Men in the White Tower

[PhoenixAngel]

This just slapped me in the face today, after realizing the foreshadowing involved. It is nearly assured that we will see the men return to the White Tower in some form or another.

 

A massive rose window dominated the far wall behind the Amyrlin Seat itself. The Flame at the center sparkled, as if there were sunlight beyond, though Egwene knew those boiling black clouds covered all the sky of the World of Dreams.

 

She turned from the window, then froze.

 

There, set into the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large segment in the shape of the Dragon’s Fang. That wasn’t part of the original window. Egwene stepped forward, inspecting the glass.

 

There is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One, Verin’s meticulous voice said, a memory from another time. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel’aran’rhiod.

 

Did this window represent one of those, another world where Dragon and Amyrlin ruled Tar Valon side by side?

 

I am sure a lot of other things have been said about it, but I missed it the first time through. Your thoughts ?

[SylviaDoreen]

It could be just one of the many 'mirror' worlds that the world of dreams allows a dreamer to glimpse.

 

Or it could mean that maybe she did fortell something, though I really think that would be a bit difficult due to Egwene's current state of mind (Think of a solid brick, only more stubborn).

[W_A]

I hope that this doesn't turn this into an Egwene bashing thread, but this is the kind of attitude I hate in her. We saw in tGH that she thought that she was as strong as him because everyone had been saying she was so great, and so she tried to equal him and was beaten. Ever since becoming Amyrlin, it seems like she's forgotten that lesson. She isn't the female Dragon. She is important. Possibly one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time, as everyone seems to believe, just like she was one pf the strongest Aes Sedai in thousands of years. BUT SHE STILL IS NOT THE DRAGON. It really annoys me that she keeps setting herself up as his equal in importance.

 

Personally, I think that this wasn't actually a mirror world, but was just her shaping TAR. This was literally immediately after she told the Wise Ones about Rand's plan to break the seals. You need to notice that the Fang was mentioned as being below the flame. If it were a world where the Dragon and Amyrlin ruled as equals, they would almost undoubtably be side by side, if not united in the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. I think it's just the fact that she is still really annoyed about Rand and is thinking that he needs to be free, but still needs to be below her, and TAR is just reflecting those thoughts.

 

Of course, this is coming from a very anti-Egwene viewpoint, but that's how I see it.

[Durinax]

I hope that this doesn't turn this into an Egwene bashing thread, but this is the kind of attitude I hate in her. We saw in tGH that she thought that she was as strong as him because everyone had been saying she was so great, and so she tried to equal him and was beaten. Ever since becoming Amyrlin, it seems like she's forgotten that lesson. She isn't the female Dragon. She is important. Possibly one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time, as everyone seems to believe, just like she was one pf the strongest Aes Sedai in thousands of years. BUT SHE STILL IS NOT THE DRAGON. It really annoys me that she keeps setting herself up as his equal in importance.

 

Personally, I think that this wasn't actually a mirror world, but was just her shaping TAR. This was literally immediately after she told the Wise Ones about Rand's plan to break the seals. You need to notice that the Fang was mentioned as being below the flame. If it were a world where the Dragon and Amyrlin ruled as equals, they would almost undoubtably be side by side, if not united in the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. I think it's just the fact that she is still really annoyed about Rand and is thinking that he needs to be free, but still needs to be below her, and TAR is just reflecting those thoughts.

 

Of course, this is coming from a very anti-Egwene viewpoint, but that's how I see it.

thats a really good point, I never thought of it that way, but I too hate Egwene and partially skim through her arcs but for some reason I actually did not think about this

[bsmnt23]

I always took it as a sign from the future that the male and female channelers would unite to form a co-ed White Tower, and a unified Aes Sedai once again, but that doesnt jive with what RJ has said about the timeflow. The pattern is...fluctuating recently, and it seems strongest both in Camlyen and Tar Valon, both places where the OP is used quite a bit. I wonder if the pattern fluctuates more arround the OP? It's been put out that the Pattern uses Taverens to correct imperfections in the pattern and set it right. Maybe some of the fluctuations are the pattern trying to correct itself from other mirror worlds, and the window is the pattern asserting itself on how the world should be, but..that would imply at least a semi-sentience to the pattern, would in turn imply a guiding intelect, would imply the creator...and I dont know if I like the imlications of that.

[bsmnt23]

I always took it as a sign from the future that the male and female channelers would unite to form a co-ed White Tower, and a unified Aes Sedai once again, but that doesnt jive with what RJ has said about the timeflow. The pattern is...fluctuating recently, and it seems strongest both in Camlyen and Tar Valon, both places where the OP is used quite a bit. I wonder if the pattern fluctuates more arround the OP? It's been put out that the Pattern uses Taverens to correct imperfections in the pattern and set it right. Maybe some of the fluctuations are the pattern trying to correct itself from other mirror worlds, and the window is the pattern asserting itself on how the world should be, but..that would imply at least a semi-sentience to the pattern, would in turn imply a guiding intelect, would imply the creator...and I dont know if I like the imlications of that.

[MasterAblar]

I hope that this doesn't turn this into an Egwene bashing thread, but this is the kind of attitude I hate in her. We saw in tGH that she thought that she was as strong as him because everyone had been saying she was so great, and so she tried to equal him and was beaten. Ever since becoming Amyrlin, it seems like she's forgotten that lesson. She isn't the female Dragon. She is important. Possibly one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time, as everyone seems to believe, just like she was one pf the strongest Aes Sedai in thousands of years. BUT SHE STILL IS NOT THE DRAGON. It really annoys me that she keeps setting herself up as his equal in importance.

 

Personally, I think that this wasn't actually a mirror world, but was just her shaping TAR. This was literally immediately after she told the Wise Ones about Rand's plan to break the seals. You need to notice that the Fang was mentioned as being below the flame. If it were a world where the Dragon and Amyrlin ruled as equals, they would almost undoubtably be side by side, if not united in the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. I think it's just the fact that she is still really annoyed about Rand and is thinking that he needs to be free, but still needs to be below her, and TAR is just reflecting those thoughts.

 

Of course, this is coming from a very anti-Egwene viewpoint, but that's how I see it.

 

I believe that was in tSR not tGH. Just pointing that out.

 

As for the fang, well while I don't think that it means that men will end up being in the WT, I do think that there could be cooperation. I don't think this is Egwene dreaming however, just a reflection of Egwene's thoughts. We know she wants to unite the women channelers under the WT, she may very well want to bring in male channelers as well, even if she has not realised it yet. Though as someone pointed out the fact that the fang is under the flame might be indicative of her belief that aes sedai are above ashaman.

[bsmnt23]

I always took it as a sign from the future that the male and female channelers would unite to form a co-ed White Tower, and a unified Aes Sedai once again, but that doesnt jive with what RJ has said about the timeflow. The pattern is...fluctuating recently, and it seems strongest both in Camlyen and Tar Valon, both places where the OP is used quite a bit. I wonder if the pattern fluctuates more arround the OP? It's been put out that the Pattern uses Taverens to correct imperfections in the pattern and set it right. Maybe some of the fluctuations are the pattern trying to correct itself from other mirror worlds, and the window is the pattern asserting itself on how the world should be, but..that would imply at least a semi-sentience to the pattern, would in turn imply a guiding intelect, would imply the creator...and I dont know if I like the imlications of that.

[WhiskyJack]

Dragon ruled alone, I think. Co-rule is so lame.

[WhiskyJack]

I hope that this doesn't turn this into an Egwene bashing thread, but this is the kind of attitude I hate in her. We saw in tGH that she thought that she was as strong as him because everyone had been saying she was so great, and so she tried to equal him and was beaten. Ever since becoming Amyrlin, it seems like she's forgotten that lesson. She isn't the female Dragon. She is important. Possibly one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time, as everyone seems to believe, just like she was one pf the strongest Aes Sedai in thousands of years. BUT SHE STILL IS NOT THE DRAGON. It really annoys me that she keeps setting herself up as his equal in importance.

 

Personally, I think that this wasn't actually a mirror world, but was just her shaping TAR. This was literally immediately after she told the Wise Ones about Rand's plan to break the seals. You need to notice that the Fang was mentioned as being below the flame. If it were a world where the Dragon and Amyrlin ruled as equals, they would almost undoubtably be side by side, if not united in the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. I think it's just the fact that she is still really annoyed about Rand and is thinking that he needs to be free, but still needs to be below her, and TAR is just reflecting those thoughts.

 

Of course, this is coming from a very anti-Egwene viewpoint, but that's how I see it.

 

 

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

[Guest PiotrekS]

I also think it means that men and women will be united again as Aes Sedai, possibly with the Amyrlin and the Dragon (title adopted by Logain in Rand's memory to replace the compromised m'hael?) ruling Tar Valon and new Hall of the Servants together.

 

Re: Egwene getting on par with Dragon Reborn. It's not her, it's the author. RJ clearly tried to set her as Rand's female counterpart, to have balance and 1 lead male+1 lead female.

 

I think he unfortunately failed to write a plausibe Egwene's arc. It reads like RJ changed his mind halfway through. In the first books, Egwene is a relatively normal, important and strong character. Somewhere later on the road she gets an unexplainable boost in importance and becomes someone akin to "female Dragon", culminating in her terrible, terrible arc in TGS (my very subjectibe opinion, I know, but I personally find Egwene's WT capitvity to be the weakest part of the whole series).

[randsc]

Why wouldn't the male leader by the T'Amyrlin? Dragon is not just a title in this world. It would be like the Pope adopting the title "Messiah."

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Well.... The LAND ITSELF bends around him.

 

The Dragon is one with the Land.

 

He is the saviour. It may be cheezy and people may hate all they want, but Rand is the Champion of the World.

 

Nobody is more important than him. Egwene can die and life will go on. Rand dies, or fails, the world is destroyed.

 

Hardly equal importance.

[MasterAblar]

Why wouldn't the male leader by the T'Amyrlin? Dragon is not just a title in this world. It would be like the Pope adopting the title "Messiah."

 

Well Tamrylin was an actual person, the first one to Channel. If the male leader called himself Tamrylin wouldn't that be like the Pope calling himself Jesus? Or at least something similar since I suppose Rand/LTT is really much more Jesus.

[Carnivean]

Why wouldn't the male leader by the T'Amyrlin? Dragon is not just a title in this world. It would be like the Pope adopting the title "Messiah."

 

Well Tamrymin was an actual person, the first one to Channel. If the male leader called himself Tamrylin wouldn't that be like the Pope calling himself Jesus?

Czar, Tsar, Csar. All refer back to Caesar, in a direct homage or attempt to claim his legacy.

[herid]

This just slapped me in the face today, after realizing the foreshadowing involved. It is nearly assured that we will see the men return to the White Tower in some form or another.

 

A massive rose window dominated the far wall behind the Amyrlin Seat itself. The Flame at the center sparkled, as if there were sunlight beyond, though Egwene knew those boiling black clouds covered all the sky of the World of Dreams.

 

She turned from the window, then froze.

 

There, set into the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large segment in the shape of the Dragon’s Fang. That wasn’t part of the original window. Egwene stepped forward, inspecting the glass.

 

There is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One, Verin’s meticulous voice said, a memory from another time. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel’aran’rhiod.

 

Did this window represent one of those, another world where Dragon and Amyrlin ruled Tar Valon side by side?

 

I am sure a lot of other things have been said about it, but I missed it the first time through. Your thoughts ?

 

I expect that there would be some sort of cooperation between Asha'man and Aes Sedai after the LB but I don't see them really uniting in the same power structure. Such unification would be natural and desirable but that's not where things seem to be heading in the books. Some considerable screen time was spent setting up future framework of female channelers organization (Kin, Aiel, Sea folk and Aes Sedai) but there were no plans at all made about cooperating with male channelers. Egwene is also set up to be "the greates and longest ruling amyrlin ever" as various characters intimate. Those do seem to be foreshadowings to me.

Even in Avi's visions in Rhuidean the Balck Tower and the White Tower are separate. That last might not mean much of course as I'm sure that very little of what Avi saw will actually happen. But still, this particular part will likely happen as Avi saw it.

 

 

As for the fang, well while I don't think that it means that men will end up being in the WT, I do think that there could be cooperation. I don't think this is Egwene dreaming however, just a reflection of Egwene's thoughts. We know she wants to unite the women channelers under the WT, she may very well want to bring in male channelers as well, even if she has not realised it yet. Though as someone pointed out the fact that the fang is under the flame might be indicative of her belief that aes sedai are above ashaman.

the remark about the location of the Fang is interesting but I disagree that this was what Egwene made herself. She is clearly very surpised to see it and she never thought of anything related at the time. She is also very experienced in TAR and doesn't project uncontrolled thoughts.

[WhiskyJack]

 

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Well.... The LAND ITSELF bends around him.

 

The Dragon is one with the Land.

 

He is the saviour. It may be cheezy and people may hate all they want, but Rand is the Champion of the World.

 

Nobody is more important than him. Egwene can die and life will go on. Rand dies, or fails, the world is destroyed.

 

Hardly equal importance.

 

I said she can be. Elaida almost had Dragon and savior was reduced to living in a 4 by 4 cell. Dragon's true strength comes from people who follow him and what would he be without his friends and one of those "friend" happens to be Amyrlin of White tower.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is still a senseless point. Egwene is raised by people as well. She may think she is the creators gift to the world,, but she is only there because of the people around her. Its the same thing.

[WhiskyJack]

It is still a senseless point. Egwene is raised by people as well. She may think she is the creators gift to the world,, but she is only there because of the people around her. Its the same thing.

 

 

Very true but that's precisely what I am talking about! Just like Dragon is important because many people choose to believe in him, same goes for Eqwene! Afteral Aes Sedai of white tower or Bryne or 100 thousand or so soldiers of white tower will not follow Dragon to TG and approval of Dragon from Amyrlin will only boost the approval of Dragon itself. I mean is Dragon a savior because he is Dragon or because he is Rand Al'thor, half Aiel friend of Egwene, Mat....you get the picture.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

[Carnivean]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

Which brick in a wall is the most vital? If any of the people in current positions of power weren't necessary, then they wouldn't be there. If Egwene isn't Amyrlin, then Elaida would be or Romanda. In those scenarios the world loses because Rand loses.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

 

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

 

This made me laugh.

[WhiskyJack]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

 

 

Circle of 3 is mentioned somewhere

[randsc]

I know what you are saying, and I agree, in the sense that he has got his EARTHLY power from the support of others.

 

But even if everyone betrayed him and Egwene controlled all of the world against him, he would still be more important, because of who he is. He and he alone can defeat the DO. If he fails, the world falls. So in that respect, Egwene cannot be his equal. She is essentially disposable. And im not picking on her, that goes for many other characters as well, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan etc...

 

The only ones that are essenital are Mat, Perrin and Moiraine (as per Min's viewing of Rand not winning without her)

Which brick in a wall is the most vital? If any of the people in current positions of power weren't necessary, then they wouldn't be there. If Egwene isn't Amyrlin, then Elaida would be or Romanda. In those scenarios the world loses because Rand loses.

 

How does this follow? We have nothing in the text to suggest that a helpful Amyrlin is necessary for a light-side victory. Helpful. I'm sure, but not necessary.

[Zentari]

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

Hahaha,well no.I doubt you can find many channelers with Rand's abilities , so until you do you can't say he's just a channeler with extra strength.

What you said implies that if people simply backed her up she would be his equal but that is not the case for a number of reasons most of all being that he would still manage to get his way either way.