name had some real world effects even before the events in the first book.

[senaat1]

Maybe Rand is the Creator incarnate? The Creater resurfaces as the Dragon Reborn every once in a while, to even out the equation against good ol' Shai'tan and then die, as his goal is fulfilled.

Or maybe, the Dark One and the Creator are, in fact, eachother. Yet there is a third party, who is just observing. And as the Dark One is growing closer to breaking free, he selects his champion (Rand) and his companions (Mat, Perrin) to gather an army and fight the Dark Creator.

[Rose]

PiotrekS: Well, yes, but saying "if magic (or channelling) exists, they why not deities" is not the same as everybody in the entire world being absolutely convinced of the existence of the same Creator. I mean, if it's just a "why not", then people should logically come up with different theories. I don't understand why the existence of the Creator (and the DO, but as I said before, that one's a little more understandable, and besides, people only started believing in him after the bore, when there was actually proof of his existence) is so widespread as a dogma when there doesn't seem to be any reason for it.

 

So, yeah, I basically agree with Emu.

[Superhal]

Well, why do most people in the world believe in deities today?

 

Psychologically, it's natural for people to blame misfortune on some evil entity that wants to harm them. Also naturally, people create an opposite force to help them deal with it. Misfortune is the natural course of human existence, so people are afraid to be at the mercy of an unknown evil force. They create a protector to worship in the hopes that this protector will shield them from the evil.

[Rose]

Yes, I understand that. But in our world, that belief comes with organized religion. There is no such thing in Randland, yet there is an impressive consensus among all its peoples (or the ones we know at least) that there is a Creator, and a Dark One, and that the Dark One is trapped, etc. And it seems pretty clear to me that everybody is talking about the same Creator and Dark One. You don't get that kind of consensus without either some kind of evidence that it is indeed true, or some kind of organized way of teaching and reinforcing it so that people keep believing, and keep believing the exact same thing even in civilizations that have little to no contact with each other. But really, the way these things are presented in WoT, it almost doesn't sound like a belief. The existence and role of the Creator are presented as fact. So I'm eagerly awaiting the moment when the Creator will actually start getting involved, so that this becomes justified (and yes, I'm aware of the whole speculation about what exactly happens at the end of EotW and was that the Creator, but until we have confirmation of that, I'm waiting).

[Superhal]

You don't get that kind of consensus without either some kind of evidence that it is indeed true, or some kind of organized way of teaching and reinforcing it so that people keep believing, and keep believing the exact same thing even in civilizations that have little to no contact with each other.

 

There's no schools in Randland either. Literacy, for example, is passed down from parents to children. I've yet to see how anybody learns math, but apparently accounting is practiced.

 

Also, remember that Randland is very small, maybe a little bigger than Europe. You can ride a horse from the Two Rivers to Tar Valon in like a month. On a ship, it takes about 2 weeks.

[FarShainMael]

The second Scientific Revolution hasn't yet happened. Kind of Christian Dark Ages, just without the religion. People wanting to believe in a God without proof there is one. Silly people.

Silly rabbits creators are for kids!

 

There wouldn't be kids without creators..

[Rose]

There's no schools in Randland either. Literacy, for example, is passed down from parents to children. I've yet to see how anybody learns math, but apparently accounting is practiced.

Yes, I guess I see what you mean. I'm still not completely satisfied, especially as to where all that started in the first place, but well, I don't suppose there's going to be an answer anyway (except if the Creator suddently decides to show up at TG) so I'll have to leave it at that.

[senaat1]

There's no schools in Randland either. Literacy, for example, is passed down from parents to children. I've yet to see how anybody learns math, but apparently accounting is practiced.

Yes, I guess I see what you mean. I'm still not completely satisfied, especially as to where all that started in the first place, but well, I don't suppose there's going to be an answer anyway (except if the Creator suddently decides to show up at TG) so I'll have to leave it at that.

 

But, if the Creator shows up at TG, what's the use of Rand. I am pretty sure that the Creator could give the Dark One a spankin' and send him of scurrying without any repercussion.

Or, maybe the Creator will show up after Rand and the other Randlanders finished the Dark One off, with Rand being killed by the Dark One as a sort of final-revenge act, and the Creator ressurects Rand, but without LTT, and the Dragon's Soul, so he can live the rest of his life in peace.

 

 

 

Or something.

[True Source Creator]

I don't think the Creator needs to be featured in the last book. It would greatly detract from the realism of the books.

 

 

*Sarcasm over*

[Stitch]

Its pretty amazing that belief in 'The Creator' is such a dominant one, considering we have no descriptions of the God's form, personality, morals, goals or what it does... In fact the only thing that we know that people believe is that the Creator is good and that it created everything (hence the name) including the wheel which creates the pattern.

 

Actually there are NO religions in all of the WoT, with the possible exception of Darkfriends, Dragonsworn cultists, Deification of the Empress etc...

[Superhal]

Its pretty amazing that belief in 'The Creator' is such a dominant one, considering we have no descriptions of the God's form, personality, morals, goals or what it does...

 

Same like now. I recently re-read the Bible, and in the old Testament, you couldn't turn around without God telling you what to do next. In the New Testament, he doesn't say a word. I think it was David or somebody in the Old Testament who would excuse himself from meals to talk to God.

 

Oh, in case it wasn't clear: Christianity is based on the New Testament, not the old.

[mb]

Actually, God does speak in the New Testament; Jesus, Apostles, Angels.

 

Christianity, I would say based on both testaments. Directly on the New, indirectly on the Old. New Testament seems based on the Old Testament.