Logain´s Pet

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ok, you're just asking for a spanking now.

[yoniy0]

cindy, it's not about RJ's intending to describe sexual assault, at least not for me. It's about his believing this plotline to be just what you propose, and yet managing to describe a severe form of sexual assault (not restricted to a single event, combined with other forms of mental abuse, and finally the use of weaponry). It says something about his conceptions.

 

I have to say, the WoT aside, it's troubling to read folks stating that a man cannot be raped (or just about) by a woman. Or things that seriously make me wonder if they ever heard the phrase "no means no". Hopefully, none of that is mirrored in real life.

 

Take it from someone who's heard a few victims talk about their experiences - your natural response isn't outrage and a calculated approach to avoiding further abuse; it's shame and submissiveness. Both of which Mat actually presented, which is the only reason I might think RJ was aware of what he was writing. Yet I ultimately share your analysis of what he intended to do.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

cindy, it's not about RJ's intending to describe sexual assault, at least not for me. It's about his believing this plotline to be just what you propose, and yet managing to describe a severe form of sexual assault (not restricted to a single event, combined with other forms of mental abuse, and finally the use of weaponry). It says something about his conceptions.

 

I have to say, the WoT aside, it's troubling to read folks stating that a man cannot be raped (or just about) by a woman. Or things that seriously make me wonder if they ever heard the phrase "no means no". Hopefully, none of that is mirrored in real life.

 

Take it from someone who's heard a few victims talk about their experiences - your natural response isn't outrage and a calculated approach to avoiding further abuse; it's shame and submissiveness. Both of which Mat actually presented, which is the only reason I might think RJ was aware of what he was writing. Yet I ultimately share your analysis of what he intended to do.

 

 

yes, i see that it strikes a real world chord, and i apologize for poking a sore spot. not what i intended. for the record, i don't believe that men cannot be raped. and as i said, if mat were a real person, and these things really happened to him, he would have been a victim of sexual assault. but i don't think RJ believed he was writing that story. and this may be a generational thing, but it wasn't all that long ago when most people would not see the situation in the way it is seen today. just as we did not see sexual harassment and assault of women the way they see it today (check out mad men for some very good, and very realistic examples). RJ was of a generation that likely would, for the most part, have considered mat to have "gotten lucky." times change, but people don't always change with them. i see a lot of these kinds of scenes as russ meyer moments.

 

but i will be good and leave the nice posters alone now, sorry.

[yoniy0]

Oh heavens no, spank away. Haven't had a good spanking in years, myself

 

BTW I read the story the same way you did. It took someone to point out what I was reading for me to take note, which is troubling in itself. But that doesn't make the WoT a comment about the nature of sexual assault, and I don't think it should be read as such. It's just fun to sometime analyze RJ's writing, is all.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i guess i worked this sort of thing out for myself by embracing dickens (and many more) despite the antisemitism (which sickens me, and took a deal of work to get past). but noah was a good man in his time, and so was dickens. and to me, so was RJ, though the times keep changing.

[Suttree]

it's not about RJ's intending to describe sexual assault, at least not for me. It's about his believing this plotline to be just what you propose, and yet managing to describe a severe form of sexual assault (not restricted to a single event, combined with other forms of mental abuse, and finally the use of weaponry). It says something about his conceptions.

 

This 100%

[Puny]

if i have to show you the bondage, i don't think we're reading the same books. how many ways do people get tied up in this series? bent double, and backwards, and inside out. tethered with leashes, and with the power, adn with. . . seriously, you don't see bondage? this surprises me, but OK, whatever.

 

and i think it's fair to say after the 10th, or 50th, or 150th spanking, written in vivid detail, and with obvious relish, that we can safely assume the author was into it.

 

if you really think the author's intent was to describe rape, and stockholm syndrome, with mat, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

 

it's just that you've stated exactly the opposite when responding to . . . well, pretty much anyone else, actually. right up thread.

 

but that's fine, too.

 

... I am entitled to my opinon.

 

 

yes, as i've said, see, i bolded it. and i've said it before.

 

i'm calling a unilateral cease fire with you. you do as you like.

 

It´s all good.

[RyanL24]

Alright, my bad... men can be raped by women. After a lot of research, I have lots of opinions, but they aren't very PC and I'm confident that none of you would agree with them or even want to hear them.

 

I will acknowledge that it is widely accepted that men can be raped my women, and I was wrong about that.

 

I also have to say that I have a new admiration for my incredible control over erectile function and my ability to discreetly let a woman know I am not interested in their sexual advances. Yay me! Someday I might try to find a 6'2" 230 lb lady who can manhandle me and tell her no, and see what happens. Could get interesting.

[FarShainMael]

i guess i worked this sort of thing out for myself by embracing dickens (and many more) despite the antisemitism (which sickens me, and took a deal of work to get past). but noah was a good man in his time, and so was dickens. and to me, so was RJ, though the times keep changing.

 

There was a lot I didn't like aboout Dickens - many of his characters were (to me) cringingly 'over the top'. (And I don't mean Uriah Heep.) My dad said that they were deliberate caricatures to emphasise the social comments Dickens was making. At the time that didn't help much.. but with the benefit of hindsight and a bit of maturity I think I can see what he was driving at.

 

But that's a whole new topic..

 

Biology warning..

 

 

@RyanL24: I'm female. I'm also married. I have a lot of difficulty with the idea of men being raped by women. Seduced, certainly. Elsewhere it was pointed out that you don't have to be aroused for intercourse to take place, and this is certainly true for women - but surely a manhas to be aroused in order to achieve and maintain an erection. So physiologically, how is female rape of men even possible?

 

[Didgya]

The complicated situation with Mat and Tylin happen all the time with no one hurt or traumatized in the real world. So many strange things happen tied to our sexuality. Its complicated and if it doesn't hurt anybody ,it's funny a lot of the time.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i believe most of the explanations of this phenomenon were in this thread, and i'm hoping posting the link saves some misery all around. it won't, but i'm hoping it does. starts out slow, and gains momentum toward the end. if you search the forum for "sexual assault," you will likely find similar threads.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/58302-who-do-you-feel-most-sorry-for/

[SuperFade]

 

Biology warning..

 

 

@RyanL24: I'm female. I'm also married. I have a lot of difficulty with the idea of men being raped by women. Seduced, certainly. Elsewhere it was pointed out that you don't have to be aroused for intercourse to take place, and this is certainly true for women - but surely a manhas to be aroused in order to achieve and maintain an erection. So physiologically, how is female rape of men even possible?

 

 

 

Arousal has nothing to do with it though, it's an issue of consent. In my mind, if a person says no to sex then that's the end of it and the other party should respect their wishes regardless of gender. Involuntary erections are not uncommon, as myself and other male forum goers can attest. We all like to have a good laugh about morning wood, but in the end if you give it enough attention it's going to get hard no matter what situation you're in.

 

[senaat1]

I'm just relieved that Suttee confirmed my reading of the passage in question, thus reassuring me that I am not a pervert who sees sex everywhere.

 

Or at least, that if I am such a pervert, I'm not alone.

 

You are not alone.

I have read many parts where i thought "...Did he/she just have an orgasm?". But i always thought it was my perverted teenage mind. I was mistaken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dum dum dummm.

[senaat1]

 

Biology warning..

 

 

@RyanL24: I'm female. I'm also married. I have a lot of difficulty with the idea of men being raped by women. Seduced, certainly. Elsewhere it was pointed out that you don't have to be aroused for intercourse to take place, and this is certainly true for women - but surely a manhas to be aroused in order to achieve and maintain an erection. So physiologically, how is female rape of men even possible?

 

 

 

Arousal has nothing to do with it though, it's an issue of consent. In my mind, if a person says no to sex then that's the end of it and the other party should respect their wishes regardless of gender. Involuntary erections are not uncommon, as myself and other male forum goers can attest. We all like to have a good laugh about morning wood, but in the end if you give it enough attention it's going to get hard no matter what situation you're in.

 

 

True dat. Very much. Especially teenagers.

 

 

Also, did you know that morningwood is a way to prevent yourself from wetting yourself and bed while asleep?

Yeah.

[Puny]

 

Biology warning..

 

 

@RyanL24: I'm female. I'm also married. I have a lot of difficulty with the idea of men being raped by women. Seduced, certainly. Elsewhere it was pointed out that you don't have to be aroused for intercourse to take place, and this is certainly true for women - but surely a manhas to be aroused in order to achieve and maintain an erection. So physiologically, how is female rape of men even possible?

 

 

 

Arousal has nothing to do with it though, it's an issue of consent. In my mind, if a person says no to sex then that's the end of it and the other party should respect their wishes regardless of gender. Involuntary erections are not uncommon, as myself and other male forum goers can attest. We all like to have a good laugh about morning wood, but in the end if you give it enough attention it's going to get hard no matter what situation you're in.

 

 

True dat. Very much. Especially teenagers.

 

 

Also, did you know that morningwood is a way to prevent yourself from wetting yourself and bed while asleep?

Yeah.

 

Lol.. fascinating things we learn in this thread.

[randsc]

Actually, an involuntary erection is a common response to fear, and even pain. We often see it in vehicle collisions. It is a complicating factor because priapism is also an indicator of a spinal injury.

[Puny]

Actually, an involuntary erection is a common response to fear, and even pain. We often see it in vehicle collisions. It is a complicating factor because priapism is also an indicator of a spinal injury.

 

And this can shed new light on the whole Tylin/Mat-matter.

[mbuehner]

If arousal is the equivalent of consent than every man alive is a cheater thousands of times over, every woman as well. Worse, every woman raped who's body betrays them (no need to go into more detail) wasn't, in fact, raped. Which is horrifying. We aren't animals, just because our body gives consent doesn't mean our minds do.

[Puny]

If arousal is the equivalent of consent than every man alive is a cheater thousands of times over, every woman as well. Worse, every woman raped who's body betrays them (no need to go into more detail) wasn't, in fact, raped. Which is horrifying. We aren't animals, just because our body gives consent doesn't mean our minds do.

 

Hmm if you are responding in relation to randsc post then this is true. But the whole debate started when someone said that guys can´t get raped by women (thinking that the only time a guy can get his dick hard is when he is aroused so therefor if he can get "raped" then his dick is hard, therefor he is enjoying it, and therefor it isn´t actually rape. A guy raping another guy... well, there only one of them needs an erection.

[randsc]

It simply isn't true that an erection is a certain sign of arousal, and therefore pleasure. Very few biological processes have a single purpose and no other. An erection is a common response to a fight or flight impulse. For that matter, and not to gross anyone out, female rape victims frequently produce significant lubrication. It's a defense mechanism. It doesn't mean they enjoyed themselves, or weren't raped.

 

In any case, I don't see Tylin's assault of Mat as involving physical coercion. She is, however, the only source of safety for him, his men, and the Wonder Twits he has promised to protect. Her good offices are critical to his survival. I doubt that any reader would defend Beslyn having his way with Elayne under the same circumstances, even if Jordan described her as "shattering."