Wtf egwene?

[tipwong]

I was always under the impression that Tamra never really sent Siuan and Moiraine out to hunt Rand down, but rather that they both just assumed it was their duty to find him, since they heard the foretelling.

 

But no, I do not consider the action of 2(3) sisters to be an act of The White Tower, when most of the Tower would still them on the spot for what they where doing, and that fear of being discovered and stilled really has nothing to do with the Black Ajah, but rather the general mentality of The White Tower. Just as you can not excuse Elaida and the other sitters actions on the Black Ajah alone, yes they helped and send the snowball rolling, but it was still the majority of the sitters who voted for Elaida. Allowing her to Still Siuan and Leana, and kill Siuans Warder, before ever questioning their motives, proving just exactly how flawed and wrong The Tower and the Aes Sedai in general is.

 

Was referring NS Tamra specifically moved Siuan and Moraine to were they would see all the reports coming in and yes with the groups of hunters being killed that was the og reason for the search going underground. Have you read NS? That explains why they keep it a secret.

 

They would not have been stilled under regular circumstances. Don't forget that the BA were playing there little game controlling the sitters and it was only Elaida's sneaky politics with the help of the BA that made it happen at all. If the Amrylin is the one ordering something be done you better believe all the resources of the tower are on the problem, even if the Tower doesn't realize that is what they are working on.

 

That is just finding the DR though. Take it back a bit farther, w/o the WT's influence(Gitara convincing the Daughter-Heir of Andor to become a maiden) the DR would never have even been born. You cant just cherry pick away things the better AS have done while in the same breath say Elaida is representative of the whole WT.

In NS, the WT want Moraine to become the Queen of Cairhien. She run away and want to find Dragon Reborn with her friend Siuan helping her. WT at the time never want her and Siuan to help beyond doing the clerk work as other Accepted do. They try to listen in order to find out who are the "searchers" for the Dragon Reborn.

[WMBunt]

Because everybody knows that The Black Tower and the Asha'man are Rands personal army, they even recruit people asking if they want to fight for the lord Dragon.

 

Not to pick nits, but isn't the Black Tower more of Taim/Demandred/Moridin's personal army? Seems like the Ashaman are going to pose a pretty big problem for Rand in the final book.

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

[MasterAblar]

Because everybody knows that The Black Tower and the Asha'man are Rands personal army, they even recruit people asking if they want to fight for the lord Dragon.

 

Not to pick nits, but isn't the Black Tower more of Taim/Demandred/Moridin's personal army? Seems like the Ashaman are going to pose a pretty big problem for Rand in the final book.

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

 

Androl and those that he knows are loyal to Rand at the BT are outnumbered by the the darkfriend ashaman, however there's also a neutral faction. There could very well be 20-25% of darkfriends among the ashamann, 5-10% of ashaman who are without a doubt loyal to Rand and the rest neutral. Androl is still outnumbered in this situation. So his sense of panic is perfectly understandable.

 

Also the total number of male channelers in the BT is equal to less than half the total amount of ashaman. Logain says it straight out in KoD. And those are clearly under Rand's orders.

[WMBunt]

Because everybody knows that The Black Tower and the Asha'man are Rands personal army, they even recruit people asking if they want to fight for the lord Dragon.

 

Not to pick nits, but isn't the Black Tower more of Taim/Demandred/Moridin's personal army? Seems like the Ashaman are going to pose a pretty big problem for Rand in the final book.

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

 

Androl and those that he knows are loyal to Rand at the BT are outnumbered by the the darkfriend ashaman, however there's also a neutral faction. There could very well be 20-25% of darkfriends among the ashamann, 5-10% of ashaman who are without a doubt loyal to Rand and the rest neutral. Androl is still outnumbered in this situation. So his sense of panic is perfectly understandable.

 

Also the total number of male channelers in the BT is equal to less than half the total amount of ashaman. Logain says it straight out in KoD. And those are clearly under Rand's orders.

 

Again with the fictitious numbers. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this statement that X amount of people is fact and the absolute case is not true. It's supporting an argument with false statements rather than analyzing the information we have at hand that can be confirmed. The rest is supposition that can fluctuate based on how the person making the case wants it to fall. Has BS come out and said 20 percent of the BT is darkfriend and 5 percent is loyal to the Dragon with 75 percent not picking a side? The only evidence we have to rely on is anecdotal and remains that the PoV we've been given is that the size of the force in the BT that Rand can certainly count on is small.

 

We have no accurate count. We have no idea what the numbers are, in truth. What we've been given is a point of view that provides us with real fear and a sense that because of overwhelming odds, the BT will be lost to the Dragon and those inside loyal to him will be "dealt with" by those loyal to Taim. Their first instinct isn't to assert authority for the Dragon, it's not to rely on the support of those who are loyal to the Dragon to deal with the threat. It's not even to try to recruit any neutral party to their side. It's to run and run fast.

 

Regardless of who remains outside of the BT and what their numbers are, by the same logic used in the argument that the WT will be diminshed and lose power and standing in the eyes of the public...the actions of those still in the BT proper will undercut whatever standing Rand and those loyal to him have gained if they aren't dealt with. Any significant force of male channelers at this point in the world could be logically concluded will reinforce any belief among the populace as a whole that male channelers can not be trusted and should be handled. It could also be logically argued that Taim's actions (and those of his loyalists) will then bolster the power of the WT and actually restore it to a greater level of power because they are the only force who has proven to be able to deal with the "threat" of male channelers.

 

Ergo, it would be quite correct to say that the BT will logically prove to be a pretty big problem for Rand. Whether Rand or Logain is the one to deal with the threat remains to be seen.

 

I guess this means I would be White Ajah?

[Kahsm]

Because everybody knows that The Black Tower and the Asha'man are Rands personal army, they even recruit people asking if they want to fight for the lord Dragon.

 

Not to pick nits, but isn't the Black Tower more of Taim/Demandred/Moridin's personal army? Seems like the Ashaman are going to pose a pretty big problem for Rand in the final book.

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

 

I agree we don't get much sense for numbers at all. I'm not sure Taim's force is larger than the all the rest currently at the BT, but they're certainly the largest cohesive group. If there are more non-Taim Asha'man at the BT, then they're likely fractured into small groups of "friends" like we see in the ToM PoV -- just a handful per group who confide in each other. And that won't make a very cohesive resistance against what seems to be very compelled (possibly in all meanings of the word) supporters of Taim.

[MasterAblar]

Because everybody knows that The Black Tower and the Asha'man are Rands personal army, they even recruit people asking if they want to fight for the lord Dragon.

 

Not to pick nits, but isn't the Black Tower more of Taim/Demandred/Moridin's personal army? Seems like the Ashaman are going to pose a pretty big problem for Rand in the final book.

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

 

Androl and those that he knows are loyal to Rand at the BT are outnumbered by the the darkfriend ashaman, however there's also a neutral faction. There could very well be 20-25% of darkfriends among the ashamann, 5-10% of ashaman who are without a doubt loyal to Rand and the rest neutral. Androl is still outnumbered in this situation. So his sense of panic is perfectly understandable.

 

Also the total number of male channelers in the BT is equal to less than half the total amount of ashaman. Logain says it straight out in KoD. And those are clearly under Rand's orders.

 

Again with the fictitious numbers. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this statement that X amount of people is fact and the absolute case is not true. It's supporting an argument with false statements rather than analyzing the information we have at hand that can be confirmed. The rest is supposition that can fluctuate based on how the person making the case wants it to fall. Has BS come out and said 20 percent of the BT is darkfriend and 5 percent is loyal to the Dragon with 75 percent not picking a side? The only evidence we have to rely on is anecdotal and remains that the PoV we've been given is that the size of the force in the BT that Rand can certainly count on is small.

 

We have no accurate count. We have no idea what the numbers are, in truth. What we've been given is a point of view that provides us with real fear and a sense that because of overwhelming odds, the BT will be lost to the Dragon and those inside loyal to him will be "dealt with" by those loyal to Taim. Their first instinct isn't to assert authority for the Dragon, it's not to rely on the support of those who are loyal to the Dragon to deal with the threat. It's not even to try to recruit any neutral party to their side. It's to run and run fast.

 

Regardless of who remains outside of the BT and what their numbers are, by the same logic used in the argument that the WT will be diminshed and lose power and standing in the eyes of the public...the actions of those still in the BT proper will undercut whatever standing Rand and those loyal to him have gained if they aren't dealt with. Any significant force of male channelers at this point in the world could be logically concluded will reinforce any belief among the populace as a whole that male channelers can not be trusted and should be handled. It could also be logically argued that Taim's actions (and those of his loyalists) will then bolster the power of the WT and actually restore it to a greater level of power because they are the only force who has proven to be able to deal with the "threat" of male channelers.

 

Ergo, it would be quite correct to say that the BT will logically prove to be a pretty big problem for Rand. Whether Rand or Logain is the one to deal with the threat remains to be seen.

 

I guess this means I would be White Ajah?

 

First of all, I never said the numbers I gave were fact, I clearly said "could".

 

Secondly, I do expect the BT to be a problem for Rand, afterall even 25% of all the ashaman being darkfriends is a big problem. And that even with Rand being able to rely on all the ashaman out of the BT, who do make up at least half the total ashaman. And that number is a fact.

 

Obviously Androl wouldn't be worried unless his situation is bad. He probably doesn't have a much better idea than we do about the number of darkfriends. For all he knows every last one, except for the few he knows he can count on, could be darkfriends. That's already a cause for fear and it doesn't have to be true. No, we are not given any clear numbers, I just tend to think that the proportion of darkfriends in the BT will more or less be equal to that in the WT.

 

As for losing standing, well yes, but then again the general opinion on the the BT already isn't exactly great. The WT really has way more to lose from the revelation of darkfriends being among them.

I don't know if the revelation would bolster the WT's power, afterall it wouldn't make their failings go away, but it would certainly reinforce the belief that the WT has that men and certainly men who can channel are not to be trusted. Which is sort of why I think that any fighting among ashaman will be nearly exclusivly among ashaman. In other words no official aid from the WT.

[WMBunt]

Because everybody knows that The Black Tower and the Asha'man are Rands personal army, they even recruit people asking if they want to fight for the lord Dragon.

 

Not to pick nits, but isn't the Black Tower more of Taim/Demandred/Moridin's personal army? Seems like the Ashaman are going to pose a pretty big problem for Rand in the final book.

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

 

Androl and those that he knows are loyal to Rand at the BT are outnumbered by the the darkfriend ashaman, however there's also a neutral faction. There could very well be 20-25% of darkfriends among the ashamann, 5-10% of ashaman who are without a doubt loyal to Rand and the rest neutral. Androl is still outnumbered in this situation. So his sense of panic is perfectly understandable.

 

Also the total number of male channelers in the BT is equal to less than half the total amount of ashaman. Logain says it straight out in KoD. And those are clearly under Rand's orders.

 

Again with the fictitious numbers. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this statement that X amount of people is fact and the absolute case is not true. It's supporting an argument with false statements rather than analyzing the information we have at hand that can be confirmed. The rest is supposition that can fluctuate based on how the person making the case wants it to fall. Has BS come out and said 20 percent of the BT is darkfriend and 5 percent is loyal to the Dragon with 75 percent not picking a side? The only evidence we have to rely on is anecdotal and remains that the PoV we've been given is that the size of the force in the BT that Rand can certainly count on is small.

 

We have no accurate count. We have no idea what the numbers are, in truth. What we've been given is a point of view that provides us with real fear and a sense that because of overwhelming odds, the BT will be lost to the Dragon and those inside loyal to him will be "dealt with" by those loyal to Taim. Their first instinct isn't to assert authority for the Dragon, it's not to rely on the support of those who are loyal to the Dragon to deal with the threat. It's not even to try to recruit any neutral party to their side. It's to run and run fast.

 

Regardless of who remains outside of the BT and what their numbers are, by the same logic used in the argument that the WT will be diminshed and lose power and standing in the eyes of the public...the actions of those still in the BT proper will undercut whatever standing Rand and those loyal to him have gained if they aren't dealt with. Any significant force of male channelers at this point in the world could be logically concluded will reinforce any belief among the populace as a whole that male channelers can not be trusted and should be handled. It could also be logically argued that Taim's actions (and those of his loyalists) will then bolster the power of the WT and actually restore it to a greater level of power because they are the only force who has proven to be able to deal with the "threat" of male channelers.

 

Ergo, it would be quite correct to say that the BT will logically prove to be a pretty big problem for Rand. Whether Rand or Logain is the one to deal with the threat remains to be seen.

 

I guess this means I would be White Ajah?

 

First of all, I never said the numbers I gave were fact, I clearly said "could".

 

Secondly, I do expect the BT to be a problem for Rand, afterall even 25% of all the ashaman being darkfriends is a big problem. And that even with Rand being able to rely on all the ashaman out of the BT, who do make up at least half the total ashaman. And that number is a fact.

 

Obviously Androl wouldn't be worried unless his situation is bad. He probably doesn't have a much better idea than we do about the number of darkfriends. For all he knows every last one, except for the few he knows he can count on, could be darkfriends. That's already a cause for fear and it doesn't have to be true. No, we are not given any clear numbers, I just tend to think that the proportion of darkfriends in the BT will more or less be equal to that in the WT.

 

As for losing standing, well yes, but then again the general opinion on the the BT already isn't exactly great. The WT really has way more to lose from the revelation of darkfriends being among them.

I don't know if the revelation would bolster the WT's power, afterall it wouldn't make their failings go away, but it would certainly reinforce the belief that the WT has that men and certainly men who can channel are not to be trusted. Which is sort of why I think that any fighting among ashaman will be nearly exclusivly among ashaman. In other words no official aid from the WT.

 

My apologies Mastar Ablar. One of my pet peeves is when numbers are thrown out as a factual number when it's just speculation, because all too often then that number gets thrown around as fact. I owe you the apology and am sorry for not reading more closely.

 

Myself, I think the situation is a little more dire as the BT is a situation in which subversion could be taken much more openly than in the WT due to the fact that the one doing the subverting is the leader and Rand has been an absentee parent more or less. The WT would theoretically be much more difficult to subvert openly and brazenly as an established society. Of course, with the constant comings and goings and the number of people who were out of the tower, it proved more easy than it probably should have been. I would think the chances for the BT to have more enemies for the Dragon is consequently greater just by the nature of the society and how the leadership is established currently. Who knows? It will be interesting to see it play out and I am very curious to see how they handle it compared to how Egwene and the WT handled their situation.

[XXX]

 

More than 1/2 of the tower are under the direct command of the Dragon and are in the field...of the rest in the tower the majority are not with Taim. I would say around 20-25% are with Taim, the same percentage of the Black Ajah among the Aes Sedai.

 

As with everything in the Wheel of time universe..there is a balance between the female and male chanellers...the Aes Sedai are no more cleaner or superior in anyway to the Asha'man regardless of what they think.

 

Not true. You have posted this in several threads, but the idea that those remaining in the BT are a small percentage is just based on a number you have made up. The real sense that is given from ToM is that those in the BT not under the direct control of Taim or allied with him (whether by force or choice) is quite small. Were the oppressors not the ones in the majority, there would be no need for such a tense scene when Androl seeks out Pevara. The fact that they believe they can fit all of the people who will want to leave in one house gives a direct indication of how small the numbers are of those loyal to the Dragon still in the BT.

 

If BS were to come out and say that an estimation of that small a percentage is correct, then I would come back and say to him that he did a terrible job in painting the scene then, because there is a palpable sense of dread and panic of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by Androl and company in that PoV. It's being clearly set up as the BT being a massive problem for Rand. Even he comments on it with a sense of foreboding that he's lost control there when he sends

 

 

Huh..how is that? Let me break it down. Let us say there are X amount of Ash'aman in the BT to begin with. Logain takes out more than 1/2 from the tower at rand's direction and he makes it a point to say that he left all of Taim's allies back. So the no of Asha'man now left at the tower is less than 50%..let us say 45%. Out of the 45% there are 2 factions..even if the vast majority are with Taim, that still will not be more than 30% of all the Asha'man in the world considering that the 2 rivers men are a big bulk of the men in the BT and they are all loyal to the Dragon.

 

Now if 20-30% of all Ashaman in the world are DF and they are all in the BT where only 45% of all the Ashaman are at present,that makes them a huge majority among the people still at the BT.

[CaseyWoL]

Egwene doesn't bother me that much in general, but she seems to think that because she's Amyrlin that she gets to go all snob-town on Gawyn. The part where he has to be subservient to Egwene as a Warder is understandably character development (to balance out his impulsiveness). Despite that, it's yet another moment of "men are oafs that need to be trained" that is actually not at all realistic. She never used to care about his personality before, she was head over heels. Her treatment of him now seems really pushed. In fact, her reign is like a small reflection of Rand's previous "hardness", where he thought he had to be strong and unemotional to be a leader.

 

I tend to think we're supposed to dislike Egwene. We root for Gawyn because his PoV moments show us he was doing the right thing and acting in the best interests of the Amyrlin.

[XXX]

And it really does not matter if the "people" look to the WT for protection against the BT..the WT can do absolutely nothing about it. Even delusional Egwene admits to that when they are discussing if the WT will claim ownership over all objects of power in the world. The men are stronger in the OP and especially stronger in the combat weaves(Fire and Earth)..which is why the female AS could do squat when the male AS went mad and broke the world. They had to wait for them to die out as they could not stop them.

 

The WT could handle false dragons and men who could channel when they were isolated and untrained..the Asha'man are a whole different breed.

[WMBunt]

And it really does not matter if the "people" look to the WT for protection against the BT..the WT can do absolutely nothing about it. Even delusional Egwene admits to that when they are discussing if the WT will claim ownership over all objects of power in the world. The men are stronger in the OP and especially stronger in the combat weaves(Fire and Earth)..which is why the female AS could do squat when the male AS went mad and broke the world. They had to wait for them to die out as they could not stop them.

 

The WT could handle false dragons and men who could channel when they were isolated and untrained..the Asha'man are a whole different breed.

 

Again, not completely true. You're twisting things because you don't like Egwene and the Aes Sedai. Men are stronger in fire and earth, women are stronger in air and water. Spirit is the power they are equally strong in (and very few have any real strength in). Men can hold more of the power, women are more adept at channeling. Think of it as brute force vs. skill (in very basic terms) or fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. So, while yes it's true that the strongest man in raw power is stronger than the strongest woman...that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

Men can not link. Women can, thereby providing women with a potential advantage in a conflict with male channelers should it arise. RJ even cautioned not to confuse strength with effectiveness. You're mistakenly assuming brute strength on the part of an individual will always conquer cunning and teamwork.

 

Sammael may be stronger than Lanfear, but if Lanfear and Graendal link does that matter? It's more complex than you want it to be. That's why RJ built the whole series on the premise of balance and counterbalance.

 

I enter into my own theory and supposition here, but:

 

We know the female Aes Sedai were not able to control the males at the Breaking, but that more than likely has to do with the nature of insanity and the breadth and scope of the cataclysmic event at the time and less to do with anything related to strength in the power. The sheer amount of chaos alone at that time would probably have resulted in very similar failure on the part of men trying to control a sea of women gone mad had the roles been reversed. The nature of the powers the sexes hold strength in also likely played a role in the Breaking, too.

[Observer]

On the Egwene thing: A host of reasons make Egwene possible. She essentially experienced several apprenticeships for power, experiencing more unique challenges than anyone else among the Aes Sedai. I have particulars in mind and they are impressive... And she is, surprisingly (to me), my favorite character. Also, I love Haggis' excellent insights into the gathering armies and Rand.

[MasterAblar]

And it really does not matter if the "people" look to the WT for protection against the BT..the WT can do absolutely nothing about it. Even delusional Egwene admits to that when they are discussing if the WT will claim ownership over all objects of power in the world. The men are stronger in the OP and especially stronger in the combat weaves(Fire and Earth)..which is why the female AS could do squat when the male AS went mad and broke the world. They had to wait for them to die out as they could not stop them.

 

The WT could handle false dragons and men who could channel when they were isolated and untrained..the Asha'man are a whole different breed.

 

Again, not completely true. You're twisting things because you don't like Egwene and the Aes Sedai. Men are stronger in fire and earth, women are stronger in air and water. Spirit is the power they are equally strong in (and very few have any real strength in). Men can hold more of the power, women are more adept at channeling. Think of it as brute force vs. skill (in very basic terms) or fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. So, while yes it's true that the strongest man in raw power is stronger than the strongest woman...that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

Men can not link. Women can, thereby providing women with a potential advantage in a conflict with male channelers should it arise. RJ even cautioned not to confuse strength with effectiveness. You're mistakenly assuming brute strength on the part of an individual will always conquer cunning and teamwork.

 

Sammael may be stronger than Lanfear, but if Lanfear and Graendal link does that matter? It's more complex than you want it to be. That's why RJ built the whole series on the premise of balance and counterbalance.

 

I enter into my own theory and supposition here, but:

 

We know the female Aes Sedai were not able to control the males at the Breaking, but that more than likely has to do with the nature of insanity and the breadth and scope of the cataclysmic event at the time and less to do with anything related to strength in the power. The sheer amount of chaos alone at that time would probably have resulted in very similar failure on the part of men trying to control a sea of women gone mad had the roles been reversed. The nature of the powers the sexes hold strength in also likely played a role in the Breaking, too.

 

Well, whether strength is better suited to battle than dexterity or not (If it matters, I tend to think it is based on a few passages in the books), and whether fire and earth are better suited to battle as well than water and air, I don't think it matters so much when comparing ashaman and aes sedai in battle. The ashaman are quite simply trained for the sole purpose of being weapons and fighting, which is definitely not the case of the aes sedai. So long as that remains true, the advantages stength and dexterity give are rather meaningless in the big picture.

[Kahsm]

Egwene doesn't bother me that much in general, but she seems to think that because she's Amyrlin that she gets to go all snob-town on Gawyn. The part where he has to be subservient to Egwene as a Warder is understandably character development (to balance out his impulsiveness). Despite that, it's yet another moment of "men are oafs that need to be trained" that is actually not at all realistic. She never used to care about his personality before, she was head over heels. Her treatment of him now seems really pushed. In fact, her reign is like a small reflection of Rand's previous "hardness", where he thought he had to be strong and unemotional to be a leader.

 

I tend to think we're supposed to dislike Egwene. We root for Gawyn because his PoV moments show us he was doing the right thing and acting in the best interests of the Amyrlin.

 

If Gawyn wants to be the Amyrlin's warder, he needs to learn to not overtly disobey her, at LEAST in public. How often did Lan disobey Moir? He often offered counter opinions, but usually always did want she told him to in the end.

 

This would be particularly important for the Amyrlin. Could you imagine a secret service guy publicly lambasting the president for something he felt was foolish? They have jurisdiction over his security, yes, but they still wouldn't overtly disobey an order. It would all be done behind closed doors or in whispers behind backs. That is what Gawyn needed to learn. As it was, he would call Egwene a fool in front of the whole tower (as his first prince training seemed to require of him to counter Elayne). That's not acceptable however "equal" you think they should be.

[XXX]

And it really does not matter if the "people" look to the WT for protection against the BT..the WT can do absolutely nothing about it. Even delusional Egwene admits to that when they are discussing if the WT will claim ownership over all objects of power in the world. The men are stronger in the OP and especially stronger in the combat weaves(Fire and Earth)..which is why the female AS could do squat when the male AS went mad and broke the world. They had to wait for them to die out as they could not stop them.

 

The WT could handle false dragons and men who could channel when they were isolated and untrained..the Asha'man are a whole different breed.

 

Again, not completely true. You're twisting things because you don't like Egwene and the Aes Sedai. Men are stronger in fire and earth, women are stronger in air and water. Spirit is the power they are equally strong in (and very few have any real strength in). Men can hold more of the power, women are more adept at channeling. Think of it as brute force vs. skill (in very basic terms) or fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. So, while yes it's true that the strongest man in raw power is stronger than the strongest woman...that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

Men can not link. Women can, thereby providing women with a potential advantage in a conflict with male channelers should it arise. RJ even cautioned not to confuse strength with effectiveness. You're mistakenly assuming brute strength on the part of an individual will always conquer cunning and teamwork.

 

Sammael may be stronger than Lanfear, but if Lanfear and Graendal link does that matter? It's more complex than you want it to be. That's why RJ built the whole series on the premise of balance and counterbalance.

 

I enter into my own theory and supposition here, but:

 

We know the female Aes Sedai were not able to control the males at the Breaking, but that more than likely has to do with the nature of insanity and the breadth and scope of the cataclysmic event at the time and less to do with anything related to strength in the power. The sheer amount of chaos alone at that time would probably have resulted in very similar failure on the part of men trying to control a sea of women gone mad had the roles been reversed. The nature of the powers the sexes hold strength in also likely played a role in the Breaking, too.

 

 

Did you just make up that women are better skilled at chanelling..where exactly did your read that? And why would the women be more cunning?The AS look like morons for the most part in the series.

 

None of what you say proves that the Aes Sedai can do squat about the BT..they can do nothing. BTW the Asha'man are trained to fight and only fight...As proved by the ridiculously easy dispatching of Elaida's army.

[Durinax]

women are more adept at weaving, its an rj quote. They are not more cunning, that is all within the person

[WMBunt]

And it really does not matter if the "people" look to the WT for protection against the BT..the WT can do absolutely nothing about it. Even delusional Egwene admits to that when they are discussing if the WT will claim ownership over all objects of power in the world. The men are stronger in the OP and especially stronger in the combat weaves(Fire and Earth)..which is why the female AS could do squat when the male AS went mad and broke the world. They had to wait for them to die out as they could not stop them.

 

The WT could handle false dragons and men who could channel when they were isolated and untrained..the Asha'man are a whole different breed.

 

Again, not completely true. You're twisting things because you don't like Egwene and the Aes Sedai. Men are stronger in fire and earth, women are stronger in air and water. Spirit is the power they are equally strong in (and very few have any real strength in). Men can hold more of the power, women are more adept at channeling. Think of it as brute force vs. skill (in very basic terms) or fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. So, while yes it's true that the strongest man in raw power is stronger than the strongest woman...that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

Men can not link. Women can, thereby providing women with a potential advantage in a conflict with male channelers should it arise. RJ even cautioned not to confuse strength with effectiveness. You're mistakenly assuming brute strength on the part of an individual will always conquer cunning and teamwork.

 

Sammael may be stronger than Lanfear, but if Lanfear and Graendal link does that matter? It's more complex than you want it to be. That's why RJ built the whole series on the premise of balance and counterbalance.

 

I enter into my own theory and supposition here, but:

 

We know the female Aes Sedai were not able to control the males at the Breaking, but that more than likely has to do with the nature of insanity and the breadth and scope of the cataclysmic event at the time and less to do with anything related to strength in the power. The sheer amount of chaos alone at that time would probably have resulted in very similar failure on the part of men trying to control a sea of women gone mad had the roles been reversed. The nature of the powers the sexes hold strength in also likely played a role in the Breaking, too.

 

 

Did you just make up that women are better skilled at chanelling..where exactly did your read that? And why would the women be more cunning?The AS look like morons for the most part in the series.

 

None of what you say proves that the Aes Sedai can do squat about the BT..they can do nothing. BTW the Asha'man are trained to fight and only fight...As proved by the ridiculously easy dispatching of Elaida's army.

 

It came from RJ himself. And I don't know that the women would be more cunning, but it's as safe an assumption as yours that brute strength would always win over guile and cooperation. Here is the blog entry where RJ says that because of the skill with weaving, the strongest woman can do anything the strongest man can with the power and to the same degree.

 

"Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree." -RJ Blog from Oct 3, 2005.

 

Hope that helps clear it up.

[Suttree]

Did you just make up that women are better skilled at chanelling..where exactly did your read that?

 

No he didn't, RJ said so...

[XXX]

Thanks for giving me RJ's quote..however that means the WT and BT are at best equal in power. So my main point that the WT cannot do anything about the BT stands.

[Superhal]

Thanks for giving me RJ's quote..however that means the WT and BT are at best equal in power. So my main point that the WT cannot do anything about the BT stands.

 

I didn't see your original post, but if men and women are equal, then it's a numbers game. As of ToM, I believe there are roughly 1.2k women in the tower, although 75% are novices (mostly Kin,) and about 1k in the BT with about 75% being soldiers/dedicated (assuming Rand automatically promote them after a few battles, in the Taim-controlled BT, there are only ~40 full AM.)

[XXX]

Thanks for giving me RJ's quote..however that means the WT and BT are at best equal in power. So my main point that the WT cannot do anything about the BT stands.

 

I didn't see your original post, but if men and women are equal, then it's a numbers game. As of ToM, I believe there are roughly 1.2k women in the tower, although 75% are novices (mostly Kin,) and about 1k in the BT with about 75% being soldiers/dedicated (assuming Rand automatically promote them after a few battles, in the Taim-controlled BT, there are only ~40 full AM.)

 

Only difference is that the Solider learns to blast things and only that..while the Novice knows nothing about it.

[Superhal]

Thanks for giving me RJ's quote..however that means the WT and BT are at best equal in power. So my main point that the WT cannot do anything about the BT stands.

 

I didn't see your original post, but if men and women are equal, then it's a numbers game. As of ToM, I believe there are roughly 1.2k women in the tower, although 75% are novices (mostly Kin,) and about 1k in the BT with about 75% being soldiers/dedicated (assuming Rand automatically promote them after a few battles, in the Taim-controlled BT, there are only ~40 full AM.)

 

Only difference is that the Solider learns to blast things and only that..while the Novice knows nothing about it.

 

On the other hand, the Kin are advanced Healers, and there's a possibility that AS who survived being stilled or burned out (like Setalle Anan) who joined the Kin could be Healed and returned to fully trained AS status.

 

I dunno why everybody is so hung up on the battle power of the AS. A good healer can turn 10 soldiers into 100, as anyone whose played a cleric in an RPG would know.

[CaseyWoL]

Egwene doesn't bother me that much in general, but she seems to think that because she's Amyrlin that she gets to go all snob-town on Gawyn. The part where he has to be subservient to Egwene as a Warder is understandably character development (to balance out his impulsiveness). Despite that, it's yet another moment of "men are oafs that need to be trained" that is actually not at all realistic. She never used to care about his personality before, she was head over heels. Her treatment of him now seems really pushed. In fact, her reign is like a small reflection of Rand's previous "hardness", where he thought he had to be strong and unemotional to be a leader.

 

I tend to think we're supposed to dislike Egwene. We root for Gawyn because his PoV moments show us he was doing the right thing and acting in the best interests of the Amyrlin.

 

If Gawyn wants to be the Amyrlin's warder, he needs to learn to not overtly disobey her, at LEAST in public. How often did Lan disobey Moir? He often offered counter opinions, but usually always did want she told him to in the end.

 

This would be particularly important for the Amyrlin. Could you imagine a secret service guy publicly lambasting the president for something he felt was foolish? They have jurisdiction over his security, yes, but they still wouldn't overtly disobey an order. It would all be done behind closed doors or in whispers behind backs. That is what Gawyn needed to learn. As it was, he would call Egwene a fool in front of the whole tower (as his first prince training seemed to require of him to counter Elayne). That's not acceptable however "equal" you think they should be.

 

 

Oh yeah, I agree on that, for sure. It's like how real bodyguards don't question the authority of whoever they're protecting, like The President, because it's just not their job to be doing that. They're not the decision makers. It is simply the trend of men being cast as the fools that doesn't sit well with me, as though it's some kind of theme.

[XXX]

 

On the other hand, the Kin are advanced Healers, and there's a possibility that AS who survived being stilled or burned out (like Setalle Anan) who joined the Kin could be Healed and returned to fully trained AS status.

 

I dunno why everybody is so hung up on the battle power of the AS. A good healer can turn 10 soldiers into 100, as anyone whose played a cleric in an RPG would know.

 

 

Did RJ say that women were better at healing than men..reading from the books, every Asha'man is taught healing and Flinn seems as good a healer as anyone.

[Gordar]

Thanks for giving me RJ's quote..however that means the WT and BT are at best equal in power. So my main point that the WT cannot do anything about the BT stands.

 

I didn't see your original post, but if men and women are equal, then it's a numbers game. As of ToM, I believe there are roughly 1.2k women in the tower, although 75% are novices (mostly Kin,) and about 1k in the BT with about 75% being soldiers/dedicated (assuming Rand automatically promote them after a few battles, in the Taim-controlled BT, there are only ~40 full AM.)

 

Only difference is that the Solider learns to blast things and only that..while the Novice knows nothing about it.

 

On the other hand, the Kin are advanced Healers, and there's a possibility that AS who survived being stilled or burned out (like Setalle Anan) who joined the Kin could be Healed and returned to fully trained AS status.

 

I dunno why everybody is so hung up on the battle power of the AS. A good healer can turn 10 soldiers into 100, as anyone whose played a cleric in an RPG would know.

 

 

Because a good healer needs to get close to the victim, a good healer gets tired if he or she has to heal a lot of people, the best healers still can't heal the dead & unless the healer uses the OP, it takes a lot of time for the wounds to heal.

 

Besides, unlike RPGs we have never seen anyone heal him or herself with the OP, so this might in fact be impossible. Unlike RPGs, where the cleric can heal himself constantly if he's attacked (& he usually is), the Aes Sedai don't have this luxury, so if their base is attacked they cannot defend themselves for a long time.

 

Just like in real life, the Aes Sedai healers will probably choose to stay far behind the front lines and heal the injured after the actual battle, since there & then is where they're the most effective.