Balefire question

[ElAguila]

This is a purely hypothetical question using the boundaries that we know of within the world of the story. We know that balefire burns you out of the pattern. The stronger the balefire the further back in time your pattern is erased. Would it have been possible for Rand to use the Choedan Kal and channel that through the bar that was stolen by the Black Ajah that created balefire? If so could he have created strong enough balefire to use on Lanfear so that she was burned out of the pattern before she created the bore that breached the prison of the DO thus averting the breaking of the world?

[Stitch]

First off we do not know if the balefire bar will work for a male channeler, nor if the use of that bar enables the weaving of a more efficient version of balefire (i.e. more bang for your buck), so I am ignoring the rod. Lets assume that the CK was powerful enough to erase several thousand years worth of a single person's thread... that would change an extraordinary amount of the pattern, probably unraveling it FAR more than boring a hole would have done in the first place, or the breaking of the world by the mad males, indeed the damage done by the balefire may possibly destroy the pattern altogether.

 

However I dont think even the CK is THAT powerful, possibly not by several hundred (even thousand) times.

 

 

What I find interesting to note though, is that the DO seems to want the pattern destroyed, yet his Chosen stopped using it for fear of destroying the pattern, yet they think that Naeblis (sp?) is going to be allowed to use it... that seems a rather strange arrangement IMO.

[WhiskyJack]

1) Something like that would unravel the pattern.

2) Changing history can change the circumstance in which Rand was born and if Rand is not born due to such "change", who balefired the crap out of Lanfear in first place?

3) The "bar" probably will melt long before you can say boo.

[Smittyphi]

You have to take the rod the BA stole out of the picture. I believe the furthest back you could go is 2 hours with balefire and is documented.

 

Lot of stuff here but use the "find" feature and typ in "bring back" and read the sentence about Asmodean

[jwood01]

First off we do not know if the balefire bar will work for a male channeler, nor if the use of that bar enables the weaving of a more efficient version of balefire (i.e. more bang for your buck), so I am ignoring the rod. Lets assume that the CK was powerful enough to erase several thousand years worth of a single person's thread... that would change an extraordinary amount of the pattern, probably unraveling it FAR more than boring a hole would have done in the first place, or the breaking of the world by the mad males, indeed the damage done by the balefire may possibly destroy the pattern altogether.

 

However I dont think even the CK is THAT powerful, possibly not by several hundred (even thousand) times.

 

 

What I find interesting to note though, is that the DO seems to want the pattern destroyed, yet his Chosen stopped using it for fear of destroying the pattern, yet they think that Naeblis (sp?) is going to be allowed to use it... that seems a rather strange arrangement IMO.

 

This has confused me as well. Hopefully someone here can provide some insight on this. Demandred was asked by the DO if he would use balefire in his service in LoC, and on another thread people mentioned that they believe he was going around balefiring things off-screen, the effect of which is unknown. But if the DO wants to destroy the patternm why not get his minions to do it via balefire? Maybe he/she knows that an order like this may cause his minions to betray him because all of them except Moridin/Ishy are in it for the power and do not want the pattern destroyed. I am really not sure. Even then Morridin could force Cyndane, and Moggy to link with him and then balefire the hell out of Randland.

[Zentari]

You have to take the rod the BA stole out of the picture. I believe the furthest back you could go is 2 hours with balefire and is documented.

 

 

Brandon: Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100 fold…let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.

Let's say a full ring (not 13) with Rand at the front, with the Choedan Kal.I still don't see him turning more than a week or two or a month max.That is assuming a linear progression in the power required.

[Nightstrike]

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Chester County Books, Philadelphia 6 November 2009 - Paul Grow reporting

 

One fan asked him...if the balefiring of Graendal could bring back Asmodean, if in fact Graendal was the person who killed him. Brandon essentially said no, because it happened much too long ago. At best balefire burns someone out of the Pattern 3 days to a week at the absolute most. But usually more like 5 minutes.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Matt: Let’s say, if a Forsaken was responsible for killing another Forsaken.

Brandon: Uh huh

Matt: And said Forsaken was balefired...

Brandon: You are under the assumption...You are trying to figure out who killed Asmodean again. That’s what you are trying to do and I’m not going to get caught and let you know...

Matt: It’s a legit question...and I’m sure whatever is said at this table stays at this table...

Brandon: I’m sure, the leader of Theoryland and the guy taping this...

~Much laughter from table~

Brandon: Let’s divorce it. Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us, what have you determined, from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.

Matt: Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.

Brandon: Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done...

Matt: Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most.

Brandon: Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100 fold…let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.

Matt: Like I said to Jennifer, it is my job at Theoryland to entertain these ideas.

Brandon: Yes it is, it is your job to entertain them. But in the terms of Mythbusters let’s go ahead and call that one “Busted” in the realistic world. I’ve got to give you at least something, so I’ll at least give you that...If it were possible to do things like that, we’d have the Dark One just going and balefiring you know Tam so Rand never gets picked up off the mountain....

[jemron]

Yeah, basically Rand DID use the CK to balefire a whole palace of people. They may have gone back a few minutes, but, Rand using all that power to Balefire still didn't erase more than a day or two at MOST. So, no, it absolutely wouldn't be possible to balefire Lanfear "so hard" that she would be burned back to before the opening of the Bore.

 

Also, I wonder how a person's thread is effected when they're put into a new body by the DO. If Cyndane were bfed right after being transmigrated, would it effect her life as Lanfear before that? Or is transmigration like a new thread/new beginning?

[Zentari]

Yeah, basically Rand DID use the CK to balefire a whole palace of people. They may have gone back a few minutes, but, Rand using all that power to Balefire still didn't erase more than a day or two at MOST. So, no, it absolutely wouldn't be possible to balefire Lanfear "so hard" that she would be burned back to before the opening of the Bore.

 

Also, I wonder how a person's thread is effected when they're put into a new body by the DO. If Cyndane were bfed right after being transmigrated, would it effect her life as Lanfear before that? Or is transmigration like a new thread/new beginning?

Since it affects the soul as well as the body, chances are that it would unmade their actions before as well (since in effect, the DO didn't snatch their soul as far as the pattern is concerned).

[HeadAche01]

It'd be impossible, even though I think the Choedan Kal is enormously powerful (its full usage can be felt about everywhere in Randland), I think the balefire timescale thing, is more of a exponential scale, instead of a linear one. Also when you'd do that, the AoL would continue, the continents would be different, probably rand wouldnt even be born.

[jemron]

Yeah, basically Rand DID use the CK to balefire a whole palace of people. They may have gone back a few minutes, but, Rand using all that power to Balefire still didn't erase more than a day or two at MOST. So, no, it absolutely wouldn't be possible to balefire Lanfear "so hard" that she would be burned back to before the opening of the Bore.

 

Also, I wonder how a person's thread is effected when they're put into a new body by the DO. If Cyndane were bfed right after being transmigrated, would it effect her life as Lanfear before that? Or is transmigration like a new thread/new beginning?

Since it affects the soul as well as the body, chances are that it would unmade their actions before as well (since in effect, the DO didn't snatch their soul as far as the pattern is concerned).

 

I guess that makes sense. In the case of transmigration, their thread never stops existing. The DO somehow snatches their soul and puts in in a new body before the thread dies away in the Pattern. So, now my question is, does a new "thread" in the pattern start at birth? If so, what would happen if you balefired a baby after they were born? Would they just return to their mother's womb but be a few months younger/less developed? Or would they cease to exist at all?

 

Odd, I know, and there's probably no answer, but has RJ ever said when a thread starts and when it ends? Birth and death I assume??

[Stitch]

Im not sure on the thread start and end being determined by birth + death given that the wheel spins out souls time and time again through rebirth, it may well be the SAME thread given that they are being used for often similar purposes (as seen in the case of the heroes of the horn) instead I presume that the threads present are at least RELATIVELY fixed... perhaps implying a total number of threads (less balefired peeps).

 

Given that the DO is able to bring someone back to life using a body, its probable that it is shoving their thread into the vessel in much the same way that the pattern spins them out for rebirth... except in the DO's case it is very quickly done and they retain their memories (at least to a large extent); this would also seem to suggest that those zapped with balefire cannot be reborn through the wheel, but I dont think this has ever been confirmed/denied.

[icspots]

 

I guess that makes sense. In the case of transmigration, their thread never stops existing. The DO somehow snatches their soul and puts in in a new body before the thread dies away in the Pattern. So, now my question is, does a new "thread" in the pattern start at birth? If so, what would happen if you balefired a baby after they were born? Would they just return to their mother's womb but be a few months younger/less developed? Or would they cease to exist at all?

 

Odd, I know, and there's probably no answer, but has RJ ever said when a thread starts and when it ends? Birth and death I assume??

 

If you balefired a baby the baby would ceast to exist just like an adult. In the case of where the burned back balefire would go back to a point where before they were born but where their mother was pregnant I assume that the mother would be pregnant and then not pregnant. It would probably be a little confusing for her.

 

I don't know if RJ said it, but yes the threads are people's lives, so birth and death would make sense.

 

Im not sure on the thread start and end being determined by birth + death given that the wheel spins out souls time and time again through rebirth, it may well be the SAME thread given that they are being used for often similar purposes (as seen in the case of the heroes of the horn) instead I presume that the threads present are at least RELATIVELY fixed... perhaps implying a total number of threads (less balefired peeps).

 

Given that the DO is able to bring someone back to life using a body, its probable that it is shoving their thread into the vessel in much the same way that the pattern spins them out for rebirth... except in the DO's case it is very quickly done and they retain their memories (at least to a large extent); this would also seem to suggest that those zapped with balefire cannot be reborn through the wheel, but I dont think this has ever been confirmed/denied.

 

They're the same soul but different threads. Each of Birgitte's previous lives was a different thread even though they were all the same soul. What the DO does in transmigration is different from a rebirth. A rebirth takes a soul and creates a thread. While each thread may follow a similar path (i.e. Birgitee is almost always an archer) they are distinct people. Transmigration takes a thread which was cut and puts that same thread (with the personality and memories of that thread) directly into a body.

 

On the OP there's no evidence that the balefire rod Ter'Angreal makes better balefire. I've always seen it as a tool which channelers too weak to weave balefire natively could use in order to produce it. I mean look at Moiraine. She's one of the WT's strongest channelers and all she could manage was to burn out a few seconds. Based on how difficult the rod was to control I can't imagine that it's an improvement over creating your own balefire (assuming you have the strength). It's more of a 'well at least we can do it now even if it sucks' type of weapon.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

On the OP there's no evidence that the balefire rod Ter'Angreal makes better balefire. I've always seen it as a tool which channelers too weak to weave balefire natively could use in order to produce it. I mean look at Moiraine. She's one of the WT's strongest channelers and all she could manage was to burn out a few seconds. Based on how difficult the rod was to control I can't imagine that it's an improvement over creating your own balefire (assuming you have the strength). It's more of a 'well at least we can do it now even if it sucks' type of weapon.

 

I agree with there being no evidence, but I must pose the question that if the rod did not amplify it somehow then it would be pointless as a ter'angreal for an Aes Sedai who is already strong enough to channel balefire. The fact that it is hard to control makes it even more unattractive. Furthermore if its purpose was for those too weak then it must have amplifying capabilities.

 

I've always thought that it was never meant to be held and directed by a person, but as an essential part to a weapon that produced balefire. This, to me explains why it is unwieldy. I believe that, like Callandor, it has no buffer as a buffer was not necessary for the weapon it was designed to be a part of. Perhaps it was like the 'gun barrel' of such a weapon.