Men in the White Tower

[WhiskyJack]

Are people claiming that Dragon alone can march to SG and kick DO's butt while rest of world can watch this action live on HDTV?

[WhiskyJack]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

Which brick in a wall is the most vital? If any of the people in current positions of power weren't necessary, then they wouldn't be there. If Egwene isn't Amyrlin, then Elaida would be or Romanda. In those scenarios the world loses because Rand loses.

 

How does this follow? We have nothing in the text to suggest that a helpful Amyrlin is necessary for a light-side victory. Helpful. I'm sure, but not necessary.

 

So what can you take off and still win? WT? BT? Seanchan? Armies of Aiel/Randlanders? Is Rand about to march on to SG alone and do it all ? I am assuming ofcourse that light is underdog here, Dragon's presence non-withstanding and taking something as big as WT tower out might as well cripple the whole beating the shadow thing. In Avihenda's future vision, Dragon knelt before the empress of Seanchan? If these people are just helpful but not necessary, why even bother?

[randsc]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

Which brick in a wall is the most vital? If any of the people in current positions of power weren't necessary, then they wouldn't be there. If Egwene isn't Amyrlin, then Elaida would be or Romanda. In those scenarios the world loses because Rand loses.

 

How does this follow? We have nothing in the text to suggest that a helpful Amyrlin is necessary for a light-side victory. Helpful. I'm sure, but not necessary.

 

So what can you take off and still win? WT? BT? Seanchan? Armies of Aiel/Randlanders? Is Rand about to march on to SG alone and do it all ? I am assuming ofcourse that light is underdog here, Dragon's presence non-withstanding and taking something as big as WT tower out might as well cripple the whole beating the shadow thing. In Avihenda's future vision, Dragon knelt before the empress of Seanchan? If these people are just helpful but not necessary, why even bother?

 

The armies, including the channelers, will be important in preserving as much as possible for the post-TG rebuilding.

 

The Last Battle will be won by a very small group, very possibly comprised of people who would be with Rand even if the White Tower was actively opposing him.

[Puny]

I would welcome men that can channel in the White Tower. =)

 

What Demandred says is true. The dragon is important. Without him the world has no chance to defeat the DO. Light, the Wheel itself is spinning him out for a reason time and time again, so ofc he is important.

A helpful Amyrlin I don´t think is necessary. Rand being who he is can forcefully bend the Pattern to his will, and a helpful Amyrlin would make things easier but it´s not necessary I think. WT, BT, Seanchan...I do think Rand needs them as it makes his task easier. But he is still more important because of what he can do to the Dark One.

[WhiskyJack]

Cool...

[Guest PiotrekS]

Why wouldn't the male leader by the T'Amyrlin? Dragon is not just a title in this world. It would be like the Pope adopting the title "Messiah."

 

I agree, T'Amyrlin is better. I've forgotten about it.

[W_A]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

Which brick in a wall is the most vital? If any of the people in current positions of power weren't necessary, then they wouldn't be there. If Egwene isn't Amyrlin, then Elaida would be or Romanda. In those scenarios the world loses because Rand loses.

 

How does this follow? We have nothing in the text to suggest that a helpful Amyrlin is necessary for a light-side victory. Helpful. I'm sure, but not necessary.

 

So what can you take off and still win? WT? BT? Seanchan? Armies of Aiel/Randlanders? Is Rand about to march on to SG alone and do it all ? I am assuming ofcourse that light is underdog here, Dragon's presence non-withstanding and taking something as big as WT tower out might as well cripple the whole beating the shadow thing. In Avihenda's future vision, Dragon knelt before the empress of Seanchan? If these people are just helpful but not necessary, why even bother?

 

What they're saying is that Rand and the ta'verens are the only ones who in and of themselves are super important. Egwene is filling the role of helpful Amyrlin. That's probably important to have a helpful Amyrlin, but it doesn't have to be specifically her. The Blakc Tower could be any organization of male channelers that would listen to him. The Seanchan could be any powerful nation. However, if you replaced Perrin with any other Wolfbrother who is leading a coalition of nations, it wouldn't work. There is something inherently special about those three, making them irreplacable (Possibly others also. I'm not necessarily ruling out Moiraine.) It seems like replacing these characters with anyone else, no matter how similar, would assure that they would lose TG.

[Carnivean]

How does this follow? We have nothing in the text to suggest that a helpful Amyrlin is necessary for a light-side victory. Helpful. I'm sure, but not necessary.

The pattern is weaving a ta'maral'ailen. It's chosen the players it needs to satisfy that. 3 Tavaren to move the pieces around, but everyone in the web is being moved into their correct positions.

 

But there is plenty in the text to show us that an unhelpful Amyrlin would prevent Rand from winning. Elaida was going to turn him into a trophy. Even Suian was going to try and control him. The pattern needs Egwene to be the Amyrlin, or it wouldn't have gone out of it's way to put her there, to give her the training with the Wise Ones to be strong, to give her a relationship with Rand, etc.

 

The Dragon isn't fighting the Dark One by himself, or even as a small band. He's mobilising the world to fight the DO, and the pattern is putting the pieces he needs in the right spot for him.

[lilltempest]

How does this follow? We have nothing in the text to suggest that a helpful Amyrlin is necessary for a light-side victory. Helpful. I'm sure, but not necessary.

The pattern is weaving a ta'maral'ailen. It's chosen the players it needs to satisfy that. 3 Tavaren to move the pieces around, but everyone in the web is being moved into their correct positions.

 

But there is plenty in the text to show us that an unhelpful Amyrlin would prevent Rand from winning. Elaida was going to turn him into a trophy. Even Suian was going to try and control him. The pattern needs Egwene to be the Amyrlin, or it wouldn't have gone out of it's way to put her there, to give her the training with the Wise Ones to be strong, to give her a relationship with Rand, etc.

 

The Dragon isn't fighting the Dark One by himself, or even as a small band. He's mobilising the world to fight the DO, and the pattern is putting the pieces he needs in the right spot for him.

 

I'm sorry. I've been reading this thread quietly but can't contain myself...

 

"HELPFUL" Amyrlin??? Egwene??? Seriously??

 

She is like a combination of Siuan and Elaida where Rand is concerned - the first thing she demands of him when he shows up at the WT is to know if he's come to submit himself for punishment for his crimes! She wants, just as much as Siuan and Elaida, to control him and force him to her will. The only difference is that she isn't a complete and utter moron - she recognizes that she could not hold him and that the circle of thirteen holding him wasn't enough. If she had thought for one moment she could have forced him to remain there so she could subjugate him just like she has done with everyone else (Nynaeve included) then she would have done it. But, more than anything, Egwene does not want to appear weak and has to have her ego fed. Since she suspected he could get free no matter what she did - and that him breaking free from her would make her look bad - she let him go. Then she continues her "helpful" ways by attempting to turn all the world's leaders against him, thinking to herself that Darlin had to be replaced because he was not quick enough to turn on Rand when she demanded it. Helpful, indeed.

 

The bottom line is that Rand does not need Egwene or any other Amyrlin to back him. He has Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Caddy's followers, Logain, the Asha'man who are away from Taim's influence, the Sea Folk (including the Windfinders), and Alivia. And Moiraine, once she gets back to him. If Egwene wants to continue to be a petty little controlling bitch, then she can take her toys and go home and let the big boys and girls help out the most important man in the world. Rand may use her to get certain things accomplished (like he did in ToM when he played her for the ego-driven, stubborn, anti-Rand little bint that she is) but need her? He needs her like he needs to lose his other hand. The best thing that could happen for him is for her to throw a tantrum, get the hell out of the way, and go back to her ivory tower and contemplate on her own greatness so he can work with truly helpful people in order to get stuff done.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It doesnt really matter to Rand if the world is consumed by Trollocs.

 

His job is to defeat the DO. Only him and a small band of people, like most sensible have said, are needed.

 

Egwene and co. are important for re-building and suchlike, that has nothing to do with the LB.

 

Listen to Verin. The LB isnt the fight between men and trollocs.

 

Caemlyn can burn, the whole world can burn. Technically, it doesnt matter. Rand still seals away the DO. He can just travel near Shayol Ghul and do what needs to be done.

 

Of course, in the story, people will help him. But from a theoretical stance, only Mat, Perrin and moiraine are needed. He can pull it off without the others.

 

@Lilltempest: I think that is the greatest "speech" I have "heard" on the forums to date. And quite true.

 

Edit: Rand doesnt need to gain the support of the Tower even to fight in the LB. They will do it, behind him or not. They will fight or die. Its that simple.

 

Ill say it one more time. Rand is NOT saving the world from every single squabble they get into. He is there to fight the DO, and the DO alone. Not the hoards of shadowpawn. Thats others' job, if they want to survive, they have to do it themselves. Rand, of course, will wish to help them stay in the best shape possible. Nobody wants the world consumed by trollocs, but he doesnt have to. He can leave them to fight for themselves, and defeat the one who not only threatens their lives, but the existance of the pattern, the DO.

[OptimusPrime]

I'm sorry. I've been reading this thread quietly but can't contain myself...

 

"HELPFUL" Amyrlin??? Egwene??? Seriously??

 

She is like a combination of Siuan and Elaida where Rand is concerned - the first thing she demands of him when he shows up at the WT is to know if he's come to submit himself for punishment for his crimes! She wants, just as much as Siuan and Elaida, to control him and force him to her will. The only difference is that she isn't a complete and utter moron - she recognizes that she could not hold him and that the circle of thirteen holding him wasn't enough. If she had thought for one moment she could have forced him to remain there so she could subjugate him just like she has done with everyone else (Nynaeve included) then she would have done it. But, more than anything, Egwene does not want to appear weak and has to have her ego fed. Since she suspected he could get free no matter what she did - and that him breaking free from her would make her look bad - she let him go. Then she continues her "helpful" ways by attempting to turn all the world's leaders against him, thinking to herself that Darlin had to be replaced because he was not quick enough to turn on Rand when she demanded it. Helpful, indeed.

 

The bottom line is that Rand does not need Egwene or any other Amyrlin to back him. He has Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Caddy's followers, Logain, the Asha'man who are away from Taim's influence, the Sea Folk (including the Windfinders), and Alivia. And Moiraine, once she gets back to him. If Egwene wants to continue to be a petty little controlling bitch, then she can take her toys and go home and let the big boys and girls help out the most important man in the world. Rand may use her to get certain things accomplished (like he did in ToM when he played her for the ego-driven, stubborn, anti-Rand little bint that she is) but need her? He needs her like he needs to lose his other hand. The best thing that could happen for him is for her to throw a tantrum, get the hell out of the way, and go back to her ivory tower and contemplate on her own greatness so he can work with truly helpful people in order to get stuff done.

 

Will you marry me?

[Jon Paul]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

[OptimusPrime]

The Dragon doesnt need acknowledged authority to do what he does. He needs to be in the right frame of mind, and the rest will unfold as it should.

[MauricXe]

I agree with Barid Bel Medar.

[WhiskyJack]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

[Zentari]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

[OptimusPrime]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

 

This. One way or another you will do what the Dragon needs you to do. Sometimes the Pattern might even need you to oppose him in the short run, but in the long run he doesnt need your word or your allegiance, only your existence.

[Agitel]

People need to remember that Egwene doesn't know much about the new zen Rand. Last she heard he was off breaking nations, causing wars, acting eccentric, extremely hot tempered, rash, wild, etc... She sees herself and the Tower as the force that needs to temper and guide that crazy Rand, like a woman embracing and guiding, but not forcing, saidar. Is she right? No, but look at what she's heard about him lately. And she only met with him once for a few minutes after he became zen Rand, he proposed something that sounds absolutely insane, and she had just awoken from a Dream about him breaking the seals (or that's the most obvious interpretation) and walking away shaking his head.

 

And Rand himself needs the others. He himself admits it. The Dragon can't do it by himself, he'd already tried that. Is Egwene ta'veren? No, but the Pattern certainly seems to be using her.

[Zentari]

And Rand himself needs the others. He himself admits it. The Dragon can't do it by himself, he'd already tried that. Is Egwene ta'veren? No, but the Pattern certainly seems to be using her.

Thing is , it's not an election.If the Dragon needs you, the pattern is gonna shove you under, one way or another.You don't get a vote for that.The Dragon is special because he affects the pattern, and is in turn affected by it , not because people flock to his banner.

[WhiskyJack]

And Rand himself needs the others. He himself admits it. The Dragon can't do it by himself, he'd already tried that. Is Egwene ta'veren? No, but the Pattern certainly seems to be using her.

Thing is , it's not an election.If the Dragon needs you, the pattern is gonna shove you under, one way or another.You don't get a vote for that.The Dragon is special because he affects the pattern, and is in turn affected by it , not because people flock to his banner.

 

 

And how this fits with Rand kneeling to Empress of Seanchan (it may not happen thanks to Aviendha but it's a possibility)? He did it for funzies? If pattern is this cool, why cannot it just turn all bad guys to good guys? Why would there be evil in the world in first place? Obviously pattern doesn't want DO to get free so it's obviously playing a very dangerous game based on your concept.

[WhiskyJack]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

 

This. One way or another you will do what the Dragon needs you to do. Sometimes the Pattern might even need you to oppose him in the short run, but in the long run he doesnt need your word or your allegiance, only your existence.

 

 

So you believe Moridin, Demandred, ...basically are doing pattern's bidding? Rand will just ask them to surrender and wham bham, thank you mam..war is over just like that?

[WhiskyJack]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

 

It doesn't matter how I see it, it's how it's been spelled out in books. Why has Rand faced so much opposition (still does) and sometimes sheer indifference when whole world got the memo about creator asking everyone to bow down to Dragon.

[Zentari]

And Rand himself needs the others. He himself admits it. The Dragon can't do it by himself, he'd already tried that. Is Egwene ta'veren? No, but the Pattern certainly seems to be using her.

Thing is , it's not an election.If the Dragon needs you, the pattern is gonna shove you under, one way or another.You don't get a vote for that.The Dragon is special because he affects the pattern, and is in turn affected by it , not because people flock to his banner.

 

 

And how this fits with Rand kneeling to Empress of Seanchan (it may not happen thanks to Aviendha but it's a possibility)? He did it for funzies? If pattern is this cool, why cannot it just turn all bad guys to good guys? Why would there be evil in the world in first place? Obviously pattern doesn't want DO to get free so it's obviously playing a very dangerous game based on your concept.

Did he get the peace yet ? No, but he will so yeah, it fits with the whole empress of seanchan ,also at that time, Rand needed that kick.

As for the other questions one could also ask why the creator did not make a perfect world or get off his ass and do something.It just doesn't happen that way (if you want to get really obsessed on it,notice how darkfriends go blind now? One could hypothesize that there is something different with them).

 

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

 

It doesn't matter how I see it, it's how it's been spelled out in books. Why has Rand faced so much opposition (still does) and sometimes sheer indifference when whole world got the memo about creator asking everyone to bow down to Dragon.

Are you arguing this in-universe or rather from outside?

From outside the books have spelled out that he is a special existence one with the pattern and he is the strongest taveren so it blows your argument of him being a simply powerful channeler without the people's support right out of the water..

 

If it's in universe then people believe all sorts of stuff in randland like the aes sedai having infinite wisdom,the aiel always being a militant race etc etc.

[WhiskyJack]

I don't know what argument is getting blown where but one thing is indisputable: the idea of free will. People make their own choices. Pattern can influence people to a certain extent, especially those who are already willing. Pattern cannot make people do something they don't want to do.

 

Now have fun debating it for sake of it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Learn to use the multiquote button instead of double and triple posting all the time. It's right next to the reply button.

 

As for the ongoing debate it's obvious that Rand is by far the most important because he can't be replaced. Egwene can be. There are a dozen women who could do a reasonably good job as Amyrlin, perhaps not as good as she can, but still good enough to pave the way to the future of the Aes Sedai. With Rand there is no replacement. If he's defeated it's over. That's where his authority comes from. All Egwene did is win an election and she has only direct sway over a third of half the channellers in the world. The rest of the world while it may fear and respect her institution really doesn't have anything to do with her.

 

Where the Amyrlin comes in isn't in the strike against SG I believe. It's in dealing with the sideshow. The battles against the Shadowspawn, mitigating the effects of the inevitable breaking of the world and holding mankind together afterwards that's where the Amyrlin can shine. Even if the Amyrlin opposed him Rand could still succeed in defeating the DO. He can easily get enough female channellers to help him no matter what Egwene wants to.