The Circularity of Time.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As has been pointed out in many places, Time in Randland is circular and pretty well fixed circular at that. There is room for slight variation in the exact series of events that takes place throughout the Ages of the Wheel, but overall, all of Life and Time is preordained to come to the same series of points. Over and over again.

 

Given that this series is a saga about the struggle centering on one of those node points, was this a useful paradigm for the author to adopt? Doesn't it rob the whole series of any ultimate suspense?

 

Sure, we get the minor suspenseful moments - will Nynaeve ever break her block? - will Perrin ever find Faile again? etc., but the big climax that the series is supposed to be building to is already predetermined - isn't it? Hasn't The Wheel passed this way many times before? Since the world is still there, and the characters are there, and The Wheel is still turning, everything always ultimately keeps those things happening.

 

So, where's the cookie for the reader?

[SinisterDeath]

Ages can last any length of time the wheel feels. And the 3rd age now, and the last 3rd age, and the 3rd age that will come again are completely different.

 

The wheel is like a giant well, wheel that spins threads.

Each person has its own thread.

Each Age has its own pattern so to speak.

1 full revolution escentially create a canvas.

That canvas would be all the events from age 1 to age 7, combined together into one large picture of events that shows the grand scheme of things.

So the next 1st age, will not be exactly like the last. And I don't mean just peoples names. Even events won't be the same. The over all goal of each would be somewhat similar.. possibly, but its hard to say. We won't know for certain until the series ends. For all we know the Do suceeds.

[Gentled Ben]

For all we know the Do suceeds.

Right, and there we have the only "real" suspense, as far as what Bob was talking about goes, and we don't really even have that, because RJ has said that this story is both in our future and in our past, so if the DO does win, it won't be in this turining of the wheel. So yeah, I suppose you're right, but it's still a good story, Bob. :roll:

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, given that logic, where is there ever a cookie for the reader? The good guys pretty much always win in fictional stories. The fact that I know the good guys are going to win hasnt stopped me from enjoying it.

 

Theoretically, the Dark One is capable of breaking the Wheel if he gets free, so if the Light loses Tarmon Gai'don on this cycle, the cycles end. That is the "suspense" backdrop. But you're right. We know that won't happen. But Eddings readers knew Garion would beat Torak. Star Wars devotees knew that Luke would blow up the Death Star. Tolkien's readers knew Sauron wasn't going to get his ring back. I'm sure you see the pattern (or should I say, Pattern? :lol: ).

 

At any rate, in fiction, you always know basically what is going to happen. Good wins, after a difficult trip (just how difficult depends on the author, as Ned and Robb Stark found out). But none of it is really suspenseful in the sense of "will evil actually prevail"? Of course not. It's a story.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In every other form of fiction that I've ever read, there is at least the possibility for evil to succeed. Sometimes, evil could even be said to triumph. Holmes, for instance, never did get Moriarty.

 

Here, that isn't the case. Time is fixed circular. Whatever else may happen during the Seven Ages of The Wheel, two things are certain and forever fixed.

 

The Bore will be opened. Subsequently, Tarmon Gaidon will be fought.

 

The author's insistence on the fixed circularity of Time means that their isn't even a pretense that evil stands a chance. That just leaves us with an eleven book long catalog of dress, mores and mannerisms.

[Guest Majsju]

If the bad guys wins, the Wheel is broken, end of circular time, hello linear time.

 

Just as much possibility for the baddies to win as in other fantasy. Slightly greater, as RJ tends to be a tad more realistic than most other fantasy authors.

[SinisterDeath]

I think the 'realistic' ending would be something similar to the Vietnam war.. well, not exactly the same. But the good guys win, with horrifying number of casualties.

[Leopoled Boothe]

My understanding of the Wheel and the Pattern is that while each age is directed toward a particular goal that every little detail is not presicely preordained. So time is preordained but only in a broad sences. People do have freewill and random events do occur withing the pattern, but by and large these random events and people's everday choices do not affect the overall flow of time toward these "nodes" as you call them. From time to time, however, a person will exersize his freewill to the extent that his actions begin to work agaist the weaving of the pattern. At such times the wheel spins out one or more ta'veren (sp) in order to set things right again. However, the real suspence comes from a threat that exists outside the pattern, namely the Dark One. Through ta'varen the wheel has a self correcting mechanism for any evil that crops up within the pattern, however, because the DO is alien to the pattern it is much more difficult correct for any damage that he causes to the pattern. Another way of putting is to say that ta'varen are designed to take care of internal problems within the pattern, and while ta'varen are the only defence the Wheel has against external problems such as the DO, they are not specifically designed to take care of external problems. This is why the DO poses such a real threat to the pattern, and is why every time the DO shows up the wheel spins out one or more particularly powerfull ta'varen ie LTT or Rand, Mat and Perrin.

 

Moreover, I have always assumed that certain events are unique to this particular turning of the Wheel, namely the Bore. The DO exists outside the pattern and therefore his actions cannot be preordained by the Wheel. Therefore, because the Bore came about due to the actions of the DO we must assume that the Bore is not an event preordained by the Wheel and therefore does not occur in every turning.

 

Ok, I hope all of this made sense. The overall point is that events within the pattern are preordained but, because the DO is outside the pattern he can cause unforseen changes to the pattern that can drasticlly change the pattern or unravel it all together.

[edman]

If the bad guys wins, the Wheel is broken, end of circular time, hello linear time.

 

This is my crazy theory on what Rand is actually going to do to defeat the DO. If Rand breaks the Wheel then there will be no more battles for the Dragon and the DO in the future. Sounds shoddy but isn't everyone allowed to have at least one crazy theory if they read WoT?

[Luckers]

There are certain things that circular time lends itself too... the idea of the heroes, of rebirth, of the Dragon Reborn. RJ's choice goes a long way to seeting up an ideological, conceptual and physical world of the series.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Leopold's idea is a new one. I kinda like it.

 

Something obviously happens to end the AoL and cause the transition to the 3rd Age. We've all been assuming that thing is always the drilling of the Bore and the War of Power, but nothing says it has to be that.

 

One of the things that has always seemed nonsensical to me was the idea that every turning of The Wheel incorporated a Tarmon Gaidon. TG, to me, has always been semantically equivalent to Ragnarok or Armageddon. A one time event. Not, Big Black Baddie Beatdown LXVII.

 

Think I'll climb aboard this little train, since it's the only theory I've seen that provides a way off the treadmill.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Funny ... none of the people in that world agree with you.

[Luckers]

Moreover, since Armageddon and Ragnerok aint happened yet, id guess that like that, the concept of the Last Battle is just another human construct. Theres even a name for it. Eschatologicallism.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In case you haven't been paying attention, Tarmon Gaidon hasn't ever happened yet either. So far as we know, Time in the real-world sense is linear, not circular.

 

So, what relevance does a lack of Ragnarok or Armageddon have?

[Limedust]

I tend to think that the Wheel of time is coming to the end of its revolutions. I don't know that The Dragon ever really faced the Dark One in the Age of Legends as the prophesies say that Rand will. From what I remember, some intelligence was gleaned that led Lews Therin to believe that all the Forsaken were at Shaol Ghul; he took his Hundred Companions and struck, a raid as Mat might call it, with the intention of sealing the bore and locking the Forsaken away from the world. I don't think he ever intended to face the Dark One. Now, Rand has been aiming at Tarmon gaidon from the beginning; he knows that he will face the Dark One and that resealing the bore will be insufficient. He intends to kill Dark One.

 

Furthermore, it is clear that time itself is in fluctuation--repeated references are made to old things returning, reality warping, and dead rising from their graves. One might intuit that the Dark One is touching the earth to a greater degree than before, but it seems to me as if the cumulative effects of constant tampering with reality, via Tel Aran Rhiod, Balefire, portals, portal stones, and the introduction of potential time-space paradoxes through traveling and gateways have disrupted the fabric of time-space itself.

 

Oh, and there are some apocryphal references to the irreality of Randland in the first place. The Aiel consider life a dream from which everyone must awake--metaphorically this is apt, but I think there might be something more to it--and the disappearance of the (I can't remember right now, but the entire nation that committed suicide in KOD) becasue "the time of illusion was at an end", coupled with the ability of the Ogier to migrate via their book seems to indicate a sort of temporary world. I think that when you combine these facts with prophecy and what we know from Ishamael's rantings (he suggests this could be the last time this ever happens) a compelling case can be made for the discontinuation of the wheel and the introduction of linear time.

[Guest Majsju]

LTT went to SG with the intention of sealing the DO up, it was a pure coincidence that 13 of the forsaken happened to be there.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good Lord. Now I'm going to have to agree with Maj a second time... and inside a week, no less.

 

How depressing. :cry:

[SinisterDeath]

What was sugjested about the Ogier is that escentially, they come from a 'portal world'..

The portal world idea its self is along the lines of parrallel worlds..

And with that, the idea is that Randland is the 'main' timeline. And the portal worlds, or parrallel worlds, are the offshoots, Where one tiny variable creates an entirely different universe/parrallel world.

 

Combine that with what Verin said, that if the DO wins in one world, he wins in them all..

The thing about that is...

If that were true, in that one portal world, The trollocs destroyed everything.. which, should have allowed the DO plenty of time to free himself... Which he didn't.

To me, this says, that the DO is stuck within the randlander's time line/universe, while being outside it. He is imprissoned within, and outside of that universe.

And the more the DO is freed from his prison, the more he is able to affect the other worlds to. But his primary goal is to free himself from the maintimeline world...

 

The ogiers Attempts at fleeing is pretty much pointless. If they leave, and rand Loses TG, then well the ogier lose to.

And theres also the part that if they leave, they might die from that sickness involving steddings..

[Luckers]

In case you haven't been paying attention' date=' Tarmon Gaidon hasn't ever happened yet either. So far as we know, Time in the real-world sense is linear, not circular.

 

So, what relevance does a lack of Ragnarok or Armageddon have?[/quote']

 

It is significant in the fact that there has never, in our world, been such an ending. Things go on, and NOTHING ever wraps up in a nice little bubble. Yet human beings insist in prophesising an end, a finality. We like closure. Eschatology is what its called...

 

And like that, the idea of the Last Battle is simply... drama. It will not be the final battle against the Shadow unless the Dark One wins.

 

It may be the final battle, something may happen that will allow Rand to kill the dark one or some other extravagence... all im saying is that the people who named this upcoming battle the LAST battle have no way of knowing that... its just hopeful conjecture on their part.

 

Also, i do not believe that the Ogier come from a portal world. Loial obviously knows quite a lot of the Book of Translations, and in no way identifies it with the portal stone worlds. My guess is that they either come from another solar system, or they come from a perpindicular world, like the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn.

[SinisterDeath]

I think the Ogier world is from a 'portal world' that isn't a portal world.

Quite simply the way I see 'portal' worlds is that Say, Rands timeline Created a Gigantic Stone to teleport to one parrallel world.

In an alternate timeline, where say one minor event changed the course of history, Everything in that world, changed accrodingly. But they built there own portal stone.. ect ect ect. Now you have houndreds of different portal worlds that either, were connected by pure coincidence, or via a type of gate way or scientific travelling.. *like stargate*...

 

The Ogier world however, vered off the path Much Much Much earlier then the other worlds.. Say, the portal worlds we know, strayed off the main timeline say 50,000 years ago. The ogier one, probably strayed off 60 billion years ago.

 

And since each parrallel world veers off in its own dirrection, Time, and otehr things probably change to.

Like, watch stargate, sliders, startrek, and read a few chapters in quantom mechanics and this'll make at least some kind of rhudmentary sense!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

My point was that the strongest parallels to our mythology that Jordan draws upon come from the apocalyptic religions. With Tarmon Gaidon as a central theme of Randland, whatever homage the characters and the story may owe to Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, etc. are secondary. This is an apocalypic culture, with a very real apocalypse.

 

If not, if Jordan really means that this is all just one more dustup in an endless series of such dustups, I'm gonna feel really ripped-off. Just one more skirmish in the endless battle between good and evil was not what I signed on for.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If not, if Jordan really means that this is all just one more dustup in an endless series of such dustups, I'm gonna feel really ripped-off.

 

Prepare to feel ripped-off.

[Luckers]

And my point was the majority of those faiths ARE militinarian and have their own versions of eschatological texts. Its a natural function of humsn nature, and the fact that the humans in the book has chosen to name this battle the Last Battle is an aspect of that, and is no way indicative of any causal relationship.

 

So, in Robert's words, prepare to be disapointed, because that is more likely then the alternative.

[Guest Majsju]

And it's kinda natural this is referred to as the Last Battle. If this sealing is the one that is so successful that the DO is completely forgotten when the AOL comes again, it is the Last Battle from a human perspective. The DO will be completely gone for 5 Ages, so forgotten that not even the myth exist when the AOL comes again.

[KaptainKaos]

If not, if Jordan really means that this is all just one more dustup in an endless series of such dustups, I'm gonna feel really ripped-off. Just one more skirmish in the endless battle between good and evil was not what I signed on for.

 

Seriously why are you even reading or talking about this series if there are so many inconsistencies, poor plotlines, and misguided themes? All I ever see in your posts is an obvious message you broadcast that these books don't meet your supreme level of understanding and logic. You didn't 'sign on' for anything, reading ten thousand pages or so of a book series isn't any great undertaking. If all that you are going to say is the books don't meet your standards unless this or that doesn't turn out the way you want than why are you even bothering to read or discuss just write your own ending and consider it the true ending.