Wise Ones at TG

[Arc]

Will the Wise Ones fight in TG?

 

- Malden: about 400 wise ones able to channel, only Shaido

- 12 clans (exempting the Jenn)

 

= about 4800 channelers(?), even if half of them is just as strong as Sorilea (which I doubt) there are still a good 2500 channeling woman... I might think that's more then there are AS and Damane combined at this side of the ocean.

 

On a side note: If Aiel were abandonning Ji'eh'Toh during their war with the Seanchan in Avi's vision, why didn't the Wise Ones participate? When more and more of them get collared as the war carries on, shouldn't they have come to some sort of understanding that it was needed to participate to survive? If centuries old values are chattering, why not the Wise Ones?

I know that even if they would go to battle, they lack the experience of the Damane, but since this takes place after the LB, they probably have a link with the AS, WT and AM, so their skills should have spanned a wider range of weaves by then, no? I any case, their initial supremacy in numbers should have helped to.

 

Regardless of this, since there has been no clear indication (I might of course be missing something) of the WO doing battle, I wondered if they will play a major role in the fighting in aMoL. Maybe they will participate when the red veiled things come into play?

 

BUT, some of the dreamwalkers did help in the fight against Mesaana and her gang. But it seemed like they only did it as to see if the shadowsouled were as strong as they in TAR. Came across as something to do with personal pride and all. Also they didn't really use the OP in that battle.

 

Also it's Aiel prophecy that they would fight in TG, but for some reason WO are exluded from this? We do not see them training the OP very often, certainly not battle weaves as they do not take part in clan conflicts etc.

But the whole point of going to the waste was training for the LB right? And for some reason channeling is left out of this? wise ones are mediators and advisors among the Aiel, which surely is important as well, but still it leaves me somewhat puzzled. Clarification anyone?

 

I know this isn't so much a structured topic intro, it's just some loose thoughts on the WO brought together. Still I hope the general Idea is somewhat clear.

 

thoughts?

[Mystica]

Hi Arc :)

 

First of all, not all Wise Ones can channel. The ability to channel is not a condition to becoming a Wise One and strenght in the One Power for those that can channel has no meaning whatsoever in their standing (as for instance in the White Towere were Aes Sedai who are weaker in the OP must defer to those that are stronger in the OP). While it may be that the ratio of channeling Aiel is slightly higher than in the wetlands (WO's do marry and have children, where AS don't, so the culling of the ability might be lower in the Aiel), the difference would still be minimal. Which means that in the Aiel too only 1% have the ability to learn to channel and even less are born with it. So for every WO that can channel there are perhaps 100 that can not.

 

Aviendha's vision of the future is one of many possibilities. It is not a certainty. For one thing, there is no mention at all about àny of the current characters. Not even Amys, Melanie or any of the other Wise Ones and none of the main characters still being around. This is really strange considering that the vision of Aviendha's children places the time at about 20 years after their birth, which would be aproximately 20 to 25 years after the LB. With women who can channel having very long lives (up to 600 years as we know from the Kin), it is really strange that not one of the current characters makes it pas the Last Battle. So this vision must be taken with the necessary sceptis. It feels to me as a 'worst case scenario' type future. A warning, more than a prediction.

 

The Aiel Prophecy says the Aiel will fight, but that is aimed at the entire Aiel nation. It doesn't mention that any particular Aiel will fight. The Wise Ones fight the Dark One in their own way. With counsel and guidance and aid, while the warriors take care of the actual fighting itself. Much like the blacksmiths participate and contribute to the fighting by creating the weapons with which the warriors fight. Whether the Wise Ones will participate in the Last Battle by actually using the One Power or not, remains to be seen. They might, considering the gravity of the event. The Last Battle being the Last Battle, it is very likely that it could be deemed as a completely unique and necessary exception to the rule. So they may, but that will exclude all Wise Ones that can not channel. So even if they join in, that will only be a minority of Wise Ones doing so, and not nearly the numbers you mentioned.

 

 

Concerning the Seanchan, I believe Rand will pull a Ta'veren tug on them. This time in the positive way, the same as he has been doing in the last book. I don't think the situation will arrise where the Wise Ones will feel a need to fight personally agains the Seanchan, though they undoubtedly will be utterly outraged at the idea of them collaring Wise Ones. Aviendha may, however, warn them against rash action, considering her vision of a possible future. Which may lead to them being more amendable to let Rand deal with it. The Aiel are no strangers to sacrifice and it may very well be that the Wise Ones will consider this one of those sacrifices that must be made to save what they can of the Aiel in the long run. It's really a situation that can go in many direction still, with the Seanchan, I think.

[MasterAblar]

Hi Arc :)

 

First of all, not all Wise Ones can channel. The ability to channel is not a condition to becoming a Wise One and strenght in the One Power for those that can channel has no meaning whatsoever in their standing (as for instance in the White Towere were Aes Sedai who are weaker in the OP must defer to those that are stronger in the OP). While it may be that the ratio of channeling Aiel is slightly higher than in the wetlands (WO's do marry and have children, where AS don't, so the culling of the ability might be lower in the Aiel), the difference would still be minimal. Which means that in the Aiel too only 1% have the ability to learn to channel and even less are born with it. So for every WO that can channel there are perhaps 100 that can not.

 

Aviendha's vision of the future is one of many possibilities. It is not a certainty. For one thing, there is no mention at all about àny of the current characters. Not even Amys, Melanie or any of the other Wise Ones and none of the main characters still being around. This is really strange considering that the vision of Aviendha's children places the time at about 20 years after their birth, which would be aproximately 20 to 25 years after the LB. With women who can channel having very long lives (up to 600 years as we know from the Kin), it is really strange that not one of the current characters makes it pas the Last Battle. So this vision must be taken with the necessary sceptis. It feels to me as a 'worst case scenario' type future. A warning, more than a prediction.

 

The Aiel Prophecy says the Aiel will fight, but that is aimed at the entire Aiel nation. It doesn't mention that any particular Aiel will fight. The Wise Ones fight the Dark One in their own way. With counsel and guidance and aid, while the warriors take care of the actual fighting itself. Much like the blacksmiths participate and contribute to the fighting by creating the weapons with which the warriors fight. Whether the Wise Ones will participate in the Last Battle by actually using the One Power or not, remains to be seen. They might, considering the gravity of the event. The Last Battle being the Last Battle, it is very likely that it could be deemed as a completely unique and necessary exception to the rule. So they may, but that will exclude all Wise Ones that can not channel. So even if they join in, that will only be a minority of Wise Ones doing so, and not nearly the numbers you mentioned.

 

 

Concerning the Seanchan, I believe Rand will pull a Ta'veren tug on them. This time in the positive way, the same as he has been doing in the last book. I don't think the situation will arrise where the Wise Ones will feel a need to fight personally agains the Seanchan, though they undoubtedly will be utterly outraged at the idea of them collaring Wise Ones. Aviendha may, however, warn them against rash action, considering her vision of a possible future. Which may lead to them being more amendable to let Rand deal with it. The Aiel are no strangers to sacrifice and it may very well be that the Wise Ones will consider this one of those sacrifices that must be made to save what they can of the Aiel in the long run. It's really a situation that can go in many direction still, with the Seanchan, I think.

 

I believe all female channelers become Wise Ones among the aiel whereas obviously not all women become Wise Ones. Therefore the proportions are going to be very different.

 

Out of 1000 women, 10 would be able to channel and are therefore WO. If say 40 other women out of the 1000 become WO, that means 1 out of 5 WO are channelers. Even with those proportions 2000 Wise Ones among the Shaido strikes me as a lot. However it's already much more believable then if 1 out of 100 Wise Ones can channel since that would come out to 40000 Wise Ones among the Shaido which seems rather a lot.

 

Also I'd point out that we don't know if all the clans have the same size. It may be the Shaido were an exceptionally large clan.

[OptimusPrime]

I always imagined the Shaido to be the biggest clan myself, have done since Fires of Heaven and the aftermath, although that isnt based on any stat mentioned in the books.

 

As for the Wise Ones and the Last Battle, who says they have to channel? It seems likely to me that Perrin might well have to fight in T'A'R at some point, possibly something like Rand died, waits in T'A'R, and Perrin leads the dead wolves to save Rand from the Shadows attempts to secure/destroy his soul. Naturally it seems like the Shadow are going to have peope sent to T'A'R for the very purpose of getting dead Rand, from that thought it seems pretty silly to send non-channelers because what are they guna do exactly? Stab dead Rand with a physical weapon? Nah, if that scenario takes place then the Shadow will send channelers. And the second the Wise Ones hear of it (and they WILL hear of it, indirectly from Mat or Perrin, if not from one of the Dreamers or Dreamwalkers) they would get to T'A'R like something that gets to T'A'R really quick, find Rand through need, and thwart any pesky weaves directed at dead Rand and his squadron of rescuers, thus levelling the ground for Perrin and his wolves.

[Lisa Campbell]

We've already seen that WO's will use OP against shadowspawn in Jangai Pass and at Cold Rocks Hold before Rand goes to Rhuidean. Also the WO's with Perrin fight against the Shaido to help free Faile. So I guess that it comes down to their personal choice.

 

And for those quibbling about numbers, when Perrin is scoping Malden, Edarra? says that she thinks that every Shaido WO who can channel is there, about 400 or so.

 

As for skills, WO's share some the same as AS's, some they do better such as throwing fireballs faster and without gestures, some the AS's don't know, and they don't seem to be limited by the 'learn it one way and you're stuck with it rule' like AS. Just because WO'sdon't partake in battle as tradition, doesn't mean they don't learn as much as they can. After all we've seen AM learn battle strategies by completing practical tasks like digging ditches, building walls, blowing up rocks etc..

[David Selig]

On a side note: If Aiel were abandonning Ji'eh'Toh during their war with the Seanchan in Avi's vision, why didn't the Wise Ones participate? When more and more of them get collared as the war carries on, shouldn't they have come to some sort of understanding that it was needed to participate to survive? If centuries old values are chattering, why not the Wise Ones?

The Wise Ones participated in the battles against the Seanchan - "Seanchan channelers were brutal in their effectiveness. Though the Wise Ones and Dragon Blooded used the One Power in battle, it was not enough. Those cursed a’dam! Each channeler the Aiel lost to capture was eventually turned against them.". They probably did from the start - otherwise I don't see how the Aiel would've been able to keep the war pretty even in the first 40 years against the damane without channelling support.

 

The Shaido were probably the biggest clan - Couladin had the same number of fighters at his disposal as four other clans combined (the ones who joined Rand after the battle) before the battle with Rand's forces in Cairhien. Of course, their numbers included many Aiel who joined them from other clans after Rand's revelations, but still they were mostly Shaido IIRC from Faile's captivity storyline - the Meradin were a minority in the camp.

 

Anyway, I am pretty sure the WOs will take part in the Last Battle directly. It would be incredibly irresponsible not to help their fellow Aiel in fighting the forces of ultimate evil, and they already broke the tradition of non-participation at Dumai's Wells. Hopefully Rand's stupid obsession with not hurting or risking women is over now and he can deploy them effectively.

[Red Hand Man]

Just a side thought, has anyone speculated on what would happen to the Ta'veren technovision connection if one of the three were to die?

[herid]

I always imagined the Shaido to be the biggest clan myself, have done since Fires of Heaven and the aftermath, although that isnt based on any stat mentioned in the books.

 

 

yep, I think so too and it seems to be confirmed in FoH. Mat thinks this when looking at the maps

 

 

With the toe of his boot he shifted a few pebbles on the map of the city so he could read what was written on the parchments. In spite of himself, he winced. If the Aiel scouts could count, Couladin had nearly one hundred and sixty thousand spears—Shaido and those who had supposedly gone to join their societies among the Shaido. A hard nut to crack, and prickly. This side of the Spine of the World had not seen an army like that since Artur Hawkwing’s time.

 

The second map showed the other clans that had crossed the Dragonwall. All had now, in one force or another, strung out according to when they had left the Jangai and spread apart, but too close to here for comfort. The Shiande, the Codarra, the Daryne, and the Miagoma. Between them, they apparently had at least as many spears as Couladin; they had not left many behind, if that was true. The seven clans with Rand almost doubled that, easily enough to face Couladin or the four clans. Either or. Not both, not at once. But both at once might be what Rand had to fight.

-FoH, Ch 42

 

 

So the Shaido have about the same number of people as the 4 other clans not with Rand Shiande, the Codarra, the Daryne, and the Miagoma. and 7 clans with Rand have only about twice as many people as the Shaido. Even counting the influx of brotherless from other clans, the Shaido seem too numerous compared to the rest.

 

 

 

We've already seen that WO's will use OP against shadowspawn in Jangai Pass and at Cold Rocks Hold before Rand goes to Rhuidean. Also the WO's with Perrin fight against the Shaido to help free Faile.

+1. The WOs with Perrin fight the Shaido. All of them fight shadowspawn. And they have no qualms at all about fighting Black Ajah in the battle in TAR in ToM. They'll fight in the LB.

 

And for those quibbling about numbers, when Perrin is scoping Malden, Edarra? says that she thinks that every Shaido WO who can channel is there, about 400 or so.

 

Since the Shaido seems to be the biggest clan, the total numbers of WOs channelers are hard to pin down but for sure there are at least 1000 of them and likely a lot more. Egwene gives a low ball count once

I think there are more Wise Ones who can channel than there are Aes Sedai

-LoC, Ch 37

[spoke]

Just because the shaido were huge in FOH, it does not mean they were the biggest clan. Many who could not accept Rand as the Caracarn went to join the Shaido. The brother-less really bolstered their numbers considerably. So them having 400 or so wise ones is probably pretty indicative of what the other clans have as well.

[Manscher]

If I'm not mistaken, the Shaido also moved the entire clan into the wetlands, whereas the other clans only moved a part of their army.

[herid]

Just because the shaido were huge in FOH, it does not mean they were the biggest clan. Many who could not accept Rand as the Caracarn went to join the Shaido. The brother-less really bolstered their numbers considerably. So them having 400 or so wise ones is probably pretty indicative of what the other clans have as well.

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, the Shaido also moved the entire clan into the wetlands, whereas the other clans only moved a part of their army.

the quote I gave above indicates that the clans with Rand in FoH took almost all their warriors with them. Also, when the numbers are compared only the spears are counted so the fact that the entire Shaido clan went is irrelevant.

 

The second map showed the other clans that had crossed the Dragonwall. All had now, in one force or another, strung out according to when they had left the Jangai and spread apart, but too close to here for comfort. The Shiande, the Codarra, the Daryne, and the Miagoma. Between them, they apparently had at least as many spears as Couladin; they had not left many behind, if that was true. The seven clans with Rand almost doubled that, easily enough to face Couladin or the four clans. Either or. Not both, not at once. But both at once might be what Rand had to fight.

-FoH, Ch 42

 

as for the brotherless and those simply abandoning their spears, that's only a small percentage of the Aiel. It's never described as a mass exodus. The Wise ones refer to them as a soft outer bark once. There are 11 clans besides the Shaido. if they were of about equal size and if, say, even 10% of the people from the other clans joined the Shaido there would be a huge number of them, easily as many as all Shaido together. Nothing even close to that is ever mentioned when the brotherless in Malden are described. that means that the percentages involved are really very small and would not change the military balance during the battle for Cairhien in any significant way. Also, none of the Wise Ones are ever mentioned as having defected so the ones in Malden that can channel were all true Shaido. If the clans are of the same size then there are some 4000+ Wise ones channelers in the clans with Rand. Nothing resembling those numbers is ever mentioned either.