Rand and Egwene at the FOM

[randsc]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted

Rather, if she went along with the exact plan then it would've happened. If she cooperated with him and come up with a better plan together, who knows.

 

But that assumes that LTT was willing to compromise and come up with a better plan.

 

 

Which we know for a fact he was. In fact, even though he didn't support Latra's plan, feeling it too dangerous, he didn't proceed with his own until the access keys were lost.

 

Adherents of the "Well, Latra turned out to be right" school of thought should remember that LTT may have been right about Latra's plan. The CK may well have destroyed the world, if she had been able to use them.

[MasterAblar]

Also, unlike LPD, LTT did nothing to stop her plan from having the best chances of succeding.

[jwood01]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted

Rather, if she went along with the exact plan then it would've happened. If she cooperated with him and come up with a better plan together, who knows.

 

But that assumes that LTT was willing to compromise and come up with a better plan.

 

 

Which we know for a fact he was. In fact, even though he didn't support Latra's plan, feeling it too dangerous, he didn't proceed with his own until the access keys were lost.

 

Adherents of the "Well, Latra turned out to be right" school of thought should remember that LTT may have been right about Latra's plan. The CK may well have destroyed the world, if she had been able to use them.

 

Makes sense.

[XXX]

Something in his might and wisdom ought to know.

Nobody is calling him "Superman" not even himself. He knows something of what needs to be done but there is still something missing which is what he wants Min to find. That doesn't mean she will, Moiraine may show up w/ the information he needs, but what he needs he usually gets-that's just how Taveren works.

 

Clearly you have not read any other "Why didn't Egwene, a woman who's now responsible for not only Aes Sedai, but safeguarding the world, and maintaining the peace of nations, instantly do what Rand wanted despite the fact it would obviously sound crazy from anyone and especially someone believed to be literally -- insane!"

 

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

 

The Amyrlin is no more responsible for saving the world..Aes Sedai are no more the most powerful group of channellers..she is now the leader of one faction of channellers thats all.

 

The greatest thing in the books is how the female Aes Sedai have been brought down from their perch. The Dragon is now superior to all of them and the male channellers, Aeil etc all treat them as equals.

[Apple13]

Something in his might and wisdom ought to know.

Nobody is calling him "Superman" not even himself. He knows something of what needs to be done but there is still something missing which is what he wants Min to find. That doesn't mean she will, Moiraine may show up w/ the information he needs, but what he needs he usually gets-that's just how Taveren works.

 

Clearly you have not read any other "Why didn't Egwene, a woman who's now responsible for not only Aes Sedai, but safeguarding the world, and maintaining the peace of nations, instantly do what Rand wanted despite the fact it would obviously sound crazy from anyone and especially someone believed to be literally -- insane!"

 

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

 

The Amyrlin is no more responsible for saving the world..Aes Sedai are no more the most powerful group of channellers..she is now the leader of one faction of channellers thats all.

 

The greatest thing in the books is how the female Aes Sedai have been brought down from their perch. The Dragon is now superior to all of them and the male channellers, Aeil etc all treat them as equals.

 

The Amyrlin is not the person responsible for saving the world yes. Broadly speaking, that's Rand's job, but Rand does need help doing it. Even he has admitted that he needs the Aes Sedai to agree to his plans in order to save the world. She is more than the leader of a faction of channellers, because the Aes Sedai are more than just channellers; they are all sorts of advisors to kings and queens, and they command a certain respect, even though they are not always trusted.

 

And the Aes Sedai losing their perch isn't really the "greatest" thing in the books, is it? It's just one of the many plot points, that's all. Rand being superior to them is just a given, since he's kind of superior to everyone.

[Kahsm]

If you're suggesting that monarchs will be willing to turn to Ashaman for advice before Aes Sedai now you're smokin' something strong. Aes Sedai are probably almost where they've always been. The difference is that our perspective of the world is just much larger than when we read tEotW. Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders all existed in tEotW too, they're just a little more known... but Aes Sedai are shaking off their own willful blindness too, so who knows how they'll come out of this. Fortunately for Aes Sedai, 90% of Randlanders are still as wide-eyed as our three heroes were in book 1. So they'll still command the respect of many.

 

Consider this: if some random farmer saw a Kin, Windfinder, or Wise One channeling, they'd say "It's an Aes Sedai!" -- It's all about branding.

[sleepinghour]

If you're suggesting that monarchs will be willing to turn to Ashaman for advice before Aes Sedai now you're smokin' something strong.

For advice, probably not, though the Asha'man have a few nobles like Algarin that should have some knowledge of politics. But Arad Doman might balk at accepting any more Aes Sedai advisors after Elaida had their king kidnapped, or Tear if Egwene continues to burn bridges with Darlin. What happens at Merrilor will most likely make or break future relations with the Tower. If their countries are attacked after Egwene forced them to bring their entire armies to Merrilor, will they continue to trust the Tower's advice? Elayne will need gateways to save Caemlyn, the Tower army to Tar Valon if the Seanchan's attacked... Egwene's going to have a shortage of people to make the gateways she promised Darlin. Her interactions with Rand could potentially also be either a PR boost or disaster for the Tower and Egwene herself.

 

For other kinds of help, I think people will probably be happier to accept it from Asha'man, as their help is less likely to come with strings attached. Mat asked them for gateways, the Wise One linked with them to create Perrin's hammer, the Aiel wanted them to strengthen their weapons... People might continue to be suspicious of Asha'man for another generation or two until they're fully convinced the Taint is gone, but in the long run I think Asha'man could end up more trusted than Aes Sedai. They're not bound by any Oaths, have no history of manipulating/threatening/kidnapping rulers, don't look any different from regular people, and some of them even have wives and children. They come off more as regular people than the Aes Sedai who try hard never to show any emotions. If you were a Randlander, who would you trust more?

[XXX]

If you're suggesting that monarchs will be willing to turn to Ashaman for advice before Aes Sedai now you're smokin' something strong. Aes Sedai are probably almost where they've always been. The difference is that our perspective of the world is just much larger than when we read tEotW. Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders all existed in tEotW too, they're just a little more known... but Aes Sedai are shaking off their own willful blindness too, so who knows how they'll come out of this. Fortunately for Aes Sedai, 90% of Randlanders are still as wide-eyed as our three heroes were in book 1. So they'll still command the respect of many.

 

Consider this: if some random farmer saw a Kin, Windfinder, or Wise One channeling, they'd say "It's an Aes Sedai!" -- It's all about branding.

 

Actually no.

 

When the books started Siuan Sanche was the most powerful PERSON in the known world. Today Egwene is hardly even the most powerful WOMAN in the world..that would be the Seachan Empress who controls 1/3 of Randland.

 

The main reason the Aes Sedai maintained their power was that they were the most powerful group of channellers or atleast they projected an image of them being somewhat mystical and powerful. Nynaeve mentions that both in ToM and also when the Aes Sedai warned her against helping the Kim stand up for themselves. This "false" image made both the Aiel WO's and the windfinders/Kin show a false awe to the Aes Sedai. Now they know that the Aes Sedai are nothing special.

 

As for the common man/rulers..the Aes Sedai scared them with the one power not in their face but subtly. Who in their right mind will ever stand up to people who can use "magic" like that. The Asha'man changes all that..the Aes Sedai cannot scare the Asha'man. And considering that the difference in power between an Aes Sedai and an Asha'man is the same as the difference between the physical strengths of an average woman and man,it means the average Asha'man is a lot more powerful. If I was a ruler and I had support of Asha'man why on earth will I even care what the Aes Sedai say/advice?

 

Even if the Asha'man are disbanded at the end of the books and merged into the Aes Sedai that still will not change the fact that the female Aes Sedai has lost at least 50% of the power from what they had at the beginning of the books because the men will be at equal standing. In reality the power loss is even more as the WO/Kin and the Seachan will not respect Aes Sedai authority. All in all a pretty steep fall from where they started in the beginning of the books.

[XXX]

 

 

The Amyrlin is not the person responsible for saving the world yes. Broadly speaking, that's Rand's job, but Rand does need help doing it. Even he has admitted that he needs the Aes Sedai to agree to his plans in order to save the world. She is more than the leader of a faction of channellers, because the Aes Sedai are more than just channellers; they are all sorts of advisors to kings and queens, and they command a certain respect, even though they are not always trusted.

 

And the Aes Sedai losing their perch isn't really the "greatest" thing in the books, is it? It's just one of the many plot points, that's all. Rand being superior to them is just a given, since he's kind of superior to everyone.

 

Rand needs help to save the world..he does not need to be "guided" as the delusional Aes Sedai keep referring through out the books..even in ToM. Atleast the strongest and wisest of the Aes Sedai have now decided( Nynaeve /Cadusone etc) that their role is to help the Dragon not lead. They are the helpers a decidedly secondary job just like the Asha'man's role as the Dragon's weapons.

 

Aes Sedai were advisors and helpers because everyone was scared of them..in the new world they are not treated with any respect by a huge group of people started with the Asha'man a group equal in power and individually stronger than the Aes sedai.

[Kahsm]

If you're suggesting that monarchs will be willing to turn to Ashaman for advice before Aes Sedai now you're smokin' something strong. Aes Sedai are probably almost where they've always been. The difference is that our perspective of the world is just much larger than when we read tEotW. Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders all existed in tEotW too, they're just a little more known... but Aes Sedai are shaking off their own willful blindness too, so who knows how they'll come out of this. Fortunately for Aes Sedai, 90% of Randlanders are still as wide-eyed as our three heroes were in book 1. So they'll still command the respect of many.

 

Consider this: if some random farmer saw a Kin, Windfinder, or Wise One channeling, they'd say "It's an Aes Sedai!" -- It's all about branding.

 

Actually no.

 

When the books started Siuan Sanche was the most powerful PERSON in the known world. Today Egwene is hardly even the most powerful WOMAN in the world..that would be the Seachan Empress who controls 1/3 of Randland.

 

The main reason the Aes Sedai maintained their power was that they were the most powerful group of channellers or atleast they projected an image of them being somewhat mystical and powerful. Nynaeve mentions that both in ToM and also when the Aes Sedai warned her against helping the Kim stand up for themselves. This "false" image made both the Aiel WO's and the windfinders/Kin show a false awe to the Aes Sedai. Now they know that the Aes Sedai are nothing special.

 

As for the common man/rulers..the Aes Sedai scared them with the one power not in their face but subtly. Who in their right mind will ever stand up to people who can use "magic" like that. The Asha'man changes all that..the Aes Sedai cannot scare the Asha'man. And considering that the difference in power between an Aes Sedai and an Asha'man is the same as the difference between the physical strengths of an average woman and man,it means the average Asha'man is a lot more powerful. If I was a ruler and I had support of Asha'man why on earth will I even care what the Aes Sedai say/advice?

 

Even if the Asha'man are disbanded at the end of the books and merged into the Aes Sedai that still will not change the fact that the female Aes Sedai has lost at least 50% of the power from what they had at the beginning of the books because the men will be at equal standing. In reality the power loss is even more as the WO/Kin and the Seachan will not respect Aes Sedai authority. All in all a pretty steep fall from where they started in the beginning of the books.

 

Do you think the average person in seanchan controlled territory would spit on an Aes Sedai now? They would be just as fearful/suspicious/grudgingly-respectful as ever. You seem to have forgotten that a lot of the wetlanders didn't even believe Aes Sedai existed at all while Siuan Sanche was Amyrlin, they didn't believe in trollocs! You're mixing up our world perspective as readers with that of mid-to-lesser nobles and common folk who make up the vast majority of the world population.

 

You claim Siuan was the most powerful woman in the world, except a) we have no idea what goes on in Shara, and b) the Empress ruled everything west of the Aryth Ocean, with the capabilities to conquer up to at least the spine of the world (had her armies arrived earlier, Rand wouldn't have been ready to stop her).

 

The Black Tower is a weapon to be aimed, Rand's words. It is not an institution like the Aes Sedai at all. It may become that, but it isn't now. The point was also made that the tower is weak now because the other channeler factions treat them as equals. Well they never bowed to them. There may have been a sense of ignorant respect from Wise Ones and Windfinders that was wiped away when they finally met, but as I said, Aes Sedai also assumed a lot about Aiel and Sea Folk channelers that was wrong, and they're stronger by shaking off their own ignorance.

 

Any changes to the White Tower's political position is going to be years off, and by then, after Rand leaves a gaping power vacuum, the White Tower could come out stronger than ever if they play the cards right (re: holding together Rand's alliances, welcoming Logain (we assume) and the other MCs as a counter-part).

[Manscher]

I somewhat hope that Rand will teach Egwene and rest of the Aes Sedai what it truly meant to be an Aes Sedai in the AoL. To be a servant, not a manipulator or something held higher than monarchs and nobles.

 

After the complete disaster their culture have brought down upon themselves and indirectly upon Rand and the rest of the world, they still acts as if they know better then anybody else in the world and that they should be in charge of everything.

[XXX]

 

Do you think the average person in seanchan controlled territory would spit on an Aes Sedai now? They would be just as fearful/suspicious/grudgingly-respectful as ever. You seem to have forgotten that a lot of the wetlanders didn't even believe Aes Sedai existed at all while Siuan Sanche was Amyrlin, they didn't believe in trollocs! You're mixing up our world perspective as readers with that of mid-to-lesser nobles and common folk who make up the vast majority of the world population.

 

You claim Siuan was the most powerful woman in the world, except a) we have no idea what goes on in Shara, and b) the Empress ruled everything west of the Aryth Ocean, with the capabilities to conquer up to at least the spine of the world (had her armies arrived earlier, Rand wouldn't have been ready to stop her).

 

The Black Tower is a weapon to be aimed, Rand's words. It is not an institution like the Aes Sedai at all. It may become that, but it isn't now. The point was also made that the tower is weak now because the other channeler factions treat them as equals. Well they never bowed to them. There may have been a sense of ignorant respect from Wise Ones and Windfinders that was wiped away when they finally met, but as I said, Aes Sedai also assumed a lot about Aiel and Sea Folk channelers that was wrong, and they're stronger by shaking off their own ignorance.

 

Any changes to the White Tower's political position is going to be years off, and by then, after Rand leaves a gaping power vacuum, the White Tower could come out stronger than ever if they play the cards right (re: holding together Rand's alliances, welcoming Logain (we assume) and the other MCs as a counter-part).

 

Siuan was the most powerful person in the lands we knew of Tarabon,Andor, etc..every monarch in these lands respected and were "scared" of female Aes Sedai. The Windfinders were scared of Aes Sedai, so scared that they hid their chanellers. Eqwene does not have the same respect in these lands. Rulers of one third of these lands think the Aes Sedai are even below normal humans. The Aes Sedai cannot even prevent Seachan raids on their own tower. It has been pretty much proved that as a military force with the one power both the Ash'aman and the Damne easily outstrip them.

 

Even after the last battle the fact remains that just the presence of the Black Tower reduces Female Aes Sedai power by 50% of what it used to be.

And about time to.

[Kahsm]

 

Do you think the average person in seanchan controlled territory would spit on an Aes Sedai now? They would be just as fearful/suspicious/grudgingly-respectful as ever. You seem to have forgotten that a lot of the wetlanders didn't even believe Aes Sedai existed at all while Siuan Sanche was Amyrlin, they didn't believe in trollocs! You're mixing up our world perspective as readers with that of mid-to-lesser nobles and common folk who make up the vast majority of the world population.

 

You claim Siuan was the most powerful woman in the world, except a) we have no idea what goes on in Shara, and b) the Empress ruled everything west of the Aryth Ocean, with the capabilities to conquer up to at least the spine of the world (had her armies arrived earlier, Rand wouldn't have been ready to stop her).

 

The Black Tower is a weapon to be aimed, Rand's words. It is not an institution like the Aes Sedai at all. It may become that, but it isn't now. The point was also made that the tower is weak now because the other channeler factions treat them as equals. Well they never bowed to them. There may have been a sense of ignorant respect from Wise Ones and Windfinders that was wiped away when they finally met, but as I said, Aes Sedai also assumed a lot about Aiel and Sea Folk channelers that was wrong, and they're stronger by shaking off their own ignorance.

 

Any changes to the White Tower's political position is going to be years off, and by then, after Rand leaves a gaping power vacuum, the White Tower could come out stronger than ever if they play the cards right (re: holding together Rand's alliances, welcoming Logain (we assume) and the other MCs as a counter-part).

 

Siuan was the most powerful person in the lands we knew of Tarabon,Andor, etc..every monarch in these lands respected and were "scared" of female Aes Sedai. The Windfinders were scared of Aes Sedai, so scared that they hid their chanellers. Eqwene does not have the same respect in these lands. Rulers of one third of these lands think the Aes Sedai are even below normal humans. The Aes Sedai cannot even prevent Seachan raids on their own tower. It has been pretty much proved that as a military force with the one power both the Ash'aman and the Damne easily outstrip them.

 

Even after the last battle the fact remains that just the presence of the Black Tower reduces Female Aes Sedai power by 50% of what it used to be.

And about time to.

 

That's why Rand went to the BT and provoked Taim into going around and marshaling support he needs to show up to FOM. Oh wait...

[Manscher]

That is just an silly argument, Rand clearly states that he has no intention of going to the Black Tower until he knows more about the situation there. He knows it's not safe for him to just show up out of nowhere.

[XXX]

 

That's why Rand went to the BT and provoked Taim into going around and marshaling support he needs to show up to FOM. Oh wait...

 

Why would Rand need to manipulate the Asha'man most of them serve him already. He did not even need Egwene to marshal forces for him..he could have ordered Tear,Illian etc to send their armies not needed to beg and plead like Eqwene had to. What he needed was for Egwene to bring the tower with her as he needs Aes Sedai to help him in his plan. And he easily manipulated Egwene into doing what he wanted.

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that after the LB..the presence of the male channellers will mean that the power of the Female Aes Sedai is coming crashing down from where it used to be when they were the only ones who could safety channel.

[Kahsm]

 

That's why Rand went to the BT and provoked Taim into going around and marshaling support he needs to show up to FOM. Oh wait...

 

Why would Rand need to manipulate the Asha'man most of them serve him already. He did not even need Egwene to marshal forces for him..he could have ordered Tear,Illian etc to send their armies not needed to beg and plead like Eqwene had to. What he needed was for Egwene to bring the tower with her as he needs Aes Sedai to help him in his plan. And he easily manipulated Egwene into doing what he wanted.

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that after the LB..the presence of the male channellers will mean that the power of the Female Aes Sedai is coming crashing down from where it used to be when they were the only ones who could safety channel.

 

He didn't need to trick her into showing up, clearly he needed her to speak to others for whatever reasons we don't know yet. Assuming he went through some elaborate Aes Sedai plot instead of simply asking her to show up is ridiculous.

 

And Aes Sedai in the AoL when men could channel safely were powerless? Rand still seems to claim the title Aes Sedai, for all we know he'll kneel to Egwene after TG and that's how the men are dragged back into the fold.

[MasterAblar]

 

That's why Rand went to the BT and provoked Taim into going around and marshaling support he needs to show up to FOM. Oh wait...

 

Why would Rand need to manipulate the Asha'man most of them serve him already. He did not even need Egwene to marshal forces for him..he could have ordered Tear,Illian etc to send their armies not needed to beg and plead like Eqwene had to. What he needed was for Egwene to bring the tower with her as he needs Aes Sedai to help him in his plan. And he easily manipulated Egwene into doing what he wanted.

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that after the LB..the presence of the male channellers will mean that the power of the Female Aes Sedai is coming crashing down from where it used to be when they were the only ones who could safety channel.

 

He didn't need to trick her into showing up, clearly he needed her to speak to others for whatever reasons we don't know yet. Assuming he went through some elaborate Aes Sedai plot instead of simply asking her to show up is ridiculous.

 

And Aes Sedai in the AoL when men could channel safely were powerless? Rand still seems to claim the title Aes Sedai, for all we know he'll kneel to Egwene after TG and that's how the men are dragged back into the fold.

 

Bad idea. He's also ashaman, their leader in fact, so that would give the wrong image. Not to mention it's not really the same aes sedai institution.

[AshaShan]

 

Bad idea. He's also ashaman, their leader in fact, so that would give the wrong image. Not to mention it's not really the same aes sedai institution.

 

This. You don't fight 3000 years of ingrained misanthropy by submitting to the chief proponent of that viewpoint. Not to mention that it would be like the President of the US going back in time to pre-industrial France and swearing fealty to the Dauphin. Talk about your moral dissonance.

[XXX]

 

That's why Rand went to the BT and provoked Taim into going around and marshaling support he needs to show up to FOM. Oh wait...

 

Why would Rand need to manipulate the Asha'man most of them serve him already. He did not even need Egwene to marshal forces for him..he could have ordered Tear,Illian etc to send their armies not needed to beg and plead like Eqwene had to. What he needed was for Egwene to bring the tower with her as he needs Aes Sedai to help him in his plan. And he easily manipulated Egwene into doing what he wanted.

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that after the LB..the presence of the male channellers will mean that the power of the Female Aes Sedai is coming crashing down from where it used to be when they were the only ones who could safety channel.

 

He didn't need to trick her into showing up, clearly he needed her to speak to others for whatever reasons we don't know yet. Assuming he went through some elaborate Aes Sedai plot instead of simply asking her to show up is ridiculous.

 

And Aes Sedai in the AoL when men could channel safely were powerless? Rand still seems to claim the title Aes Sedai, for all we know he'll kneel to Egwene after TG and that's how the men are dragged back into the fold.

 

Aes Sedai in the AoL was a gender neutral body..not like the current Aes Sedai who are only females. The female Aes Sedai power is on the way down regardless of whether the men join the Aes Sedai or stay separate. That is the truth whatever happens unless the men lose the ability to channel safety again.

 

Why would Rand bow to Egwene..he far surpases her in all aspects of Aes Sedai knowledge. She is but a half trained child posing as an Aes Sedai compared to him and the rest of the forsaken.

 

BTW it is pretty clear in ToM that he smoothly manipulated the Amyrlin..kind of ironic as the art of manipulation is the only thing the present Aes Sedai are good for considering that their combat powers are pretty pathetic.

[Himiko]

Agree with the idea that Rand bowing to Egwene would be the wrong way to go about this. If men and women are to become equals after TG, then they should begin as equals from the start- the AS, or at the very least, Egwene, who represents the official viewpoint of AS, still see men bonding women as a travesty, still claim this as Rand's fault whilst denying that the sisters who kidnapped Rand under Elaida's orders are in any way her responsibility (not that she should be punished, personally, but I do think she should apologise on behalf on the Tower, as the representative of the tower to the world), still expect Rand to submit to the authority of the Tower, etc. There is still a good deal of sexism present. Whether you believe this is mostly down to Egwene's personal viewpoint, or mostly down to the Tower's official view, or both, an equal relationship cannot begin by one party bowing to another, when they are already seen as subordinate or inferior by the other party.

[Kahsm]

 

That's why Rand went to the BT and provoked Taim into going around and marshaling support he needs to show up to FOM. Oh wait...

 

Why would Rand need to manipulate the Asha'man most of them serve him already. He did not even need Egwene to marshal forces for him..he could have ordered Tear,Illian etc to send their armies not needed to beg and plead like Eqwene had to. What he needed was for Egwene to bring the tower with her as he needs Aes Sedai to help him in his plan. And he easily manipulated Egwene into doing what he wanted.

 

None of this has anything to do with the fact that after the LB..the presence of the male channellers will mean that the power of the Female Aes Sedai is coming crashing down from where it used to be when they were the only ones who could safety channel.

 

He didn't need to trick her into showing up, clearly he needed her to speak to others for whatever reasons we don't know yet. Assuming he went through some elaborate Aes Sedai plot instead of simply asking her to show up is ridiculous.

 

And Aes Sedai in the AoL when men could channel safely were powerless? Rand still seems to claim the title Aes Sedai, for all we know he'll kneel to Egwene after TG and that's how the men are dragged back into the fold.

 

Aes Sedai in the AoL was a gender neutral body..not like the current Aes Sedai who are only females. The female Aes Sedai power is on the way down regardless of whether the men join the Aes Sedai or stay separate. That is the truth whatever happens unless the men lose the ability to channel safety again.

 

Why would Rand bow to Egwene..he far surpases her in all aspects of Aes Sedai knowledge. She is but a half trained child posing as an Aes Sedai compared to him and the rest of the forsaken.

 

BTW it is pretty clear in ToM that he smoothly manipulated the Amyrlin..kind of ironic as the art of manipulation is the only thing the present Aes Sedai are good for considering that their combat powers are pretty pathetic.

 

After TG he's no longer the Dragon. He'd bow because she's the "First of Servents", and he's an Aes Sedai, to put it in AoL terms.

 

Edit: Just to be clear. I don't mean bowing specifically. But whatever deference he chooses to show that she is the First, and he belongs to the Aes Sedai. Obviously there will be negotiations to determine how the new Tower will look when the men join, but I don't see Egwene being stripped of stole and staff. Logain, as speculated, will also have a very high position, but I'm not sure he'll be equal with Egwene as some suspect.

[XXX]

That makes no sense ..why would the dragon bow to a Amyrlin when he had no input in how she was raised. For that matter why would the men accept female authority..especially when they are stronger in the OP? There is now an easy parallel to the real world where men are physically stronger. The Dragon is a title..LTT was the Dragon even before the bore was drilled.

 

The AoL Aes Sedai was gender neutral but even then the Dragon through all the ages who is always the strongest channeller is always a man.

 

Min saying that the guardians will balance the servants..that won't happen if the Men are in anyway inferior to the female Aes Sedai. As I said before the female Aes Sedai power has been in a freefall since the first book.

[Kahsm]

That makes no sense ..why would the dragon bow to a Amyrlin when he had no input in how she was raised. For that matter why would the men accept female authority..especially when they are stronger in the OP? There is now an easy parallel to the real world where men are physically stronger. The Dragon is a title..LTT was the Dragon even before the bore was drilled.

 

The AoL Aes Sedai was gender neutral but even then the Dragon through all the ages who is always the strongest channeller is always a man.

 

Stop talking about the Dragon. The Dragon dies at TG, Rand will not be the Dragon after TG. He will be an Aes Sedai and be beholden to the First of Servents if he still claims the 'Sedai' title. Egwene is lawfully raised Amyrlin. And deferring to Egwene is not "accepting female authority" at all. I never said _ALL_ women will stand above men or that a man can NEVER be the Amyrlin. But Egwene is the current one, and she will be responsible for negotiating with Rand and/or Logain how to integrate men into the Tower.

 

Either way, she's the leader of the Aes Sedai, and if you agree that the men will join the Aes Sedai, then she'll be leading them. Unless you believe Logain will dispose her in some way, or she'll die at TG, or maybe they'll do a "power sharing" thing where Logain is an equal ruler.

[Manscher]

How can you say that Rand will not be the dragon anymore? Unless he somehow gets a completely new soul and personality, he is still the Dragon. It is his soul that makes him The Dragon, not a title given by other people to him. It's not like the Ta'veren effect that can be taken away from him once his job is done, he will ALWAYS be the Dragon.

 

Besides, I don't think the Asha'man will join the Aes Sedai in that matter, they will be to different organizations working together, the guardians to balance the servants. Egwene will lead the servants, Logain the guardians. One of the main theme of the entire series is how the two genders balance each other out, how Saidin and Saidar balance each other out and work together. There is differences, but they work together. Non above the other.

[XXX]

That makes no sense ..why would the dragon bow to a Amyrlin when he had no input in how she was raised. For that matter why would the men accept female authority..especially when they are stronger in the OP? There is now an easy parallel to the real world where men are physically stronger. The Dragon is a title..LTT was the Dragon even before the bore was drilled.

 

The AoL Aes Sedai was gender neutral but even then the Dragon through all the ages who is always the strongest channeller is always a man.

 

Stop talking about the Dragon. The Dragon dies at TG, Rand will not be the Dragon after TG. He will be an Aes Sedai and be beholden to the First of Servents if he still claims the 'Sedai' title. Egwene is lawfully raised Amyrlin. And deferring to Egwene is not "accepting female authority" at all. I never said _ALL_ women will stand above men or that a man can NEVER be the Amyrlin. But Egwene is the current one, and she will be responsible for negotiating with Rand and/or Logain how to integrate men into the Tower.

 

Either way, she's the leader of the Aes Sedai, and if you agree that the men will join the Aes Sedai, then she'll be leading them. Unless you believe Logain will dispose her in some way, or she'll die at TG, or maybe they'll do a "power sharing" thing where Logain is an equal ruler.

 

LTT was called the dragon before the bore was drilled...what has the title to do with the LB other than the person called the Dragon would be the champion of the light in these 2 ages.

 

Egwene's Amyrlin ceremony itself has a ritual where she has to prove she is a woman to get the post...not sure how such a post can be reconciled with a tower consisting of men also. Anyway even if Egwene manages to remain the combined leader even then the power of the FEMALE Aes Sedai has fallen...because as you now said the men will inevitably lead the Aes Sedai at one point of time.