Should Elayne blame Egwene?

[XXX]

Thanks to the Amyrlin's demands the Andor armies are at FoM when the trollocs attack...

Edited July 3, 2011 by XXX47

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

No....

 

I let others argue this out.

[Manscher]

You know, I've been wondering why Egwene have been so insisting that the monarchs should bring the majority of their armies to the field. Surely the Monarchs and various important people from the nations including the required retainers is more then enough. Does she believe that she can intimidate Rand with an massive army?

 

Regarding Andor however, there is the question whether Elayne actually brought her army to FoM, she went to FoM directly from Cairhien it seems, and she only brought a part of the Band with her to Cairhien. So unless she had the Kin open gateways for her army to move from Caemlyn to FoM, the majority should still be in Caemlyn.

[XXX]

You know, I've been wondering why Egwene have been so insisting that the monarchs should bring the majority of their armies to the field. Surely the Monarchs and various important people from the nations including the required retainers is more then enough. Does she believe that she can intimidate Rand with an massive army?

 

Regarding Andor however, there is the question whether Elayne actually brought her army to FoM, she went to FoM directly from Cairhien it seems, and she only brought a part of the Band with her to Cairhien. So unless she had the Kin open gateways for her army to move from Caemlyn to FoM, the majority should still be in Caemlyn.

 

Obviously that is her play..see her insistence that Tear and Illian bring their armies. So it makes sense that she asked Elayne to bring her army as well.

[Himiko]

No- I'm sure Egwene wanted Elayne to bring the majority of her armies to the FoM meeting, given what she was telling other rulers, and I'm sure as Elayne is an AS, and Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat, Elayne will probably have done just that, however, as Queen of both Andor and Cairhien, it is her duty to look out for her people, first and foremost, and to choose where to deploy her forces. Other monarchs have obviously refused Egwene, otherwise she wouldn't be trying to persuade them. We don't even know that Elayne has done so. It may be that Elayne decides that being a ruler and an Aes Sedai is a conflict of interests, and chooses to retire from the White Tower as a result of this attack. Who knows?

 

I'm not saying that its a great idea for Egwene to tell all the rulers to bring all their armies to persuade Rand, when half of them have Seanchan on their doorstep, and the Borderlands are being overrun with Trollocs. She certainly has no right to think about removing legitimate rulers simply because they disagree with her. But it is up to those rulers to deal with their countries, in this case, Elayne.

[Muad Cheade]

I believe the reasoning behind bringing the rulers armies is to quickly address the situation in the Blight once the talks with Rand have concluded.

 

Egwene is not at blame. Neither is Elayne. Possibly Rand might be at fault. Elayne did know Andor would be invaded so she beefed up the borders. She could not know the Shadow would come through the waygate.

[Manscher]

Why wait until AFTER the meeting with sending support to the Borderlands? No, she clearly wants to use them to intimidate Rand, which truly baffles me. She mentions him forcing her hand, does she intent to use force against Rand and his followers? Fighting among each other when TG for all practicality have already begun and the Borderlands being overrun are just idiocy.

 

And how can you put Rand at fault for the invasion? He put guards on the Waygate when he was in control of Caemlyn, but Elayne was rather quick at throwing out anything related to Rand as soon as she entered the city. Which I suppose includes the guards at the Waygate and I doubt she replaced those.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Manscher

[Muad Cheade]

Why wait until AFTER the meeting with sending support to the Borderlands? No, she clearly wants to use them to intimidate Rand, which truly baffles me. She mentions him forcing her hand, does she intent to use force against Rand and his followers? Fighting among each other when TG for all practicality have already begun and the Borderlands being overrun are just idiocy.

The Tower does not have nearly enough soldiers to help with the Borderlands. At the Field of Merrilor, Egwene can both try to change Rand's mind as well as organize the defense.

 

And how can you put Rand at fault for the invasion? He put guards on the Waygate when he was in control of Caemlyn, but Elayne was rather quick at throwing out anything related to Rand as soon as she entered the city. Which I suppose includes the guards at the Waygate and I doubt she replaced those.

Rand did not destroy the Waygate nor did he use the weave he did on the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. As simple as that. Of course she would. She can't be seen as accepting the throne from Rand as that would do away with her legitimacy but that's another argument.

[Manscher]

The Tower does not have nearly enough soldiers to help with the Borderlands. At the Field of Merrilor, Egwene can both try to change Rand's mind as well as organize the defense.

The Tower constantly boast about it's power and how it can make monarchs jump when they say frog, yet you are trying to tell me that they aren't able to organize sending armies or at least sisters to the borderlands to aid the defends? No, it seems rather obvious she intends to use the armies to "force" Rand in the case he wont dance on her leash, she even thinks about replacing Darlin because he wont move his entire army there in fear of the Seanchan.

 

Now, my question is, how on earth does she hope to achieve that goal? intimidating Rand and/or "force" him with armies that are for all practical purpose sworn to him?

 

 

Rand did not destroy the Waygate nor did he use the weave he did on the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. As simple as that. Of course she would. She can't be seen as accepting the throne from Rand as that would do away with her legitimacy but that's another argument.

 

I'm not saying she should've accepted his help, I agree with her decision there, I'm just merely pointing out that he had put guards at them, and I doubt they were ever replaced after she came into power. Rand can hardly be at fault there really, last he was in control of the city the Waygate was as safe as he could make it. Putting on the ward would really serve no purpose in Caemlyn, as it would still give the Trollocs plenty of time to slaughter the citizens, and he didn't have any means to destroy the Waygate until long after Elayne took control of the city. So guards was by far the best solution, she just didn't replace those.

[Superhal]

Imho, I think the true reason Camelyn is defenseless at the end of ToM is Mat. He should have opened the letter weeks before. Even days or hours would have made the difference.

[MasterAblar]

Imho, I think the true reason Camelyn is defenseless at the end of ToM is Mat. He should have opened the letter weeks before. Even days or hours would have made the difference.

 

Isn't it sort of Verin's fault then? She completely misjudged Mat on this occasion.

 

Besides why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne?

[Superhal]

Imho, I think the true reason Camelyn is defenseless at the end of ToM is Mat. He should have opened the letter weeks before. Even days or hours would have made the difference.

 

Isn't it sort of Verin's fault then? She completely misjudged Mat on this occasion.

 

Besides why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne?

 

Yeah, wasn't Verin in Camelyn?

[XXX]

Does Egwene think that her word is more important than the Dragon's?...I mean what did she hope to achieve by asking the rulers to bring their armies to FoM.

 

Poor Gawyn..he is married to a fool!!

[XXX]

Imho, I think the true reason Camelyn is defenseless at the end of ToM is Mat. He should have opened the letter weeks before. Even days or hours would have made the difference.

 

Isn't it sort of Verin's fault then? She completely misjudged Mat on this occasion.

 

Besides why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne?

 

Yeah, wasn't Verin in Camelyn?

 

No AS was allowed into the palace..Joline and the other 2 AS with Mat were also denied entry.

[MasterAblar]

Imho, I think the true reason Camelyn is defenseless at the end of ToM is Mat. He should have opened the letter weeks before. Even days or hours would have made the difference.

 

Isn't it sort of Verin's fault then? She completely misjudged Mat on this occasion.

 

Besides why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne?

 

Yeah, wasn't Verin in Camelyn?

 

No AS was allowed into the palace..Joline and the other 2 AS with Mat were also denied entry.

 

Wasn't that just because there was no place to sleep?

[Superhal]

Imho, I think the true reason Camelyn is defenseless at the end of ToM is Mat. He should have opened the letter weeks before. Even days or hours would have made the difference.

 

Isn't it sort of Verin's fault then? She completely misjudged Mat on this occasion.

 

Besides why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne?

 

Yeah, wasn't Verin in Camelyn?

 

No AS was allowed into the palace..Joline and the other 2 AS with Mat were also denied entry.

 

Wasn't that just because there was no place to sleep?

 

Maybe somebody can look it up, but Verin's time in Camelyn (with the Two Rivers girls) was different (well before?) than Nynaeve returning with hundreds of Kin.

[XXX]

 

 

Wasn't that just because there was no place to sleep?

 

I think after the black sisters kidnap attempt, they refused entry to all other AS...what does audience with the queen having anything to do with lodging.

[Apple13]

Elayne agreed to Egwene's plans, so by rights, it's her responsibility as Queen to deal with her city's safety while she's away. Egwene didn't kidnap her away to the FOM. Not really Egwene's fault since she didn't know that the Trollocs would attack. And the Band is on hand nearby to help out anyways, so, I doubt the city is going to get destroyed or anything.

 

Besides, Elayne has done sillier things.

[XXX]

Only 1/2 the band is there...Mat might save the day if he gets back in time. Once again it will be Mat saving the "mighty" AS.

[Apple13]

Only 1/2 the band is there...Mat might save the day if he gets back in time. Once again it will be Mat saving the "mighty" AS.

 

Mighty AS? What mighty AS? It's the innocent civilians that need saving, not the mighty AS.

 

And 1/2 the band might be able to save the day. We don't really know how big the Trollic force is in Caemlyn.

[Superhal]

Found a reference: currently there are just under 30k total in the Band.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Toy'varen

[David Selig]

 

 

Wasn't that just because there was no place to sleep?

 

I think after the black sisters kidnap attempt, they refused entry to all other AS...what does audience with the queen having anything to do with lodging.

Joline was most probably denied audience because she was one of those Aes Sedai who sided with Elaida, since the Tower hasn't been united yet at this point.

 

As for the original question - I don't think so. It's not shown onscreen, but it seems coming to Merrilor was Elayne's decision and Egwene didn't try to order her to bring Andor's armies there or to bully her, she just asked her and Elayne decided that's the best course of action.

[XXX]

And what exactly did Elayne hope to accomplish if it was her own decision by bringing her amry to FoM. I can imagine Egwene being crazy enough to think she can take on the dragon..Elayne knows she is not equal to the Dragon. Both her kingdoms are gifts from the Dragon.

[Apple13]

And what exactly did Elayne hope to accomplish if it was her own decision by bringing her amry to FoM. I can imagine Egwene being crazy enough to think she can take on the dragon..Elayne knows she is not equal to the Dragon. Both her kingdoms are gifts from the Dragon.

 

Cairhien was a "gift" from Rand. Andor wasn't. Elayne had to work for Andor. Facts that were established several times in the book.

 

And they're not at the FOM to fight Rand, but to reason with him.

 

Anyways, we're getting off topic here. Original post was whether it was Egwene's fault. I conclude my posts by saying that Elayne is a monarch and as such, is responsible for the decisions she makes about her kingdom.

[XXX]

Why do you need armies to reason?