graendal ethics / tuon compulsion

[Lama Chemist Ho]

so I finished the gathering storm the other day and have to say I really enjoyed it, I like how sanderson is less wordy and gets to the point a lot quicker altho I do think a few of the characters were a tiny bit different than they would have been under jordan, yet I still could hardly put it down. I loved egwene's end...just wish she'd been a little more patient and waited til she was back in the tower to crack down on the black ajah like that (tho I guess if she had got them all there wouldn't be enough dreadlords or whatever for the last battle). rand's end was a little more anticlimactic, I mean he thought for a while and had an epiphany? I kept thinking "veins of gold" meant aviendha was going to come back as his equal and talk some sense into him, after all didn't she coin that phrase in book 9. or I thought maybe right before he started destroying everything he would suddenly feel through the bond elayne giving birth his son and daughter and that would somehow melt him and remind him of the 'why', altho I guess enough time hasn't really passed yet for that. so here's my random questions:

 

rand's defeat of graendal- ethical or unethical? if it was true what he said about everyone she keeps close to her being zombies of her will and only remaining alive as such, which was sort of corroborated by the scenes with kerb as well as past scenes with graendal and her compulsion-slaves, than I don't know. what else could / should they have done? maybe tried to go in in disguises of illusion and single out just her, somehow in case any of the others weren't beyond redemption?

 

2) was evil-rand using compulsion on tuon? in the scene from her point of view right before she ultimately refused his truce, the particular nature of the wording made it really sound like it to me (ie every fiber of her being wanted to do what he asked, or something) or was that just ta'veren-tugging like when he first met with the sea folk?

[Superhal]

1. Read ToM. :) I must say it was pretty clever, but yes unethical. Imho, his reasoning was that everyone in the tower was under compulsion so heavy that removing it would have killed them anyway, but as we see from ToM, that wasn't true. If even one of Graendal's servants wasn't under compulsion, he shouldn't have killed all of them.

 

2. It was ta'veren work, but tuon could see the darkness caused by rand using the true power.

[Goldstar]

Not necissarily... If one of her servants weren't under compulsion, that means they were Darkfriends...

[Superhal]

Not necissarily... If one of her servants weren't under compulsion, that means they were Darkfriends...

 

Ethically, I don't know if it's OK for the forces of the Light to automatically kill DF's. Throughout the books, the only times DF's were killed by the good guys were in self-defense. Even known DF's, like Hadan Kadre (peddler in the Waste,) were allowed to live as long as they didn't attack anyone. Padan Fain wasn't going to be executed either when he was held in Tear. The only example I know of where DF's were automatically killed without provocation by the good guys was the cleansing of BA's in Salidar.

[Lama Chemist Ho]

1. Read ToM.

 

tell that to my post office / amazon! oh man so you're saying graendal actually outsmarted him somehow? (nevermind I don't want to know)

 

yes I guess the death penalty isn't automatically used for darkfriends in their world (not by all at least) I was surprised by egwene at that as well. its also possible some of those working for graendal may simply not have known she was a forsaken, after all jobs were probably hard to come by and most probably figured, why ask questions? what they should do is give them all to the wise ones to be made da'tsang until they request to be beaten every day

 

wait...they knew kadere was a darkfriend before lanfear killed him? I don't remember that...

[Manscher]

Only Rand knew they were darkfriends and he kept it secret to protect Asmodean. Rand mentions a couple of times that he thought it was wrong that Kadere escaped justice, but he had to do it.

[OptimusPrime]

2) was evil-rand using compulsion on tuon? in the scene from her point of view right before she ultimately refused his truce, the particular nature of the wording made it really sound like it to me (ie every fiber of her being wanted to do what he asked, or something) or was that just ta'veren-tugging like when he first met with the sea folk?

 

Not Compulsion. Rand can bend the Pattern to his will. In some cases it happens subconsciously (ala the rotting food and such like, the land is one with the Dragon) but he can also do it consciously, TGS showed it more than once. The first that I remember being when he pulled a name out of the mindless boy. The confrontation with Tuon felt very similar to both that boy scene AND to when Rand first met with Ituralde; Ituralde noted there was a force about Rand, IMO it was simply Rand bending the Pattern to his will. The only difference is that he wasnt evil when he did it to Ituralde.

 

Long story short he can control his Ta'veren twist to some degree.

 

"Do you believe that I could kill you?" Dark Rand ftw!

[Kahsm]

It was something more like:

 

"Do you not think if I willed your heart to stop, the pattern would not oblige me?"

 

Which is an awesome bad-ass statement but completely untrue. Just "Bombast Rand" as he has become IMO. Similar to WT scene, and scene with borderlander leaders. I'm unconvinced he can do half of what he either claims, or thinks he can do. However, I assume being badass like that helps bend people even more than just his Ta'veren-ness. Hopefully someone calls his bluff and we get to see what he i actually capable of.

 

Though I guess if the OP (hrm that acronym doesn't work so well on WOT forums, original poster) hasn't read TOM we should shut up lol. So hard to discuss, even the way we reflect on events form TGS will be flavoured by knowledge of what happens in TOM.

 

(And as an aside, that happens to parallel my argument as to why memories in Rand make him very different than the same memories in LTT! Perspective.)

 

Edit: removed form possible TOM spoiler details.

[Gordar]

2) was evil-rand using compulsion on tuon? in the scene from her point of view right before she ultimately refused his truce, the particular nature of the wording made it really sound like it to me (ie every fiber of her being wanted to do what he asked, or something) or was that just ta'veren-tugging like when he first met with the sea folk?

 

Not Compulsion. Rand can bend the Pattern to his will. In some cases it happens subconsciously (ala the rotting food and such like, the land is one with the Dragon) but he can also do it consciously, TGS showed it more than once. The first that I remember being when he pulled a name out of the mindless boy. The confrontation with Tuon felt very similar to both that boy scene AND to when Rand first met with Ituralde; Ituralde noted there was a force about Rand, IMO it was simply Rand bending the Pattern to his will. The only difference is that he wasnt evil when he did it to Ituralde.

 

Long story short he can control his Ta'veren twist to some degree.

 

"Do you believe that I could kill you?" Dark Rand ftw!

 

 

It was something more like:

 

"Do you not think if I willed your heart to stop, the pattern would not oblige me?"

 

Which is an awesome bad-ass statement but completely untrue. Just "Bombast Rand" as he has become IMO. Similar to WT scene, and scene with borderlander leaders. I'm unconvinced he can do half of what he either claims, or thinks he can do. However, I assume being badass like that helps bend people even more than just his Ta'veren-ness. Hopefully someone calls his bluff and we get to see what he i actually capable of.

 

Though I guess if the OP (hrm that acronym doesn't work so well on WOT forums, original poster) hasn't read TOM we should shut up lol. So hard to discuss, even the way we reflect on events form TGS will be flavoured by knowledge of what happens in TOM.

 

(And as an aside, that happens to parallel my argument as to why memories in Rand make him very different than the same memories in LTT! Perspective.)

 

Edit: removed form possible TOM spoiler details.

 

Finally someone who agrees with me that Rand cannot use his ta'veren being at will.

 

Just think about it. Ta'veren are created to put threads back in their proper place. If ta'veren had the power to use their ability at will, it'd do more damage than good and would eventually rip the pattern apart.

 

Rand believed he could, but Rand also believed he had to kill the DO, he also believed that Selene was a nice woman, he also believed he had killed the DO (twice) and until his epiphany he believed he had to be hard to be strong. Simply put, Rand believed and probably believes a lot of things that aren't true.

 

Besides, concerning the boy, not even Rand himself believes he's using his ta'verennes on the boy.

 

"I did nothing, Nynaeve. I suspect that once you removed that Compulsion, the only thing keeping him alive was his anger at Graendal, buried deeply. Whatever bit of himself remained, it knew the only help it could give were those two words. After that, he just let go. There was nothing more we could do for him."

[Superhal]

Sure, ta'veren can be used at will. Mat does it all the time when dicing, Perrin used it on purpose on Galad, and Rand used it when they portal-stoned to Rhiudean.

[True Source Creator]

Isn't Graendal like...not dead? In which case, I consider what Rand did pretty unethical, because it solved nothing.

 

I haven't gotten far past that scene yet, so I don't quite know how she escaped or why the Compulsion went away, but Rand did say she's smart and tricky and also rather cowardly. I guess I'll RAFO, but I know for certain she's in the prologue to ToM....cause I kind of saw that for some reason.

[Superhal]

Yep, keep reading. :)

[Manscher]

Sure, ta'veren can be used at will. Mat does it all the time when dicing, Perrin used it on purpose on Galad, and Rand used it when they portal-stoned to Rhiudean.

 

His luck doesn't seem to have anything to do with him being Ta'veren, but rather his connection with Shadar Logoth. Slayer mentions that Fain has the Dark Ones own luck in TSR.

As for Perrin, he doesn't use it on purpose, he just knew it was in effect there.

 

No Ta'veren can bend the pattern to their will, Ta'verens are bend and forced by the pattern itself to do the things required to keep balance.

So it's really rather silly of Siuan and Egwene to complain that Nynaeve is under Rands Ta'veren influence. If she was, then it's the will of the wheel, in which case they should just accept Rands decision since it's destined to happen.

[Superhal]

Sure, ta'veren can be used at will. Mat does it all the time when dicing, Perrin used it on purpose on Galad, and Rand used it when they portal-stoned to Rhiudean.

 

His luck doesn't seem to have anything to do with him being Ta'veren, but rather his connection with Shadar Logoth. Slayer mentions that Fain has the Dark Ones own luck in TSR.

As for Perrin, he doesn't use it on purpose, he just knew it was in effect there.

 

No Ta'veren can bend the pattern to their will, Ta'verens are bend and forced by the pattern itself to do the things required to keep balance.

So it's really rather silly of Siuan and Egwene to complain that Nynaeve is under Rands Ta'veren influence. If she was, then it's the will of the wheel, in which case they should just accept Rands decision since it's the will of the wheel.

 

Maybe we're talking about two different things here: I'm saying ta'veren can "use it at will" (when they want to.) I think you're saying that they can't choose the result. Both can be true simultaneously and aren't mutually exclusive.

[Manscher]

If they could use it at will, why not use it more often? Even if the pattern didn't want them to do what they tried, the person under the ta'veren effect would still feel the symptoms of having been under it. So no, I don't think they can use it at will, but rather they are starting to learn when it kicks in, perhaps even able to predict what situations it will occur in, but they can't use it at will. Ta'verens are a tool of the wheel, tools to protect the wheel itself and maintain the balance of the pattern, it's not an ability given to a person so he or she can gain great prestige or power.

[Suttree]

Sure, ta'veren can be used at will. Mat does it all the time when dicing, Perrin used it on purpose on Galad, and Rand used it when they portal-stoned to Rhiudean.

 

Mat's luck and him being ta'veren are two separate things...

[Superhal]

So no, I don't think they can use it at will, but rather they are starting to learn when it kicks in, perhaps even able to predict what situations it will occur in, but they can't use it at will.

 

That would explain my examples, but how about:

 

1. Zen Rand meeting with Egwene where everybody else in the room could feel the ta'veren effect except Egwene.

 

2. The Dark Rand meeting with the (real) Tuon, and she could resist the effect.

 

3. Claustrophobic Rand meeting the Windfinders.

 

In all three cases, he knew ta'veren would work in his favor before each meeting. In meeting Tuon, he not only "turned on" ta'varen by standing up and putting his hand on the table, he seemed disappointed when it didn't. Claustrophobic Rand knew the effect would end if he left the room.

[Superhal]

Sure, ta'veren can be used at will. Mat does it all the time when dicing, Perrin used it on purpose on Galad, and Rand used it when they portal-stoned to Rhiudean.

 

Mat's luck and him being ta'veren are two separate things...

 

I would argue that the whole sequence of dicing with Tuon was where they coincided (he lost the last toss which gave him an excuse to leave just in time to avoid being ambushed.) I agree that some of Mat's luck is not ta'veren, but it seems that quite often it is (e.g. the dice in the ToG, the snake-finns calling him "Trickster," the hunt for Rahvin's assassin, when coins land on edge, etc.)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

the ta'veren are the ones being acted upon by the wheel via, for lack of a better word, their ta'veren-ness. they may learn to predict the effects, but they don't control it at will. if i'm in a sailboat, and i tack into the wind, it doesn't mean i'm controlling the wind. (um, i don't really know anything about sailboats. hope the metaphor works.)

[Gordar]

Sure, ta'veren can be used at will. Mat does it all the time when dicing, Perrin used it on purpose on Galad, and Rand used it when they portal-stoned to Rhiudean.

 

Actually, Mat may be aware of his ta'veren 'power' ( being lucky), but he has no control over it, it just happens. It's why he refuses to play dice sometimes, simply because he knows that he has no control over his luck and that he could get into awkward situations if he did throw said dice.

 

I honestly don't know which scene concerning Perrin and Galad you're talking about. Are you talking about the trial? The battle against the trollocks? Everything I've read seemed quite natural & most certainly not out of the ordinary to me. His Ta'veren effect is to influence people. It constantly happens, whether he wants it or not. It's not something he's consiously influencing or has any control over. The only thing he could do to control it is to stay away from people.

 

The same could be said about Rand using the portal stone to Rhuidean. The only thing he did was guess which sign he had to use. He might just have guessed correctly (there was a 50% chance of guessing the correct sign), or it might have been a very early memory of Lews Therin (although I don't know how he could have known) or it might indeed have been some ta'veren effect. Still, he didn't consiously want to know the sign, he just suddenly knew. I hardly call that using the ta'veren effect.

[Superhal]

Actually, Mat may be aware of his ta'veren 'power' ( being lucky), but he has no control over it, it just happens. It's why he refuses to play dice sometimes, simply because he knows that he has no control over his luck and that he could get into awkward situations if he did throw said dice.

 

He purposely used it in the ToG to find Moiraine.

 

I honestly don't know which scene concerning Perrin and Galad you're talking about.

 

Where Galad agrees to follow Perrin's command, and then Perrin tells him to rest because he knows the effect of ta'veren.

 

The same could be said about Rand using the portal stone to Rhuidean. The only thing he did was guess which sign he had to use. He might just have guessed correctly (there was a 50% chance of guessing the correct sign), or it might have been a very early memory of Lews Therin (although I don't know how he could have known) or it might indeed have been some ta'veren effect. Still, he didn't consiously want to know the sign, he just suddenly knew. I hardly call that using the ta'veren effect.

 

This scene, actually, makes a perfect logical support for my argument. We know that some of Mat's luck is because of Shadar Logoth, as beforehand, he wasn't dominating with dice (being strapped for losing two silver marks to a merchant) but he was dominating (leaving Tar Valon) before his encounter with the finns. However, Rand does not have the same Shadar Logoth experience, therefore his comment ("It has to work for me sometime.") means that some of Mat's luck (particularly about choices) is influenced by his ta'eren-ness, and Rand's ta'veren-ness should also influence chance.

 

In other words:

Rand = ta'veren - Shadar Logoth = lucky.

Mat = ta'veren + Shadar Logoth = lucky.

Therefore, ta'veren = lucky.

[Gordar]

Yes and no. Mat is aware of him being lucky and when needed, he surrenders to it so to speak. He doesn't have the ability to turn it off or to aim it.

 

Compare it to someone who smells terribly 24/7 & can't get rid of the smell. Such a person has a few options. He can stand downwind, he can stand in crowds when he wants to see something & still have enough room to be able to move around & he might get a job where his smell isn't noticed. If he wants people to move close to him, there's nothing he can do to affect his smell. So he's not in control of his smell and he can't use it the way he wants to, only in the way the smell was meant to.

 

The same applies to Perrin.

 

Rand's ta'verennes works differently, as is shown multiple times in the books. Yes it has to do with chance, but mostly unlikely things happening. People falling and surviving, even though they shouldn't, people who hate eachother marrying, etc. None of these effects are as direct as the example you posted, thus the chance that it's Rand's ta'verennes is pretty small and chances are that it's just him guessing correctly (I could have guessed correctly if I had 50% chance and I'm not ta'veren). Just because Rand says something doesn't make it true. He's been wrong on multiple occasions.

 

Besides, none of the ta'veren showed any sign of being ta'veren before Shadar Logoth as far as I remember.

[Superhal]

 

Besides, none of the ta'veren showed any sign of being ta'veren before Shadar Logoth as far as I remember.

 

Looking back, Lan, Moiraine, and Thom all arriving in the Two Rivers on Winternight Eve just in time to counter Fain's trolloc attack seems to smack of ta'veren need pulling.

[Kal11]

Isn't Graendal like...not dead? In which case, I consider what Rand did pretty unethical, because it solved nothing.

 

I haven't gotten far past that scene yet, so I don't quite know how she escaped or why the Compulsion went away, but Rand did say she's smart and tricky and also rather cowardly. I guess I'll RAFO, but I know for certain she's in the prologue to ToM....cause I kind of saw that for some reason.

 

To make a blanket statement sans specific details he did accomplish something with his actions. Ethically speaking I don't see a problem with it, as it is made clear Graendal does not keep anyone around who is not heavily compelled. Rand gave them a get out of jail early card and sped them on their way to rebirth in a new life free of compulsion for the amusement of a Forsaken. Even if say hypothetically there were non-DFs that were not compelled it is a matter of breaking a few eggs to make an omelette. Many innocent and even noble people have and are going to die in service to the Light for the Last Battle. If Joe the woodcutter and Jane the maid die in the killing of a Forsaken it is a fair trade in my book.

[Gordar]

 

Besides, none of the ta'veren showed any sign of being ta'veren before Shadar Logoth as far as I remember.

 

Looking back, Lan, Moiraine, and Thom all arriving in the Two Rivers on Winternight Eve just in time to counter Fain's trolloc attack seems to smack of ta'veren need pulling.

 

The Ta'veren effect doesn't have an unlimited range, so Moiraine, Lan and even Thom must already have been in the Two Rivers and probably also close to Emonds field for it to have any effect. Since the only reason to be close to Emonds Field is to actually go there, I don't think it's likely that there was a ta'veren effect at all.