"Extracting" Rand from Tel'aran'rhiod

[herid]

That's the point I was making, yes.

oh, No! I might be agreeing with one of your predictions! This is not right. I think you had a near perfect record of making predictions that I disagreed with. Hastily reassessing my position on this one...

[WhiskyJack]

Nevermind. Too much guess work.

[Jon Paul]

I tip my hat to Terez. Though I am still not too convinced but I can admit that that may just be down to my own personal feelings. I don't have an issue with Rand being resurrected.. I just don't really like the idea of TAR being used for it. Not even for my "objectively evil" thing etc. I just don't like the feel of it. But that's just me.

 

why? As terez said, it's evil because moggy sent her to die. why is it objectively evil (if such a thing is even possible)?

 

The way I look at it is that good and evil in the world of the WOT is based on order and disorder. Essentially morality comes down to whether it flows with the Wheel or disrupts the wheel. The Dark One is "evil" because he's naturally chaotic which is anathema to the order of the wheel. If the Wheel sends the Dragon Soul to chill in TAR then it has done so for a reason and I believe that an invasive interference with that could be argued to be objectively "evil" because it's inherently disordered.

 

The above is very poorly articulated sorry. Best I can manage . Basically the same reason why Balefire is evil.. it screws about with the Pattern.

[mb]

Birgitte sees to have remained a Hero since she was still able to detect Nynaeve & Moghedien near the end of the book. And Min's Viewings of her (Winter's Heart) seem to indicate Birgitte still linked with Gaidal's soul.

 

If Rand's soul gets ripped out after his death, I suspect the body would be different. Though like Birgitte, I guess the soul would still be a Hero.

 

As for it happening with Rand, I am not so sure since neither author confirmed it.

[herid]

I tip my hat to Terez. Though I am still not too convinced but I can admit that that may just be down to my own personal feelings. I don't have an issue with Rand being resurrected.. I just don't really like the idea of TAR being used for it. Not even for my "objectively evil" thing etc. I just don't like the feel of it. But that's just me.

how would you want to see it done then? It has to happen in some way that does not violate the existing laws of the WOT universe. I know that I would absolutely hate it if Rand is resurrected by some kind of deus ex machina trick that can not be adequately explained. Anything but that, please!

So far the idea with Rand being pushed out of TAR is the only one I've seen that is satisfactory in that regard. I would certainly be interested to see if someone can come up with another.

Sorry, I forgot the bodyswap theory but that one is really creepy and you'll likely find it even less palatable than terez's theory of Nyn pushing Rand out of TAR.

 

why? As terez said, it's evil because moggy sent her to die. why is it objectively evil (if such a thing is even possible)?

 

The way I look at it is that good and evil in the world of the WOT is based on order and disorder. Essentially morality comes down to whether it flows with the Wheel or disrupts the wheel. The Dark One is "evil" because he's naturally chaotic which is anathema to the order of the wheel. If the Wheel sends the Dragon Soul to chill in TAR then it has done so for a reason and I believe that an invasive interference with that could be argued to be objectively "evil" because it's inherently disordered.

 

The above is very poorly articulated sorry. Best I can manage . Basically the same reason why Balefire is evil.. it screws about with the Pattern.

You explained it very well, actually. But I'm not sure if going against the Wheel in any way qualifies an act as evil even in the world of WoT. For example, Birgitte was ripped out TAR against the will of the Pattern and the Wheel didn't know what to do with her. So you might argue that Elayne saving her was wrong as it went against the will of the Pattern.

Few if any moral norms are absolute even in works of fiction such as WoT. And they are not meant to be, really. We are reminded a number of times that Whitecloaks idea of everything being either black or white is wrong and the choices are often more complex. sometimes people have to do what they think is right.

Bringing Rand back to life in order to stop the destruction of the Wheel itself sounds like a very worthy cause even if it does upset the natural balance of things.

[FarShainMael]

That's the point I was making, yes.

oh, No! I might be agreeing with one of your predictions! This is not right. I think you had a near perfect record of making predictions that I disagreed with. Hastily reassessing my position on this one...

 

 

I know that I would absolutely hate it if Rand is resurrected by some kind of deus ex machina trick that can not be adequately explained. Anything but that, please!

 

I still think Rand has already been 'resurrected':

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59003-betrayed-w-a-kiss/page__st__40__p__1823061

 

(What a useful tip, thanks Mystica.)

[sandoz12]

I tip my hat to Terez. Though I am still not too convinced but I can admit that that may just be down to my own personal feelings. I don't have an issue with Rand being resurrected.. I just don't really like the idea of TAR being used for it. Not even for my "objectively evil" thing etc. I just don't like the feel of it. But that's just me.

 

why? As terez said, it's evil because moggy sent her to die. why is it objectively evil (if such a thing is even possible)?

 

The way I look at it is that good and evil in the world of the WOT is based on order and disorder. Essentially morality comes down to whether it flows with the Wheel or disrupts the wheel. The Dark One is "evil" because he's naturally chaotic which is anathema to the order of the wheel. If the Wheel sends the Dragon Soul to chill in TAR then it has done so for a reason and I believe that an invasive interference with that could be argued to be objectively "evil" because it's inherently disordered.

 

The above is very poorly articulated sorry. Best I can manage . Basically the same reason why Balefire is evil.. it screws about with the Pattern.

 

But by this logic isn't Rand trying to destroy the dark one also 'evil' because with no dark one will the wheel still turn the same? I think the Dark One has been a counter-balance to the creator and if Rand were to destroy then the pattern of the wheel will change. Not saying that this is a bad thing just that if balance of the wheel is the primary 'good' quality then Rand should be simply trying to re-imprison the Dark One in order to preserve the balance of the wheel.

[Terez]

Yeah, like I said before, this particular problem of Rand's premature death is probably why the Wheel needed Birgitte ripped out. Everything that happens is according to the Wheel's plan, so why assume that this is inherently 'chaotic'? There are some pretty severe limitations on the method of resurrection, not least that it's limited to a small pool of people who follow the precepts usually. And it's not as if everyone knows how to do it, and it's not as if Nynaeve is going to tell everyone.

[sandoz12]

That's the point I was making, yes.

oh, No! I might be agreeing with one of your predictions! This is not right. I think you had a near perfect record of making predictions that I disagreed with. Hastily reassessing my position on this one...

 

 

I know that I would absolutely hate it if Rand is resurrected by some kind of deus ex machina trick that can not be adequately explained. Anything but that, please!

 

I still think Rand has already been 'resurrected':

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59003-betrayed-w-a-kiss/page__st__40__p__1823061

 

(What a useful tip, thanks Mystica.)

 

So you think then that his inevitable death will be final? If so, how does this tie in with Nicola's foretelling. If not, do you believe that he will be resurrected twice?

[WhiskyJack]

Yeah, like I said before, this particular problem of Rand's premature death is probably why the Wheel needed Birgitte ripped out. Everything that happens is according to the Wheel's plan, so why assume that this is inherently 'chaotic'? There are some pretty severe limitations on the method of resurrection, not least that it's limited to a small pool of people who follow the precepts usually. And it's not as if everyone knows how to do it, and it's not as if Nynaeve is going to tell everyone.

 

 

Because it doesn't. That premise can lead us to believe that it was Wheel that lead Lanfear to create a bore in DO's prison and brought doom and destruction to humanity. Wheel has an ability to take care of unforeseen events and that's the premise of whole Dragon story.

[FarShainMael]

That's the point I was making, yes.

oh, No! I might be agreeing with one of your predictions! This is not right. I think you had a near perfect record of making predictions that I disagreed with. Hastily reassessing my position on this one...

 

 

I know that I would absolutely hate it if Rand is resurrected by some kind of deus ex machina trick that can not be adequately explained. Anything but that, please!

 

I still think Rand has already been 'resurrected':

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59003-betrayed-w-a-kiss/page__st__40__p__1823061

 

(What a useful tip, thanks Mystica.)

 

So you think then that his inevitable death will be final? If so, how does this tie in with Nicola's foretelling. If not, do you believe that he will be resurrected twice?

 

'Twice to live and twice to die'...

 

No, I think he'll end up in T'A'R and stay there. Someone (I forget exactly who) has commented that the phrase 'dead yet lives' as used in Nicola's foretelling is an apt description of the HotH in T'A'R.

[WhiskyJack]

Blood and gore is better. Off with his head.

 

 

Can "twice to live and twice to die" not include LTT once?

[sandoz12]

That's the point I was making, yes.

oh, No! I might be agreeing with one of your predictions! This is not right. I think you had a near perfect record of making predictions that I disagreed with. Hastily reassessing my position on this one...

 

 

I know that I would absolutely hate it if Rand is resurrected by some kind of deus ex machina trick that can not be adequately explained. Anything but that, please!

 

I still think Rand has already been 'resurrected':

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59003-betrayed-w-a-kiss/page__st__40__p__1823061

 

(What a useful tip, thanks Mystica.)

 

So you think then that his inevitable death will be final? If so, how does this tie in with Nicola's foretelling. If not, do you believe that he will be resurrected twice?

 

'Twice to live and twice to die'...

 

No, I think he'll end up in T'A'R and stay there. Someone (I forget exactly who) has commented that the phrase 'dead yet lives' as used in Nicola's foretelling is an apt description of the HotH in T'A'R.

Fair enough. I don't agree myself but I can see where you are coming from.

[Terez]

Yeah, like I said before, this particular problem of Rand's premature death is probably why the Wheel needed Birgitte ripped out. Everything that happens is according to the Wheel's plan, so why assume that this is inherently 'chaotic'? There are some pretty severe limitations on the method of resurrection, not least that it's limited to a small pool of people who follow the precepts usually. And it's not as if everyone knows how to do it, and it's not as if Nynaeve is going to tell everyone.

Because it doesn't. That premise can lead us to believe that it was Wheel that lead Lanfear to create a bore in DO's prison and brought doom and destruction to humanity. Wheel has an ability to take care of unforeseen events and that's the premise of whole Dragon story.

Rather, the premise is that all events are foreseen, and the Wheel is like a giant supercomputer that applies pressures in certain places of the Pattern so as to bring about the desirable outcome (which is, in general, the continued existence of the Pattern). It is also designed to allow a balance of conflict within those parameters, which is the purpose of the Dark One. So yes, Lanfear was part of the plan.

[WhiskyJack]

Yeah, like I said before, this particular problem of Rand's premature death is probably why the Wheel needed Birgitte ripped out. Everything that happens is according to the Wheel's plan, so why assume that this is inherently 'chaotic'? There are some pretty severe limitations on the method of resurrection, not least that it's limited to a small pool of people who follow the precepts usually. And it's not as if everyone knows how to do it, and it's not as if Nynaeve is going to tell everyone.

Because it doesn't. That premise can lead us to believe that it was Wheel that lead Lanfear to create a bore in DO's prison and brought doom and destruction to humanity. Wheel has an ability to take care of unforeseen events and that's the premise of whole Dragon story.

Rather, the premise is that all events are foreseen, and the Wheel is like a giant supercomputer that applies pressures in certain places of the Pattern so as to bring about the desirable outcome (which is, in general, the continued existence of the Pattern). It is also designed to allow a balance of conflict within those parameters, which is the purpose of the Dark One. So yes, Lanfear was part of the plan.

 

You think light's victory is assured(or not) since Wheel knows the future?

[FarShainMael]

Blood and gore is better. Off with his head.

 

 

Can "twice to live and twice to die" not include LTT once?

 

Hmm. Tricky. I'd say not, but I'd have to think on't.

 

EDITED: No it doesn't I've just realised! The complete quote is:

 

'Twice and twice shall he be marked,

Twice to live and twice to die.'

 

Rand was marked twice with herons on his palms, and twice with dragons on his arms. LTT had no marks at all that we are told about.

[WhiskyJack]

Blood and gore is better. Off with his head.

 

 

Can "twice to live and twice to die" not include LTT once?

 

Hmm. Tricky. I'd say not, but I'd have to think on't.

 

EDITED: No it doesn't I've just realised! The complete quote is:

 

'Twice and twice shall he be marked,

Twice to live and twice to die.'

 

Rand was marked twice with herons on his palms, and twice with dragons on his arms. LTT had no marks at all that we are told about.

 

It was just a thought. Rand (current one) atleast is not just Rand. LTT was just LTT.

[Terez]

You think light's victory is assured(or not) since Wheel knows the future?

The Wheel is designed to assure its own continued existence. The fact that the Wheel has supposedly been turning forever despite many opportunities for the Dark One to destroy it seems to speak in favor of that victory being assured. People have free will but the Wheel takes all that into account.

[Terez]

By a totally random coincidence, I ran across me arguing that Rand would seal the Bore in immortal form. (As I mentioned before, that's what I believed pre-TGS.)

[Jon Paul]

Is it not a possible interpretation that maybe the prophecies referring to Rand living and dying are a reference to Rand's whole life.. including the four plus centuries of life as Lews Therin? Rand has already lived once and died once. He had to die to live again etc. In which case maybe Rand wont die at all in AMOL (but possibly be removed from the picture for a while).

[Terez]

Is it not a possible interpretation that maybe the prophecies referring to Rand living and dying are a reference to Rand's whole life.. including the four plus centuries of life as Lews Therin?

Based on context, no. For example, Min only sees the future, and she says Alivia will help Rand die. Also, there's the boat to contend with, and the fact that the Aelfinn said that Rand must die in order to survive the Last Battle.

 

By the way, the boat Foretelling is one of the biggest clues for Tel'aran'rhiod as the means of resurrection, since his women will have to bond him again to save him. But it's far from the only clue. I hope you followed the link Herid gave earlier; there is some important stuff on that page.

[Southpaw89]

hey Terez, I've read your theories page on the whole death scenario for Rand but I can't remember... I know you believe (as do I) that Rand will die then be ressurected but do you think he'll be killed a second time then after sealing the Bore?

[Jon Paul]

"Extracting" Rand from TAR would also facilitate an easy-way to seal the bore. If it's like Bri' then he should remember hundreds of his past lives and by extension how he sealed the Bore. Seems a little too easy to me though.

[Terez]

hey Terez, I've read your theories page on the whole death scenario for Rand but I can't remember... I know you believe (as do I) that Rand will die then be ressurected but do you think he'll be killed a second time then after sealing the Bore?

Probably not. I think he'll most likely go into hiding; it would explain a number of things.

 

"Extracting" Rand from TAR would also facilitate an easy-way to seal the bore. If it's like Bri' then he should remember hundreds of his past lives and by extension how he sealed the Bore. Seems a little too easy to me though.

I doubt it will happen quite like that. Birgitte's memories began fading immediately after she was ripped out, and even early on she could only remember back an Age or so - certainly not a full Turning.

[Jon Paul]

I doubt it will happen quite like that. Birgitte's memories began fading immediately after she was ripped out, and even early on she could only remember back an Age or so - certainly not a full Turning.

 

Hmm fair point. Well it will be a shock when he finds out how many false Dragons he has been over the years !