"Extracting" Rand from Tel'aran'rhiod

[Jon Paul]

I am looking for a bit of help here to understand why so many people seem to believe Rand will be ripped from TAR by Nynaeve or another. I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act. When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it (and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn). What are the possible ramifications of having the Dragon Soul essentially removed from where the Pattern demands he be? And all for the sentimentality of his happy ending with Min? And this doesn't even factor in what the Dragon would think of it. Not just Rand al'Thor.. but literally the Dragon with an infinite awareness of past lives, successes and failures?

[Zentari]

I am looking for a bit of help here to understand why so many people seem to believe Rand will be ripped from TAR by Nynaeve or another. I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act. When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it (and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn). What are the possible ramifications of having the Dragon Soul essentially removed from where the Pattern demands he be? And all for the sentimentality of his happy ending with Min? And this doesn't even factor in what the Dragon would think of it. Not just Rand al'Thor.. but literally the Dragon with an infinite awareness of past lives, successes and failures?

For the aftereffects we don't know, but if the alternative is a pattern torn to shreds , I doubt the Dragon would object much.

[Hyronimus]

True, true.

 

I can't see Brigitte surviving in her current form as it is, it's always been a mistake that should be fixed.

 

As for Rand, it could be he won't be dead, just mostly dead.

[sandoz12]

I am looking for a bit of help here to understand why so many people seem to believe Rand will be ripped from TAR by Nynaeve or another. I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act. When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it (and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn). What are the possible ramifications of having the Dragon Soul essentially removed from where the Pattern demands he be? And all for the sentimentality of his happy ending with Min? And this doesn't even factor in what the Dragon would think of it. Not just Rand al'Thor.. but literally the Dragon with an infinite awareness of past lives, successes and failures?

Whether or not you consider it to be an objectively evil effect and regardless of the implications of the act is there a lot of evidence, foreshadowing that suggests it will occur. Hopefully Terez doesn't mind me linking to her excellent article which sums it up Blood On The Rocks.

 

As to the ramifications - I really don't have a clue. But Nicola's foretelling suggests that he will end up with his harem at the end.

[LemonPastie]

I think Nynaeve will find him and try to rip him out, but he will talk her into not doing it and have another zen-Rand moment where we all will say "ooohhhh, so that is the metaphysics of the wheel" and the light side will then go and kick the rest of the shadow's butt without Rand, or maybe with Rand joining up with Perrin in TAR and doing some battle there. Personally, I would much rather that than have him ripped out

[WhiskyJack]

Much easier to just blow the horn of Valere.

[sleepinghour]

I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act. When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it (and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn).

It was an evil act because it was done with the intent of harming Birgitte, and Birgitte did not want to be ripped out. Min had a viewing of Birgitte which suggests Birgitte is in fact still bound to the Horn:

 

Besides, those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than one woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

I don't see ripping Rand from T'A'R (assuming he agrees to it) as any worse than Mat and Aviendha being resurrected in FoH after Rand balefired Rahvin. They aren't supposed to be alive either.

 

What are the possible ramifications of having the Dragon Soul essentially removed from where the Pattern demands he be? And all for the sentimentality of his happy ending with Min?

That might not actually be the reason why Rand is resurrected. Some think he will die too early, or needed to keep the surviving armies from embarking on a battle royale once they no longer have reason to play nice with each other. Nicola's Foretelling ("The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.") suggests as much.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Besides, those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than one woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

I don't see ripping Rand from T'A'R (assuming he agrees to it) as any worse than Mat and Aviendha being resurrected in FoH after Rand balefired Rahvin. They aren't supposed to be alive either.

 

 

 

What happens to his soul when he dies for second time?

[WhiskyJack]

I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act. When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it (and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn).

It was an evil act because it was done with the intent of harming Birgitte, and Birgitte did not want to be ripped out. Min had a viewing of Birgitte which suggests Birgitte is in fact still bound to the Horn:

 

 

Which one?

[sleepinghour]

What happens to his soul when he dies for second time?

My guess is that it will simply return to T'A'R.

 

Which one?

I already posted the quote (as did you in your first reply to me ). It's from Winter's Heart.

[Terez]

I am looking for a bit of help here to understand why so many people seem to believe Rand will be ripped from TAR by Nynaeve or another. I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act.

I agree, but along the same lines as what sleepinghour says, only in a Kantian way. From a utilitarian perspective, it gets more complex.

 

In other words, it was evil for Moghedien to do it to Birgitte, but it is not for Nynaeve to do it to Rand. Even from a utilitarian perspective, there are some important differences between Rand and Birgitte. For Birgitte, she had been dead for many years, and Gaidal had already been born. Every single life she ever remembered living, he was born first. Now, she's been ripped out, and though he had been spun out first, she has the appearance of a roughly 20-year-old woman (and that's on the young side), while Gaidal is a baby. Presumably she's going to age like normal since she can't channel, and so she's going to be much older than him by the time he comes of age. Presumably, it will work out anyway, since Min had viewings of it, but Birgitte doesn't know that yet, so she's been going a little over the edge with the grief that comes from worrying she will never find him, which she has never had to consciously do before. She's accustomed to remembering all of her past lives for several Turnings of the Wheel, but now she's forgetting everything, and she's worried she'll forget all about him.

 

For Rand, it's a little different. He appears to be a roughly 21-year-old guy, and when he dies and goes to Tel'aran'rhiod, he'll likely appear in that form because it is the most recent and most comfortable to him, but of course he'll probably get rid of the stump and the wounds. That's where the Perun legends come in. They'll likely need to figure out Birgitte before they attempt to resurrect Rand because they still, like the reader, see it as a horrible thing. That's where Min comes in. And in fact, that was likely the reason why Birgitte needed to be ripped out in the first place; all is according to the Wheel's plan. But from a literary perspective RJ had to make it counterintuitive, and the overexaggerated trauma of Birgitte's experience (along with Nynaeve's guilt) was necessary to lead us astray from thinking that it would ever be a good idea to do that to Rand. RJ did it so successfully that even when we read Min's viewing in Winter's Heart (4 books later), we continued to see it that way.

 

When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it

On the contrary, I believe their afterlife is in Tel'aran'rhiod precisely for this reason - so that they can interact with the real world while dead, if necessary. They generally abide by the precepts, but they have the free will to break them. This is what makes them dead, yet living at the same time (as Nicola's Foretelling suggests).

 

(and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn).

As has been shown by sleepinghour, we do. Min's viewings leave little room for doubt on that.

 

What are the possible ramifications of having the Dragon Soul essentially removed from where the Pattern demands he be?

This is exactly what will happen when Rand dies. The only hope of the world, not quite where the Pattern demands him to be.

 

And all for the sentimentality of his happy ending with Min?

This is one of the main reasons why I believe Rand will die before he's saved the world. The prophecies seem to make it clear enough that he will be resurrected, and it seems pointless to do so if he dies in the process of saving the world. He's no longer needed, then. But Nicola's Foretelling says that 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade', and Bair and Melaine saw a scale swinging first one way, and then the other. Clearly the future depends on his return at that point, and at that point he is already 'he who is dead, yet lives'. The Aelfinn said that in order to survive the Last Battle, Rand must die.

 

And this doesn't even factor in what the Dragon would think of it.

If he dies without saving the world, he can't object much to being brought back. He can choose to obey the precepts, but Nynaeve can find him with Need if he's stubborn. There has never been a greater need than this.

 

Not just Rand al'Thor.. but literally the Dragon with an infinite awareness of past lives, successes and failures?

He might just be expecting her.

 

I can't see Brigitte surviving in her current form as it is, it's always been a mistake that should be fixed.

Min's viewings indicate that she will stay like she is.

 

As for Rand, it could be he won't be dead, just mostly dead.

Four separate prophecies specifically say he will die. Count on it.

 

Much easier to just blow the horn of Valere.

I argued this for a few years because I didn't like the idea of Rand being resurrected. I wanted him to die and stay dead, because it seemed right to me. But the prophecies indicated that he would die before saving the day, so I figured he'd be called back by the Horn. Many people argued that would be lame, but my argument was basically: the Horn had to have been made for a specific purpose, so why not this? But in retrospect I tend to agree it's a bit on the lame side for him to save the world in immortal form. And while it would be cool to see Rand called by the Horn, and it might well happen, I think he will be resurrected either way. It may be that no one gets the idea to resurrect him until they blow the Horn, but it would be pretty lame for Rand to tell them how to do it like that. Better for them to figure it out, resurrect him before the Horn is blown, and then the Horn makes a parallel to the empty tomb when it's blown and Rand isn't there.

 

What happens to his soul when he dies for second time?

There's no reason to believe that he won't just go back to the afterlife like normal.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have similar thoughts as John Paul, but as mentioned, there is most probably a safe way of doing it.

 

I will be annoyed if they rip him out just like Moggy. With no thought or knowledge of the consequences.

 

Looking at what happened to Birgitte, we have only vague assurances that everything is fine. Mins viewings seem to indicate that all will be good, but really, who is going to go on one viewing when it could possibly screw up the Dragon's thread in the pattern.

 

I dont care if they do rip him out in a similar fashion. The action itself is not inherently evil, no action really is, its the intent of the one who does it. in this case, it would be to save the world. But there needs to be some explaination or assurance.

 

It would be the height of stupidity ripping him out (from the characters perspective, not ours) with so little information, and Birgitte suffering less than promising side effects.

[Himiko]

If this does happen, I can only see Nynaeve (or whoever else) doing it if Rand died before fulfilling his destiny and saving the world. As has been mentioned, it has been shown to be an evil act, but if the need was great and the world needed the Dragon Reborn, then yes, I think they would try and bring him back, and I believe he would come back willingly, if only to end the fight.

[WhiskyJack]

 

When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it

On the contrary, I believe their afterlife is in Tel'aran'rhiod precisely for this reason - so that they can interact with the real world while dead, if necessary. They generally abide by the precepts, but they have the free will to break them. This is what makes them dead, yet living at the same time (as Nicola's Foretelling suggests).

 

 

I always thought that Wheel kept these souls in TAR to protect them from Lord of Grave. The fact that humans can actually interact with TAR is I guess accidental. For Dreams/Wolfbrothers it comes naturally but everyone else is doing it unnaturally.

[Terez]

When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it

On the contrary, I believe their afterlife is in Tel'aran'rhiod precisely for this reason - so that they can interact with the real world while dead, if necessary. They generally abide by the precepts, but they have the free will to break them. This is what makes them dead, yet living at the same time (as Nicola's Foretelling suggests).

 

 

I always thought that Wheel kept these souls in TAR to protect them from Lord of Grave.

There is nothing to indicate that they are protected from him at death any more than anyone else is. His power is limited in other ways.

 

For Dreams/Wolfbrothers it comes naturally but everyone else is doing it unnaturally.

Also nothing to support the notion that human use of Tel'aran'rhiod is in any way 'unnatural'.

[Terez]

I have similar thoughts as John Paul, but as mentioned, there is most probably a safe way of doing it.

 

I will be annoyed if they rip him out just like Moggy. With no thought or knowledge of the consequences.

 

Looking at what happened to Birgitte, we have only vague assurances that everything is fine. Mins viewings seem to indicate that all will be good, but really, who is going to go on one viewing when it could possibly screw up the Dragon's thread in the pattern.

Min's viewings are absolute, and it's extremely clear from the viewing that Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel - Min saw more adventures than anyone could possibly have in one lifetime. So it's not as if they are going to do it without thinking of the consequences; I don't know why you framed your argument that way when that point has already been thoroughly addressed.

 

It would be the height of stupidity ripping him out (from the characters perspective, not ours) with so little information, and Birgitte suffering less than promising side effects.

Birgitte is suffering only from unnecessary grief, which will be more or less solved when Min tells her about the viewings. The memory loss is natural; if she were spun out like normal, she would have no past life memories at all.

[WhiskyJack]

When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it

On the contrary, I believe their afterlife is in Tel'aran'rhiod precisely for this reason - so that they can interact with the real world while dead, if necessary. They generally abide by the precepts, but they have the free will to break them. This is what makes them dead, yet living at the same time (as Nicola's Foretelling suggests).

 

 

I always thought that Wheel kept these souls in TAR to protect them from Lord of Grave.

There is nothing to indicate that they are protected from him at death any more than anyone else is. His power is limited in other ways.

 

For Dreams/Wolfbrothers it comes naturally but everyone else is doing it unnaturally.

Also nothing to support the notion that human use of Tel'aran'rhiod is in any way 'unnatural'.

 

1) If he could, he would have taken LTT's soul and using circle of 13 converted him to shadow. I am pretty sure he had countless opportunities before. Sole reason why DO was trying to "turn" Rand instead of trying to kill him.

2) Just like Wheel didn't intend people to drill a hole in DO's prison, it didn't expect people to build items that can allow them access to TAR.

[herid]

I am looking for a bit of help here to understand why so many people seem to believe Rand will be ripped from TAR by Nynaeve or another. I believe that what Moghedien done to Birgitte could be argued as being an objectively evil act.

why? As terez said, it's evil because moggy sent her to die. why is it objectively evil (if such a thing is even possible)?

 

When Heroes of the Horn return to TAR they're not meant to be ripped out of it (and we do not know what effect this has on the Hero's future status as a Hero of the Horn). What are the possible ramifications of having the Dragon Soul essentially removed from where the Pattern demands he be?

And all for the sentimentality of his happy ending with Min? And this doesn't even factor in what the Dragon would think of it. Not just Rand al'Thor.. but literally the Dragon with an infinite awareness of past lives, successes and failures?

those are good questions but it hardly makes the act itself evil.

 

True, true.

 

I can't see Brigitte surviving in her current form as it is, it's always been a mistake that should be fixed.

 

I suspect it might happen and Birgitte might die and be reborn normally and be slightly younger than Gaidal as she should be. She has even started wearing a sword which is supposed to be a bad omen for her.

 

I have similar thoughts as John Paul, but as mentioned, there is most probably a safe way of doing it.

 

I will be annoyed if they rip him out just like Moggy. With no thought or knowledge of the consequences.

 

Looking at what happened to Birgitte, we have only vague assurances that everything is fine. Mins viewings seem to indicate that all will be good, but really, who is going to go on one viewing when it could possibly screw up the Dragon's thread in the pattern.

 

that's hardly vague. Min's viewings are one of very few things in the books we can rely on absolutely. Min reads the pattern and she sees Birgitte still tied to the Wheel. so long as the pattern continues Birgitte will be fine.

 

One thing that occurred to me on a recent reread of FoH

is that Birgitte might play a role in finding Rand in TAR. Terez thinks it will be Nynaeve using need but Birgitte could be another option (or it could be a combination of both). When she finds Moggy and Nynaeve in TAR she apparently uses her old skills at finding people in TAR

 

“How did you get here?” Nynaeve asked. “I am grateful, you understand, but . . . how?”

 

Birgitte gave Moghedien a final stony stare, then opened her coat to fish in the neck of her blouse, pulling up the twisted stone ring on a leather thong. “Siuan woke up. Just for a moment, and not all the way. Long enough to grumble about you snatching this from her. When you didn’t wake right behind her, I knew something must be wrong, so I took the ring and the last of what you mixed for Siuan.”

 

“There was hardly any left. Only the dregs.”

 

“Enough to put me to sleep. It tastes horrible, by the way. After that, it was as easy as finding feather-dancers in Shiota. In some ways this is almost as if I were still—” Birgitte cut off with another glare for Moghedien.

-FoH, Ch 54

If she retains that skill she might also still be able to find other heroes of the Horn in TAR. Apparently, when they reside in TAR they can find each other easily.

[FarShainMael]

I'm playing with the idea that Birgitte will die soon and return to T'A'R. My reasons are:

 

We read in TFoH that Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, she is always reborn after him. This is not what we have now; Birgitte wasn't spun out normally, she was from T'A'R untimely ripped. We do not know what the consequences of this will be.

 

She.. was.. one of the heroes bound to the Wheel of Time, destined to be born again and again to make legends. She wasn't born this time, Elayne. She was ripped out of T'A'R as she stood. Is she still bound to the Wheel? Or has she been ripped away from that, too?

 

Further, her 'life' in the world of Randland is dependent on her bond to Elayne. It may just be that she needed Elayne's strength to counteract the weakening effects of being ripped out of T'A'R; or it may be something more fundamental; she is in some way sharing Elayne's life:

 

It isn't working. There is nothing wrong with her to Heal. She is as perfect as anyone can be. But she is dying.

 

And then Elayne bonds her.

 

Min's viewings of Birgitte in WH12 certainly indicate that the Wheel is not yet finished with her. But I have a suspicion that, in order for her to be reborn 'properly', she has to die - or at least be unlinked from Elayne. I further have a suspicion that this may happen when Elayne gives birth (to Calian and Shivan?).

 

As to when that will happen, it may be sooner than we think. Yes Elayne is nowhere near the end of her pregnancy atm - but there was that 'odd indigestion' she felt after watching Mat test the cannons (ToM29), which just might be a warning of a premature labour.

[Terez]

1) If he could, he would have taken LTT's soul and using circle of 13 converted him to shadow.

It has happened before, whether by 13-13 or some other method.

 

2) Just like Wheel didn't intend people to drill a hole in DO's prison, it didn't expect people to build items that can allow them access to TAR.

People can access Tel'aran'rhiod without a ter'angreal.

[Terez]

I'm playing with the idea that Birgitte will die soon and return to T'A'R.

Min's viewing shows her connected to a man sometimes older, sometimes much younger. This means that she's not going back to Tel'aran'rhiod.

[herid]

I'm playing with the idea that Birgitte will die soon and return to T'A'R.

Min's viewing shows her connected to a man sometimes older, sometimes much younger. This means that she's not going back to Tel'aran'rhiod.

This just shows Birgitte's future lives. why should it mean that she is not going back to TAR?

[FarShainMael]

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

There's room for doubt. Is Min referring to Birgitte's current apparent age, or to her age relative to Gaidal in their rebirths?

 

@herid: because we are told that Gaidal is always reborn before Birgitte, and will therefore always be older than she is. But if she's not going back to T'A'R, is their linkage destroyed?

[herid]

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

There's room for doubt. Is Min referring to Birgitte's current apparent age, or to her age relative to Gaidal in their rebirths?

 

@herid: because we are told that Gaidal is always reborn before Birgitte, and will therefore always be older than she is. But if she's not going back to T'A'R, is their linkage destroyed?

what I was thinking is that this particular age relation will just be broken from now on because of Birgitte's unexpected birth. but she could still die in aMoL and be reborn normally soon after. Min's viewing does show that Birgitte and Gaidal will still be linked in their future lives so i see no contradiction in that scenario.

[FarShainMael]

That's the point I was making, yes.