Logain´s Pet

[Puny]

I dk if this question is simple....

 

In "The Extra bit" Ch 26, PoD Logain captures Toveine. He is so badass in these parts. <3

Anyway, Toveine is all freaked out that Logain is holding her with saidin and she is screaming and Logain begs her to calm down. She doesn´t and then he apologizes and kisses her. She gets warm and bubbly, starts vibrating and shatters. Voila. Logain has some uberCompulsion on her, and can make her do anything he wants.

 

How does this Compulsion really work,and why do they have to kiss them for it to work? I remember that Graendal said if you used too much Compulsion the person would be like a robot and that that wasn´t desireable. Is this the same as that or something else?

[Thor]

One of the Ashman explained it somewhere. It is a modified warder bond that the ashman intended for their wives.

[rcfleming4]

I think it's less like Compulsion and more like an unspoken (and forced) Oath. You Will Obey Me type of thing.

 

They can still think for themselves and such, but can't act on it. Similar to the Oath against speaking untruths.

[randsc]

I think the key is in understanding that the word "Shattered" is a euphamism.

[Puny]

I was thinking her free will shattered or something. I think it´s a euphanism too, but for what? Her free will or something else?

 

It does seem like a forced Oath but we have only seen Oath-type behaviour where there have been actual oathrods.

[Suttree]

I was thinking her free will shattered or something. I think it´s a euphanism too, but for what? Her free will or something else?

 

It does seem like a forced Oath but we have only seen Oath-type behaviour where there have been actual oathrods.

 

Lol you need to keep in mind the "shattering" is more of a side effect..than a cause for the bonding. Intense new physical connection between a man and woman...warm and bubbly...vibrating...shattering. Get it?

[Puny]

I was thinking her free will shattered or something. I think it´s a euphanism too, but for what? Her free will or something else?

 

It does seem like a forced Oath but we have only seen Oath-type behaviour where there have been actual oathrods.

 

Lol you need to keep in mind the "shattering" is more of a side effect..than a cause for the bonding. Intense new physical connection between a man and woman...warm and bubbly...vibrating...shattering. Get it?

 

Lol Suttree. Oki I´ve worked all day, did a work-out, it´s over 30 degrees Celsius here and I´m about to hit the bed soon. So let me see if I got the euphanism...

He kissed her, and she had an orgasm and tada... bonded? Lol?

[Suttree]

I was thinking her free will shattered or something. I think it´s a euphanism too, but for what? Her free will or something else?

 

It does seem like a forced Oath but we have only seen Oath-type behaviour where there have been actual oathrods.

 

Lol you need to keep in mind the "shattering" is more of a side effect..than a cause for the bonding. Intense new physical connection between a man and woman...warm and bubbly...vibrating...shattering. Get it?

 

Lol Suttree. Oki I´ve worked all day, did a work-out, it´s over 30 degrees Celsius here and I´m about to hit the bed soon. So let me see if I got the euphanism...

He kissed her, and she had an orgasm and tada... bonded? Lol?

 

Well yeah I'm sure there was some Saidin involved but that is basically it I think it is a tweak to the warder bond...

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

[Puny]

 

Well yeah I'm sure there was some Saidin involved but that is basically it I think it is a tweak to the warder bond...

 

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

Hmm so the extra bit is something special with the bonding or in it... Sigh I have to wait until I reread WH again. I have totally forgotten about this. Do you know what RJ meant?

[Suttree]

 

Well yeah I'm sure there was some Saidin involved but that is basically it I think it is a tweak to the warder bond...

 

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

Hmm so the extra bit is something special with the bonding or in it... Sigh I have to wait until I reread WH again. I have totally forgotten about this. Do you know what RJ meant?

 

Yeah IRC the extra bit is something special with how they do the bond. They were experimenting with diff things they could to do the bond and stumbled across the control part.

[Puny]

 

Well yeah I'm sure there was some Saidin involved but that is basically it I think it is a tweak to the warder bond...

 

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

Hmm so the extra bit is something special with the bonding or in it... Sigh I have to wait until I reread WH again. I have totally forgotten about this. Do you know what RJ meant?

 

Yeah IRC the extra bit is something special with how they do the bond. They were experimenting with diff things they could to do the bond and stumbled across the control part.

 

So they were fooling around with the bonding ...lol and then suddenly an Asha´man disovers his wife obeys his every whim and then they decided to tweak it abit, and voila. WonderObedience is born.

[jemron]

Maybe the kissing and/or "shattering orgasm" are necessary so that she "gives in" to the compulsion part of the bonding. It seems to me like rarely, if ever, do Aes Sedai use the bond to force Warders to their will, but that it has happened (usually with the Warder's consent if I'm not mistaken). Maybe gaining consent is necessary, but Logain sort of "forced her" into giving consent by blowing her mind :)

[Puny]

Maybe the kissing and/or "shattering orgasm" are necessary so that she "gives in" to the compulsion part of the bonding. It seems to me like rarely, if ever, do Aes Sedai use the bond to force Warders to their will, but that it has happened (usually with the Warder's consent if I'm not mistaken). Maybe gaining consent is necessary, but Logain sort of "forced her" into giving consent by blowing her mind :)

 

Oh me likes this explanation. Although it bugs me abit that Logain in that case forced her to give consent by giving her an orgasm. Then we are back to the woman is a vessel, bla bla to be filled, dominated and is opened the most when she is having an orgasm and the man is a ... I dk, spear that is dominating and thrusting. Hey it´s nothing wrong with a woman submitting to a wonderful Asha´man as Logain but still, that shouldn´t be the basic premise. It´s basically the same with saidin and saidar. Say Logain wanted to controll Taim like that. Would he need to give him an orgasm or is that sort of bond impossible cause both can´t give in?

 

I know this is purely speculation but if it would be that way it would... suck lol. Does it really need to be an orgasm? Maybe it can be any situaiton were a woman is open, say when she is bubbly taking a bath or drawing or w/e.

[randsc]

I'm just relieved that Suttee confirmed my reading of the passage in question, thus reassuring me that I am not a pervert who sees sex everywhere.

 

Or at least, that if I am such a pervert, I'm not alone.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

One of the Ashman explained it somewhere. It is a modified warder bond that the ashman intended for their wives.

 

Heh...maybe I'm weird but I wouldn't want to do this to my wife. Free will is much more appealing. I also think that it would change their personality. If I wanted an automaton then maybe I'd be into it, but I generally like my women to want me because of me, not because of something that I could do that they have no control over.

 

Not that I don't see potential uses for this weave (muahahahaha!), just not on the woman I am spending my life with.

[randsc]

The Asha'man weren't intending to "bond" their wives in that way. The weave was developed because Asha'man on missions far afield worried about their families, and wanted a way to know they were OK.

 

What they stumbled across was, essentially, a Warder bond.

[Puny]

Oki so they stumbled across the warder bond. Wifey happy, Asha´man happy. Then some wicked Asha´man experiments abit more and they discover some kinda bond that makes the person obey your every whim and Logain Bonds Toveine in that way.

 

Could they really order them to anything, and does Toveine only have to obey Logain. Say for example if Logain said; Slit your wrists. Would she have to do it? Or if he jokingly said: Slit your wrists. Would there be a difference for Toveine?

[jemron]

Remember, this is Robert Jordan we're talking about. His view of which gender is dominant is definitely not PC. I'm completely sure that RJ's attempts to show that Logain used "sex" or something akin to it as a way to control a woman was very much thought out by him and completely intentional.

 

One of the themes of WoT is that gender roles are often skewed and/or reversed from our current society.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if RJ was saying that, as Women can be thought to use their sexuality to "control" men in our world (not entirely true, but definitely something RJ would've believed) so men use their sexuality in WoT to manipulate and/or "force" women to their will.

 

It's really quite creepy. And, as an aside, even though Mat being sexually harassed by Queen Tylin was funny in a way, it was also very terrible. Imagine if the roles had been reversed and a man or King forced sex on a woman in the series... Oh wait, that did happen with Morgase and Rhavin. It was a lot creepier than when it happened to Mat.

[spoke]

It's really quite creepy. And, as an aside, even though Mat being sexually harassed by Queen Tylin was funny in a way, it was also very terrible. Imagine if the roles had been reversed and a man or King forced sex on a woman in the series... Oh wait, that did happen with Morgase and Rhavin. It was a lot creepier than when it happened to Mat.

 

But Mat being 'raped' by queen Tylin was what the Ta'veren needed. If she hadn't of done that, then he wouldn't have had the exchanges necessary with Tuon prior to kidnapping her, and then he wouldn't have married the Daughter of the Nine Moons. It was all very Ta'veren pulled.

[Puny]

The rape being necessary or not and leaving all that aside what bugs me with Mat is this. If it was rape... then Mat wouldn´t have liked it at all. Sure he jokes around that her hands are everywhere and such but seriously... I imagine Tylin being a little short thing, and Mat of average height. If he wanted couldn´t he just knocked her out or like slapped her and ran away? I know, now I´m assuming that all men are always stronger then women and can overpower him and I know that´s not true. You could also claim that Tylin used her power and authority over Mat to have sex with him, but we don´t get a PoV from Mat being sad, hurt or really torn up by what happened. He seems more flabber gasted that he is the one being chased, and not chasing himself.

 

So to compare that with Morgase were Rahvin had her under Compulsion is not the same at all imo.

[Puny]

I wouldn't be surprised if RJ was saying that, as Women can be thought to use their sexuality to "control" men in our world (not entirely true, but definitely something RJ would've believed) so men use their sexuality in WoT to manipulate and/or "force" women to their will.

 

I dk if Jordan thought that... and by sexuality you mean what? You mean a woman showing her cleavage or w/e to gain an advantage or a woman using sex. In my mind those two are different.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

The Asha'man weren't intending to "bond" their wives in that way. The weave was developed because Asha'man on missions far afield worried about their families, and wanted a way to know they were OK.

 

What they stumbled across was, essentially, a Warder bond.

 

I guess what they were intending and what manifested are 2 different things. As we have seen through various bonded characters, there is no hint of compulsion or loss of free will.

 

Toveine running through the streets till she stumbled, and following every command to the letter even if she wasn't consciously aware of it is in fact compulsion. Luckily it is the honorable Logain that she serves. This might be Mazrim Taim's version of the Warder bond.

 

As far as the Matt/Tylin interactions, I remember thinking the same thing when I read it...If the genders were reversed I wonder what the thinking would be. Personally, I loved the whole thing and regardless of Matt's whining he enjoyed himself I'm sure. I don't think their respective sizes matter since the lads from the Two Rivers are good men and would never hit a woman, even if she was Ogier sized.

[Durinax]

The rape being necessary or not and leaving all that aside what bugs me with Mat is this. If it was rape... then Mat wouldn´t have liked it at all. Sure he jokes around that her hands are everywhere and such but seriously... I imagine Tylin being a little short thing, and Mat of average height. If he wanted couldn´t he just knocked her out or like slapped her and ran away? I know, now I´m assuming that all men are always stronger then women and can overpower him and I know that´s not true. You could also claim that Tylin used her power and authority over Mat to have sex with him, but we don´t get a PoV from Mat being sad, hurt or really torn up by what happened. He seems more flabber gasted that he is the one being chased, and not chasing himself.

 

So to compare that with Morgase were Rahvin had her under Compulsion is not the same at all imo.

mat couldnt have done that due to tylin being a queen and him not having found the bowl yet.

 

in some cases people who have been captured and raped or other violent crimes come to 'love' their capture, kind of making it the best scenario type thing, I think that is what happened

[Puny]

The rape being necessary or not and leaving all that aside what bugs me with Mat is this. If it was rape... then Mat wouldn´t have liked it at all. Sure he jokes around that her hands are everywhere and such but seriously... I imagine Tylin being a little short thing, and Mat of average height. If he wanted couldn´t he just knocked her out or like slapped her and ran away? I know, now I´m assuming that all men are always stronger then women and can overpower him and I know that´s not true. You could also claim that Tylin used her power and authority over Mat to have sex with him, but we don´t get a PoV from Mat being sad, hurt or really torn up by what happened. He seems more flabber gasted that he is the one being chased, and not chasing himself.

 

So to compare that with Morgase were Rahvin had her under Compulsion is not the same at all imo.

mat couldnt have done that due to tylin being a queen and him not having found the bowl yet.

 

in some cases people who have been captured and raped or other violent crimes come to 'love' their capture, kind of making it the best scenario type thing, I think that is what happened

 

Was it really that bad? I mean, developing Stockholm Syndrome. I´ve just read those passages and he can walk almost everywhere he wants. Tylin shows up now and then so he remembers her and all the servants know. But he could leave- if it wasn´t ta´veren stuff I guess... When Tylin threathened him with the marriage knife he could have tried to do something. Frankly I don´t buy it... what I mean buy that is it doesn´t seem to make any sense if it was that bad. Even Morgase tried to fight Rahvin, even though her situation was more hopeless.

 

HeronMarked Soul: Is their upbringing about woman so ingrained in them that they would tolerate anything? That is foolish. I know Rand was that way but Mat struck me as more sensible. I mean if it was all bad, he was raped, and abused wouldn´t he knock her down or atleast try to do something, queen or no queen? Would he really defer to her? And if he did it because he had too, wouldn´t there be some post trauma?

 

Toveine obeying straight away seems like compulsion. Indeed she was lucky that honorable Logain caught her. It could have been much worse.

[birtikidis]

IDK many guys that would accuse a beautiful woman of raping them. In their own minds they would make themselves enjoy it. I know that's how I'd look at it. Doesn't mean it's something he wants.

I've always found it funny how matt reacts to the way Olver treats women, since it's just like the way he does, yet he thinks it's wrong... maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but he still thinks he's going about it all wrong.