Rand & his former lives & rambling

[Guest jfroebe]

Reading though the other message threads, I find it interesting that most people seem to think that Rand remembers his and LTT's memories. What about the memories of earlier lives? When he was on Dragonmount, he remembered all of them going so far back to be analogous with infinity. Now, he remembers LTT's memories most clearly (other than his own) because it happened relatively recently. The battle scene where he wipes out thousands of trollocs, etc in a matter of an hour or two makes me believe he remembers a lot more of his earlier lives (especially OP weaves) than he lets on.

 

His messianic holy man mental state in the last book is unlikely the culmination of LTT & Rand alone but of all of the Dragon's lives.. Rand right now is the uber Dragon. Quite possibly the most powerful and knowledgeable person in Rand-land that could exist without being a deity of some sort.

 

Can Rand re-seal the Bore? Without a doubt. He may be able to do it almost but not quite by himself. I don't think the resolution will end up being resealing the bore.. not without a *permanent* solution. We already know that whatever touches the DO will be corrupted.. the last time was saidin. If they use both saidin and saidar, I'm guessing both will be tainted. Something *else* has to touch the DO .. something that can't be corrupted. What could that be I wonder.. The SONG? Padan Fain? Nynaeve's braid? An unabridged printed copy of all 15 books of The Wheel of Time? (Including New Spring)

[The Fallen One]

I think Saidin and Saidar will have to be used to do it. (That seems to be Rand's opinion as well.) Since they would both be Tainted if they were to directly touch the Dark One, that leads me to believe that there need to be some sort of buffer. My best guess would be that Callandor has something to do with this. Although, after reading this topic, I am starting to lean towards a printed copy of the whole series doing the trick.

[OptimusPrime]

I have a theory on how the ending will play out, in short it involves Callandor touching the Dark One instead of weaves. If you are interested, there is a link to the theory I posted in my sig (if you follow the link and scroll up its there)

[The Fallen One]

I am interested, however it appears that I cannot reach the link from my work computer. <sigh>

[WhiskyJack]

I don't see the link either..

[Kati]

But what of the flaw in Callandor? Surely that would make it too dangerous to be used as a buffer? I seem to remember that the flaw increases the taint or something. Maybe it's different now that Saidin Is cleansed.

Also who would be the two women in the circle and the one circle controlling Callandor?

[Terez]

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

[rand4747]

Remembring all his lives may have only happened during the event on dragonmount and afterwards it slowly faded away again, he probably still had some of his big effects on him when coming down the mountain and visiting egwene. Afterwards though he was probably left with just the memories of lews Therin. His sorta overdose had faded.

[Finnssss22]

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

 

 

Whether he has LTT's full memories or not is irrelevant, LTT didn't know how to seal the bore, he only knew how to patch it.

Not to mention, in his conversation with Egwene, he clearly states he is not sure how but he suspects it will require both the men and the women working together.

 

I mean c'mon, Moiriane aint coming back solely so Thom can have a wife right

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

 

Yes, I agree.

 

I also think he references it when he comes down from Dragonmount to Almen. He says something along the lines of "you can find knowledge there. But do not look at it too long, or you will be overwhelmed, balance is the key."

 

Im thinking this was reference to looking at his other lives. He remembers remembering them, and perhaps can recall bits and pieces that stood out, but it is not as his LTT memories. I think of it as he was watching a slide show go through his mind of the past lives, but he cannot replay them.

 

In any case, however it happened, you are correct, Rand does not have those memories, or he would know how to re-seal the bore.

[Terez]

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

 

 

Whether he has LTT's full memories or not is irrelevant, LTT didn't know how to seal the bore, he only knew how to patch it.

Yes, which is why people are suggesting he can remember lives before Lews Therin. I'm saying he most likely can't.

[Jimvzyl]

In the Great Hunt, does Hawkwing not say to Rand that they have fought against each other many times and fought together so many more? Something along those lines, my apology - I don't have the book with me.

 

Which leads me to believe that although the Dragon soul's purpose is to be reborn to face the DO, the soul will still be reborn at other times.

 

But if LTT was the last incarnation of the Dragon before Rand, that means that Rand has not been spun out between LTT and Rand. So before LTT, the Dragon could have been spun out as a ta'veren with different purpose? Otherwise when would the souls of Hawkwing and the Dragon ever really corresponded?

 

Which dictates the importance of this battle specifically in that the pattern did not spin Rand out for other purposes between his birth and LTT's death as some other hero, and yet he would still have to have existed (as a ta'veren without the purpose of facing the DO) earlier than LTT to have interacted extensively with the soul of Artur Hawkwing, with battles against the DO being between such encounters.

 

Which means it could actually have been many many lives before LTT that the last Dragon was needed to face the DO and those memories are far too indistinct for Rand to remember exactly what he is meant to do, whereas the fresh LTT abilities give a little insight.

 

Thats how I see it, can anyone explain my error if there is 1?

[WhiskyJack]

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

 

 

Whether he has LTT's full memories or not is irrelevant, LTT didn't know how to seal the bore, he only knew how to patch it.

Yes, which is why people are suggesting he can remember lives before Lews Therin. I'm saying he most likely can't.

 

 

Since people have proposed that Bore was sealed before and probably by Dragon himself, remembering that knowledge basically will kill the series. So Jordan conveniently decided to make Rand forget all that information and remember only LTT because Rand will not pull LTT this time. And yes I agree, he doesn't remember anything because that basically will kill aMoL. Forgetting works better as plot point.

[GB]

i think rand's situation is more like Birgitte who is slowly losing all her past lives memories.

 

when she was ripped out of TaR, she says something that she can remember all her past lives but slowly losing some memories until the last reincartion is clearest to her which is why rand remembers mostly LTT and as someone said its like a really fast powerpoint slides presentation. lol

[herid]

In the Great Hunt, does Hawkwing not say to Rand that they have fought against each other many times and fought together so many more? Something along those lines, my apology - I don't have the book with me.

 

Which leads me to believe that although the Dragon soul's purpose is to be reborn to face the DO, the soul will still be reborn at other times.

 

But if LTT was the last incarnation of the Dragon before Rand, that means that Rand has not been spun out between LTT and Rand.

 

correct

So before LTT, the Dragon could have been spun out as a ta'veren with different purpose? Otherwise when would the souls of Hawkwing and the Dragon ever really corresponded?

RJ answered this

 

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

 

 

Which dictates the importance of this battle specifically in that the pattern did not spin Rand out for other purposes between his birth and LTT's death as some other hero, and yet he would still have to have existed (as a ta'veren without the purpose of facing the DO) earlier than LTT to have interacted extensively with the soul of Artur Hawkwing, with battles against the DO being between such encounters.

 

Which means it could actually have been many many lives before LTT that the last Dragon was needed to face the DO and those memories are far too indistinct for Rand to remember exactly what he is meant to do, whereas the fresh LTT abilities give a little insight.

 

Thats how I see it, can anyone explain my error if there is 1?

I don't know about that. defeating the DO would have been the most crucial moment of any of his past lives. People tend to remember such things long after they've forgotten everything else.

 

 

 

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

good point. But if he dies and is then pushed out of TAR as Birgitte was he should have access to all his past lives at least for a while. That should give him a big edge as he should know how the bore was sealed in previous turnings of the wheel.

[Sid]

i.e. A Memory of Light

[Jimvzyl]

The problem is we have no context in which to speculate how many memories the reincarnated retain in their souls, as its a purely fantastical occurence.

 

 

Maybe he does remember, but as he's stuck in the dark ages, he is unable to create the flux capacitor necessary to seal the DO away.

Which is why he needs Cal and the Steamwagon.

:)

 

But in all seriousness, I think maybe Sid is right and Rand in fact does know a way, he might just not know how under current circumstances.

[Terez]

If Rand remembered other lives, he wouldn't have referred to himself as being only 400 years old. It was pretty clear that it was a momentary epiphany, and that he doesn't remember how to seal the Bore.

good point. But if he dies and is then pushed out of TAR as Birgitte was he should have access to all his past lives at least for a while.

Indeed, he should. But he doesn't remember now.

[WhiskyJack]

Does any of this even matter. There is a consensus here that basically everything is wheel's doing (even bad). So Rand doesn't remember his other past lives because wheel doesn't want him to remember it. And as for as sealing the bore goes (or defecting the DO), since it's all upto wheel, at the right moment Rand suddenly will know exactly what to do. Yay, victory. He is champion of light afterall and wheel will not allow any other result.

[Dream]

Rand remembers. That's an interesting idea. I've never really considered that Rand remembers how to fix the Bore because, well, what would be the point of the rest of the story? Also, he's still trying to figure things out. But what if...

 

What if the solution is not as easy as remembering what was done before. Afterall, while we speculate what Rand may remember, we know the Dark One remembers. The problem is not static. Rand cannot do the same thing over and over again as the Dark One can and will actively prevent it from happening.

 

What if Rand does (or did) remember exactly how the Last Battle was won each and every time but knows that the solution is never the same. We have evidence that Rand remembered all his past lives. We have evidence that Rand is still searching for a solution. This is consistent with Rand's behaviour in ToM. He generally knows what he has to do, but he's still trying to work out the specifics (re. Min).

 

What if Rand's purpose isn't to fight in any specific battle or to defeat any specific person (or entity) but is to figure out the solution provided by the Wheel for this turning. The Wheel has provided the tools: Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Min, Moiraine, Aiel, etc. The Wheel has provided the clues: Prophecies, Dreams, Viewings, etc. Rand's task is to put it all together and utilize it before the Dark One can figure out the solution and stop it.

 

What if this is all a game between the Creator and the Dark One. The Wheel is like a blacksmith's puzzle for the Dark One, who seeks to solve the riddle and take it apart. But the Wheel is a dynamic puzzle, reorienting itself to prevent the Dark One from finding the solution. Afterall, for all the Dark One's supposedly immense power he seems rather constrained, as if bound by the rules of the game.

 

Well, there's my train of thoughts.

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

I am interested, however it appears that I cannot reach the link from my work computer. <sigh>

I don't see the link either..

 

Its the arrow icon in the quote bar. I should have posted the proper link in the first place, apologies

 

Two Dead Men thread

 

The theory I mentioned is on page 2

[Justanotherfacet]

I have a quick query, do you all remember back in the good old days when Rand transported everyone to Falme using a portal stone? (cue horn of valare, fain, ishy in the skys etc)

 

During the shift everyone lived a thousand possible lives since Rand kinda sucked at that point - well anyway i've always wondered why everyone (apparently) forgot these lives... I mean Rand remembered his first trip and a thousand lives worth of channeling knowledge sure would have been helpful for Rand...

 

Also, do you guys think that any of our heroes are ever spun out and then just kinda miss the plot train? (ie Rand never leaving and being a farmer forever)

[Terez]

I have a quick query, do you all remember back in the good old days when Rand transported everyone to Falme using a portal stone? (cue horn of valare, fain, ishy in the skys etc)

 

During the shift everyone lived a thousand possible lives since Rand kinda sucked at that point - well anyway i've always wondered why everyone (apparently) forgot these lives... I mean Rand remembered his first trip and a thousand lives worth of channeling knowledge sure would have been helpful for Rand...

That's like asking why Birgitte doesn't remember all her lives, or why the women who go to Rhuidean don't remember everything the rings showed them. The human brain can apparently only handle so much information, and while Rand surely remembers in a general way what kind of alternate fates he saw, and he no doubt remembers 'I have won again, Lews Therin', I doubt it extends to small details like remembering weaves. Besides, most of the lives he lived, he didn't really learn much with the Power. He was a wilder, making it up as he went along, usually no more skilled than Rand was at that point.

 

Also, do you guys think that any of our heroes are ever spun out and then just kinda miss the plot train? (ie Rand never leaving and being a farmer forever)

They have normal lives sometimes. But when the Wheel needs them, they have no choice; Loial made that clear enough back in TEOTW. Sometimes, the change chooses you.

[WhiskyJack]

Rand remembers LTT's memories because 22 year old male channeler doesn't stand a chance against a trained Aes Sedai. Rand doesn't remember anything else because it will kill the book. Just a plot point. Imagine the series, if Rand had no memory of LTT. He would have died in first book.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Does any of this even matter. There is a consensus here that basically everything is wheel's doing (even bad). So Rand doesn't remember his other past lives because wheel doesn't want him to remember it. And as for as sealing the bore goes (or defecting the DO), since it's all upto wheel, at the right moment Rand suddenly will know exactly what to do. Yay, victory. He is champion of light afterall and wheel will not allow any other result.

 

I see we have confused your idea of the Wheel and the Pattern, you seem to misunderstand the points.

 

I suggest looking up the Pattern in the BWB, or search for related threads.

 

here is a good place to start at least http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/52821-choice-and-the-pattern/page__p__1657115__hl__pattern+__fromsearch__1#entry1657115

 

may add more for you