Forsaken Names

[algspkr]

I was wondering if anyone had a full list of the meanings of the forsakens' names?

Cyndane - Last Chance

Garrs - named after dueling daggers

Ishameal - Betrayer of Hope

Mohgedean - Spider

Moridin - Death

Lanfear - Daughter of the Night

Sammeal - Destroyer? of Hope

Semirage - Lady of Pain?

 

I think those are all the ones I know.

[Luckers]

You are right about Sammael, and i expect Semirhage too. The way Rand phrases that title in his head implies it.

 

I dont think we can really guess the others. I suspect it ties in to their natures. Mesanna likely has something to do with being a teacher, or a researcher. Balthamel with either being a leecher, or being a lawyer... maybe has something to do with shady morals. Aginor likely has something to do with being a mad scientist. Rhavin? the Age of Legends version of a Playa maybe? Asmodean with music or being a musician. Graendal likely has something to do with mindgames, or being a whore or other sexually derived expression. Be'lal... the netweaver? Or something similar.

 

Likely since these names were given by the light they will either be fearful or derogatory.

[n00l3y]

True, but I do not believe that all the names were created by the good guys. Aran'gar, Osan'gar and Moridin were probably given by the DO, and the others may have renamed themselves as a mark of their "reform". But anyways, I think your list covers all that I know of.

[Luckers]

The reborn ones have all been named by the Dark One, with the possible exception of Cyndane. But the others were all named by the Light, except for Lanfear who is specifically noted as the one exception.

[Trib4l]

I'm pretty sure that 'Last Chance' was a name given by the DO.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I know that in ancient hebrew the world "Belial" means "worthless." I find the similarity of this word to the name Be'lal to be amusing b/c as far as contributing to the overall plot of WOT Be'lal was just that. I sometimes wonder if his name is a subtle joke on the part of Robert Jordan considering his small role in the overall story.

[Luckers]

As I said, the reborn ones were named by the Dark One. Cyndane means Last Chance, and it was given as a warning. Lanfear on the other hand was a name Mierin chose for herself, meaning daughter of night. And she was the only Forsaken to choose her own name.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, was it Semi, or Graendal who was originally a 'pure' person, if that makes any sense.. Its in the Big white book... Escentially one of the female forsaken, I think it was Graednal was about as pure as you could get.. no sex, no drugs, no rock and roll... No swearing, hell she'd probably be of the White Ajah...

Then when she became a forsaken, she decided to be the exact opposite of her nature. Instead of being a 'nun' she became became lustfull, Full of Power. Greed, Ect....

 

Also, if you notice, the Name Graendal its self, came from that epic story called Balewulf. Graendal, being a creature, The name of the creature is very speicific, I can't remember what type of creature but its not a zombie, but it is Undead, and far more powerfull. In Dungeons and Dragons, I believe its one of the few undead beings Necromancers can Countrol... I not a ghoul, but It starts with a G, I belive... Anyways the way they said it was that the creature its self came from the twisted creature that became of... Well the one son of adam and eves who killed the other... just read balewulf! Thats where I think RJ got the meaning from...

The son was 'pure' like graendal orginally was, but became a twisted shadow of its self... After, escentially 'selling its self to the devil' or the darkone in this case.

 

The first book, the eye of the world was meant to be fairly, tolkienish. Tolkien himself, drew from balewulf. And RJ said that he draws his 'sources' from several different myths/legends, stories, religions. ect.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um ... sorry, but I can't see ANY parallels between Grendel from Beowulf and Graendal ... while Jordan has, by his own admission, drawn heavily on mythology, I think the similarity here is pure coincidence. Grendel (referred to as male) was a huge ogre-like creature that lived at the bottom of a lake, and raided Hrothgar's hall at night. Beowulf shows up from a neighboring area, and offs Grendel fairly quickly. The real fight is with Grendel's unnamed mother, later in the myth/story.

 

I don't really see any parallels there with a philosophical ascetic psychiatrist turned hedonistic sycophant of the greatest evil in the world ...

[Luckers]

Agreed.

[SinisterDeath]

Hmmm, well theres two ideas as to what Grendel in beowulf looked like.. He's either described as a Giant Troll, or as a more human sized creature. Afterall, inorder for Beowulf to truelly 'wrestle' with Grendel, he would also need to be a giant right?

From my understanding Grendel was the decedent of 'Cain' Whom had the 'mark of cain'. Which is believed to be why Grendel is such a hidous monster.

 

As for any connection between Grendel and Graendal. It may be just as simple as her neame. Or there could be an underlying reason as to why she calls her self Grendel. Let say the Age of Legends was just after 'our' age. And lets say beowulf existed in the AoL...Whos to say she didn't pick her 'forsaken name' from beowulf. Grendel, being the monster who came in the middle of the night and ate yer babies.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Forsaken's names, as a rule, have been descriptive in the Old Tongue of the person or their actions. "Betrayer of Hope", "Daughter of the Night", etc. And only Lanfear is said to have picked her own name. So Graendal would not have picked her own name. And since nothing of Grendel in Beowulf legend seems to correspond to either Kamarile Maradim Nindar or her later persona as a "Chosen" it seems much more coincidental than anything else ...

 

It would be like trying to draw a similarity between Mat Cauthon and Matthew of the New Testament. There is none. It is just a coincidence.

[SinisterDeath]

Well to be fair, mats name is Matrim Cauthon, Not Matthew. :P

 

And we already know that mat has other similarities with people whom don't really share any names with him. Odin being one of them.

 

Anyways, do you really believe Grendaels name is just a coincidence between that of Grendel and Beowulf? I doubt RJ would just pick a name for one of the forsaken that is so very very close to Grendel just so some poor shmuck would draw the conclusion..

 

Ishmale is a somewhat biblican name.

Asmoedeon is also a somewhat biblical name.

Be'lal is also another one..

Sammeal.

A few are the same way. Where as others, have absolutely nothing to do with 'biblical names' but other completely different myths/legends/religions.

What other Defintiion for Grendael do you have? Whats her name mean?

I still hold that Graendel got her name via jordan from the story of Beowulf.

the monster Grendel, may not be much in common with Graendal. But look at what the creature is.

The Creature Grendel, is the decendent of a human named Cain, who was Cursed & marked. "The curse and mark of cain". Escentially no one was supposed to kill him, and supposedly he couldn't farm or anything...

Grendel is supposed to be his decendent. A twisted and grotesque version of what a human ONCE was.

See the parrallel?

Graendal is a Twisted and Grotesque version of what she once was. Not physically but.. Mentally? Emotionally. Everything about her is the exact opposite of what it used to be.

Unless ye got a better meaning for Grendels name which we don't know yet, I still hold that its more then just coincidence.

Rhavin sounds alot like Raven, and similar spelling. Ravens have been an 'omen' like figure. Evil or good... Though Trickster does run rampent with it..

 

But then again i'll be told 'thats just coincidence'. I'm sure when it comes to RJ things like that are far more then just coincidence.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Creature Grendel, is the decendent of a human named Cain, who was Cursed & marked. "The curse and mark of cain". Escentially no one was supposed to kill him, and supposedly he couldn't farm or anything...

 

That is a later Christian amendment to an originally norse myth/story. It is not really part of the oldest versions of the story. In the oldest sources, Grendel is completely non-human.

 

Grendel is supposed to be his decendent. A twisted and grotesque version of what a human ONCE was.

See the parrallel?

 

Given what I said above ... no, not really ...

 

Unless ye got a better meaning for Grendels name which we don't know yet, I still hold that its more then just coincidence.

 

I don't have another one, but just because I don't know what it means doesn't mean that this idea is correct.

 

Rhavin sounds alot like Raven, and similar spelling. Ravens have been an 'omen' like figure. Evil or good... Though Trickster does run rampent with it..

 

But then again i'll be told 'thats just coincidence'. I'm sure when it comes to RJ things like that are far more then just coincidence.

 

Actually, what you just did right there is a perfect example of what I'm about to say. If you are looking for parallels, trying to find something to make a connection, then you will find something. Your mind will make a connection, even if there isn't one really suggested by the text, because you want to find one. I'll admit the first time I read the name Graendal, I thought of Grendel, because the sound is similar and I was already familiar with the other story. But in looking at the text, I find no reason do draw a link between them.

 

Still, this seems like a question he would answer in the Blog. "Did Graendal's name come from Grendel in the myth?" Knowing that would have virtually no impact on the storyline, so I bet he would answer it.

[SinisterDeath]

Unless of course he decides to add that meaning in book 12. :P

 

I just find it far to coincidental to dismiss as just your average run of the mill Trying to finding a parrallel where they don't exist.

 

Its like people saying Rand = Jesus. No, he's not anything like the guy. The only thing they have in common is they are both Mesiah like figures. Thats it.

 

Givin the other forsaken names, the ones we know, and the ones that are blatantly from other texts. Asmodeon, Ishmale, Sammeal, ect. Its just unlikely that graendal has aboslutely no connection with Grendel. Not that I'm sayin Rands gonna Tear of Graendals Arms or anything, but more or less just the idea of what they are, and what they were..

Matrim Cauthon and Odin have a few parrallels. After that they end... I guess i'll probably have to wait till RJ starts postin on his blog again and ask if that is infact where Graendal got her name. If not what her name means in the books, but as to Why RJ picked that name for her.

 

As for any misunderstandings of beowulf, blame it on outdated english books. :P

Last I checked the only surviving texts of beowulf were orginally copied down by christian monks, so they obviously added in there own bias into the story, where it was then again copied by another guy just before those were destroyed in a fire right?

The version I had to endure was the 'christian adaptation of the beowulf story' Calling Grendel a descendent of Cain, where as possibly the orginal Beowulf, Grendel was just a Man Eating Ugly Troll Giant.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Unless of course he decides to add that meaning in book 12.

 

If that happens .... then I'll happily change my tune. Graendal opening an inn at the bottom of a lake and transforming into a half-ogre would be an ... interesting ... way to spike A Memory of Light.

[Wise One]

Erm, the Rand-Jesus parallels are quite pronounced in places. While as a person, he isn't very similar, a lot of the imagery is the same. Taking, for example, a spear wound to the side, marks on the palms (similar to nail marks), etc, it is quite easy to spot the parallels.

[SinisterDeath]

The parrallels are nothing more then the average mesiac refrence...

 

Frodo, had a Sword to the belly. Does that make him Jesus? No, the only parrallel between Jesus, Frodo, Rand, Whomever is that they are 'messiahs', and just sometimes those messiahs go through 'hard times'.

The other guy I was trying to think of was Dune. You know what happend to him, He went blind. Yet he could still see.

So, that guy -> Rand -> Neo..

Hell theres probably like 40 different religions with similar type stories..

 

*Also, rand had a staff through the side, not a spear. He didn't get his hands pierced by a nail, he got branded, via a burn. Jesus's death toke place over several days.

Rands 'suffering' is through Years.

Escentially the only parrallel is the 'suffering'. Other then that the two men are completely different.

I think rands far closer to the Dune Messiah then the others. Both are Warriors. Both have gained as much as they have lost.

Both quite simply, got adopted by desert living people, and were there messiah like figure. *only rands the 'messiah' of 4+ cultures..* Infact, he's started to adopt the aiels culture, simliar to whats his face from dune..

You know, that would almost be closer to 'mossis' wouldn't it? :P Except I don't think he was much of a warrior, nor a general.... *

[chuckievi]

who is mossis?

[SinisterDeath]

He's the guy who parted the Turnip Soup, and turned sand into glass, and sold it to the persians as platinum. :P

[chuckievi]

um... do you mean MOSES? If so it would seriously help your theories to spell some things correctly so we have a general idea what you are trying to convey.

[DemandredFO]

Not to defend Be'lal or anything but his alter-ego along with Lews Therin restarted the art of sword-fighting and were the first two blademasters. I would also suspect Demandred also Betrayer or Destroyer of something cuz didn't he betray the gates of Paraan Disen and was a great General. This may be nitpicking but by the translation on the Horn of Valere doesn't Moridin mean Grave? Is this correct or in this context does it mean Death?

[Luckers]

I'm fairly certain Sinister was being funny.

 

Another funny fact, Moses is by and large an amalgamation of the epic of gilgamesh and Babylonian Marduk Law mythos.

 

A third. Those links to Jesus are present, and in some cases much stronger, in a thousand faiths. The wounding of the messiah is a common theme. Sorry.

 

As for the Moridin Grave/Death thing. Words are not literal in translation, you wont simply find one word that means the same thing in the other language. Moridin could mean both death, grave, after-life, murder and half a hundred things.

[cannon]

I would also suspect Demandred also Betrayer or Destroyer of something cuz didn't he betray the gates of Paraan Disen and was a great General.

 

Actually, I doubt that Demandred is going to be "Betrayer of" anything. When you look at it from a linguistics perspective, there are a couple of clues.

 

First off, Ishamael and Sammael have the same ending. This suggests that "Ishamael" is a compound word (in a sense) in the old tongue, and "mael" is its own word.

 

Therefore Sammael probably means "Betrayer of" something, OR something of "Hope".

 

It also means that none of the other forsaken names besides Sammael have either of those words in their literal translation.

 

Similarly, I would venture to guess that "Lanfear" is a compound word and that "Lan" and "fear" are the roots. However, which one means which would require closer inspection of our other Old Tongue translations to try to determine grammatical structure.

 

Lastly, Moghedien was the name of a type of spider from the age of legends. It does not translate to "spider".

[RobertAlexWillis]

The root "mael" in the Old Tongue has to be the "Hope" part.

 

Ishamael: "Betrayer of Hope"

 

Sammael: "Destroyer of Hope"

 

The "mael" in common corresponds to the "of hope" in common.

 

That means that "ish" is the root for "Betrayer", at least in this grammatical form. There is no root or extension of a similar form in any of the other names, so it is unlikely that any of the other Forsaken are named as "betrayer" of something.

 

 

While the next part is HIGHLY speculative, the "Sem" in Semirhage is similar enough to Sammael's "Sam" both in position and word sound, that it could indicate a similar "Destroyer" connotation. "Destroyer of Wills" or "Destroyer of Flesh" would certainly fit, although it is, again, pure speculation.

 

The "amel" in Balthamel seems similar to the "mael" in the other two, but the inversion of the vowel-consonant order indicates a more likely departure in meaning, compared to the "sam"/"sem" variation.