Why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head?

[Kahsm]

Let me add this also, in VoG, Rand finally figured out that he and LTT were one and the same and what truly was the purpose of his existence. At no point he discovered that he was "stronger" than before. All he got from VoG was an understanding. Now his tav'eren power surely has gone wild and he saw that first hand(he actually knew this would happen I think). But what about One Power? When he marched on to that massive host of shadowspawn with just two maidens, what made him think he will not lose? Perhaps an old memory? He had never wielded this much power before, unaided so it be sheer suicide for him to just attack 100s of thousands of trollocs and what not. Thoughts?

 

It's a recurring pattern for him to walk into seemingly ridiculous situations since he became enlightened. Maradon, The White Tower, and meeting the boarderlanders were all inadvisable situations. I personally feel he's making himself more of a symbol of hope and light, instead of the old darkness. Part of that is to make sure people see him as unstoppable and invincible. They need to feel he cannot lose. That does not mean that he _is_ these things, as some people read it. His complete lack of concern while surrounded by Aes Sedai does not mean he could beat them all single handed, it does make them think he could though -- and that was the point.

 

And really, if this disappoints you, it shouldn't. Not having to fight them because they're too cautious actually makes him much more powerful than being in a situation where he may actually need to take them all on.

 

To the question, what made him think he wouldn't lose? What made him think the Aes Sedai wouldn't attack? What made him think the borderlanders wouldn't trap him? As Cadsuane would put it, "what must be endured, can be endured." He did it cause it was the right thing to do, and so he must do it.

 

Edit to add:

I would like to point out that Rand considered what he did at Maradon to actually be pretty stupid, because any of the forsaken could have showed up afterwards and killed him. Given the paranoid and survival-oriented mindset of the forsaken, I can't imagine any of them would take that chance.

 

That doesn't mean he wouldn't do it over again. Since the reason he went was because enlightened rand realized that he shouldn't sacrifice people (*cough* Lan *cough*)

[WhiskyJack]

^^Well if he was trying to prove that he is invincible, it would have been mighty funny if he had gotten himself killed in the process. He didn't see Aes Sedai and borderlanders as threat. I think he truly believes that all who follow light will not oppose him if shown reason. I think it was hinted in 3rd chapter of ToM (and chapters later) that he is behaving more and more like LTT and less like Rand. Yet, he is not stupid. And trying to prove tough by charging gawd knows how many shadowspawn might be considered stupid.

[MarkDiLillo]

"The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never

seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's

a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!""

 

That quote is what shows that this is not just Age of Legends channeling unleashed here. An Asha'man who has been in the Black Tower around hundreds of male channelers has never seen so many weaves at once. And all coming from the same person. He can't even track that many. That makes it pretty clear that this is above and beyond mortal channelers.

 

Also, the capitalization of Light is important there. It shows that there is something else at work.

[WhiskyJack]

^^You have convinced me! I have seen the light, no pun intended !

[MarkDiLillo]

For those of you who aren't familiar with the bible...VoG and the result is a direct parallel to Jesus transformation on the mountain. He went up to the mountain as a man, but left as the son of God if I remember correctly. Divine intervention was at work.

 

This is exactly what happened to Rand except there has been no clear explanation. I am holding my breath and waiting for some clear and concise explanation in the next book as to what happened because if the answer is divine intervention it seems reallllly stupid and basically means the shadow won this round until the creator intervened directly to fix Rand.

[Kahsm]

^^Well if he was trying to prove that he is invincible, it would have been mighty funny if he had gotten himself killed in the process. He didn't see Aes Sedai and borderlanders as threat. I think he truly believes that all who follow light will not oppose him if shown reason. I think it was hinted in 3rd chapter of ToM (and chapters later) that he is behaving more and more like LTT and less like Rand. Yet, he is not stupid. And trying to prove tough by charging gawd knows how many shadowspawn might be considered stupid.

 

It's entirely possible he truly believes he's unstoppable, at least by those factions, I should have added that. Though I'd argue that still doesn't mean it's true. He's got a lot going for him, the least of which is probably his OP. The most being Ta'veren-ness, and the simple fact that most of those people believe he's required to save the world.

 

And it's not about proving he's tough... I didn't mean it like that. Sacrificing Ituralde, which was the original plan, is wrong. Saving him was something he had to do for people to believe in him. As mentioned, he did reflect that draining himself that much was stupid. Maybe he should have stopped at the BT for more Asha'man first. Then again, it's possible he didn't expect that many shadowspawn, but still had to do what needed to be done.

 

Edit to add:

"The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never

seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's

a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!""

 

That quote is what shows that this is not just Age of Legends channeling unleashed here. An Asha'man who has been in the Black Tower around hundreds of male channelers has never seen so many weaves at once. And all coming from the same person. He can't even track that many. That makes it pretty clear that this is above and beyond mortal channelers.

 

No one is arguing Rand is your every-day channeler. He's always been good with multi-weaving, Egwene mentions it very early in the books when he lifts them up. I'm fairly certain if Naeff saw Moridin or (somehow) Lanfear channeling in a similar fashion, he'd be similarly impressed. Asha'man have their strengths here and there but they're not known for their finesse.

[WhiskyJack]

Jesus brought a dead child back to life when he was a child himself. He was always "Divine" as for as, the most popular fiction of all time, Bible is concerned.

[Jon Paul]

For those of you who aren't familiar with the bible...VoG and the result is a direct parallel to Jesus transformation on the mountain. He went up to the mountain as a man, but left as the son of God if I remember correctly. Divine intervention was at work.

 

Jesus was always the Son of God.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ok guys, I know he was always the Son of God and always performed miracles. But the Transfiguration on the mountain was a pivotal event and is considered the most important miracle shown in the bible. It was the point in time when he was no longer just a miracle worker, but was proclaimed by God to be his son. This is a clear and direct parallel to what happened with Rand on Dragonmount. Rand was always the Dragon, but he went up the mountain as the Dragon Reborn the man - he came down the mountain as the Champion of the Light who was changed.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but if this isn't explained and put into some kind of context for us to understand in the confines of the story...well then it seems like the only reason the Light won this battle was because the creator had mercy and repaired a defeated Rand. Which means that the world was never in any real danger to begin with because at anytime the Creator would have stepped in to save the day.

[Jon Paul]

and is considered the most important miracle shown in the bible.

 

Nope, the Resurrection is .

[jemron]

Yep, atonement and resurrection = greatest miracle. But... That's another topic for a different forum. I do like the thought that VoG is a parallel to the Transfiguration. Good thoughts. This has me more convinced that it was "Divine Intervention." This would certainly fit into Christian beliefs well; however, we all know that RJ borrowed just as heavily if not more heavily from other religions and cultures than he did from Christianity. It's hard to say what really happened up there, but I'm sure AMOL will cover it.

[Vermillion]

Rand said that the pattern has already insured he's going to be at the last battle as well. I doubt he could have been properly shielded or stopped.

[Kahsm]

Rand said that the pattern has already insured he's going to be at the last battle as well. I doubt he could have been properly shielded or stopped.

 

This is the same foolish logic that Brigette castrates Elayne for regarding her unborn babies and ends up screwing Elayne over. Nothing guarantees Rand will win, and nothing guarantees he'll get there prepared or able to win. Moridin dragging Rand's still-bleeding corpse over the rocks of Shayul Ghul as the battle started would not be good for the side of the Light.

 

Also would make for a pretty lame story if it did guarantee his protection in all matters.

[PhoenixUK]

 

This is the same foolish logic that Brigette castrates Elayne for regarding her unborn babies and ends up screwing Elayne over. Nothing guarantees Rand will win, and nothing guarantees he'll get there prepared or able to win. Moridin dragging Rand's still-bleeding corpse over the rocks of Shayul Ghul as the battle started would not be good for the side of the Light.

 

Also would make for a pretty lame story if it did guarantee his protection in all matters.

 

This has been discussed in the books two other times too. Either Suian or Moiraine said that the Prophecies do not guarantee that Rand will reach the Last Battle, they just point the way, so Rand cannot afford to be reckless, otherwise if he dies, the Pattern will just move on without him leading to a battle with the Dark One and no Dragon to oppose him. The other time was when the Aes sedai said that Min's visions of events after the Last Battle guarantee that the Dark One will lose, but Min and Cadsuane point out that Min's visions depend on the Pattern being intact, and if the Dark One wins the Pattern will unravel and Min's visions are meaningless.

[PhoenixUK]

it was not all cloak and dagger. They had plenty of opportunities to show their prowess on a large scale. Sammael fought Rand and his armies in Cairhien in FoH, and then later he fought Rand's armies in Illian in CoS. Rahvin fought Rand and his attack force in FoH. Most of the Forsaken fought at the cleansing. None of them showed anything even remotely close to Rand's abilities in Maradon. If they could they would have. IMO Rand is obviously hugely increased in his power post VoG and no amount of "finesse in the weaving" could explain that.

 

the battle in Shadar Logoth kinda annoyed me. I know the Forsaken were completely outnumbered by several circles of men and women armed with angreal AND Callandor and had Alivia as well, but even so, they are supposed to be the creme de la creme of the 2nd Age. Surely they should have weaves they can do that can make up for their lack of firepower? They're good at things like subtle compulsion, but they don't seem to know any advanced abilities at all really.

[Wolf505]

People seem to forget, Rand fully remembers being Lews Therin, but he also remembers parts of his other lives. From Veins of Gold:

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stratching to infinity.

 

He says later that he fully remembers his life as Lews Therin like it was a dream, but he only remembers bits and pieces from his other lives. I assume much like the Wise Ones remember bits and pieces from their future after travelling through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean. In any case, he remembers things from other lives as well. There is nothing to indicate Lews Therin had any recollection of his previous lives, or that he even HAD previous lives. After all, several of the Forsaken I seem to recall being skeptical of the Dragon being reborn at all since it had never happened that way before that they had ever heard- one man being prophesied to be reborn for a specific purpose. (Don't recall exactly where that was said, but it had to be during one of the Forsaken get togethers).

 

My point is, there is every indication that not only is Rand now more powerful then LTT ever was, but that the state he is currently in (posessing the knowledge and experience of his previous incarnations) is completely unprecidented as far as anyone knows.

[MarkDiLillo]

People seem to forget, Rand fully remembers being Lews Therin, but he also remembers parts of his other lives. From Veins of Gold:

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stratching to infinity.

 

He says later that he fully remembers his life as Lews Therin like it was a dream, but he only remembers bits and pieces from his other lives. I assume much like the Wise Ones remember bits and pieces from their future after travelling through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean. In any case, he remembers things from other lives as well. There is nothing to indicate Lews Therin had any recollection of his previous lives, or that he even HAD previous lives. After all, several of the Forsaken I seem to recall being skeptical of the Dragon being reborn at all since it had never happened that way before that they had ever heard- one man being prophesied to be reborn for a specific purpose. (Don't recall exactly where that was said, but it had to be during one of the Forsaken get togethers).

 

My point is, there is every indication that not only is Rand now more powerful then LTT ever was, but that the state he is currently in (posessing the knowledge and experience of his previous incarnations) is completely unprecidented as far as anyone knows.

 

The pen may be mightier than the sword, but knowledge does not automatically mean you can use as much OP as an army by yourself.

[herid]

People seem to forget, Rand fully remembers being Lews Therin, but he also remembers parts of his other lives. From Veins of Gold:

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stratching to infinity.

 

He says later that he fully remembers his life as Lews Therin like it was a dream, but he only remembers bits and pieces from his other lives.

I don't remember him saying or thinking that. Have a quote? I seem to remember seeing a BS quote that Rand only had access to memories of his lives before LTT in VoG and lost them thereafter. I can't find a reference though so it might be my memory playing tricks on me.

[Wolf505]

People seem to forget, Rand fully remembers being Lews Therin, but he also remembers parts of his other lives. From Veins of Gold:

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stratching to infinity.

 

He says later that he fully remembers his life as Lews Therin like it was a dream, but he only remembers bits and pieces from his other lives.

I don't remember him saying or thinking that. Have a quote? I seem to remember seeing a BS quote that Rand only had access to memories of his lives before LTT in VoG and lost them thereafter. I can't find a reference though so it might be my memory playing tricks on me.

I seem to remember reading it, but couldn't find a specific quote. The closest I could find was from the end of Apples First:

 

"Not lost? Son, that pathway only leads up the slopes of Dragonmount. The area's been hunted clean, if you were hoping to find some game. There's nothing back there of use."

 

"I wouldn't say that," the stranger said, glancing over his shoulder. "There are always things of use around, if you look closely enough. You can't stare at them too long. To learn, but not be overwhelmed, that is the balance."

 

Now, I suppose that could be taken multiple ways, but given the context I presumed it referred to the events of VoG and his seeing all his former lives laid out. Of course, later he tells Min about how he can remember Lews Therin's life like it was his own, and constantly refers to things he did as Lews Therin as things he did himself (see the Rand Sedai incident, and his conversation with Egwene where he talks about the way HE sealed the bore before) so clearly the quote above is not referring to that since he apparently has all of LTT's memories intact.

 

My point in this line of thought is, that if he's already done something unprecidented in seeing all his former incarnations and remembering things from them (even if it's only the LTT incarnation), then clearly he's above and beyond anyone in the 2nd or 3rd in one regard already. It's not much of a stretch to believe that his channeling abilities could also be far above what's considered possible. Given what happened at Maradon, it only backs up this theory.

[herid]

People seem to forget, Rand fully remembers being Lews Therin, but he also remembers parts of his other lives. From Veins of Gold:

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stratching to infinity.

 

He says later that he fully remembers his life as Lews Therin like it was a dream, but he only remembers bits and pieces from his other lives.

I don't remember him saying or thinking that. Have a quote? I seem to remember seeing a BS quote that Rand only had access to memories of his lives before LTT in VoG and lost them thereafter. I can't find a reference though so it might be my memory playing tricks on me.

I seem to remember reading it, but couldn't find a specific quote. The closest I could find was from the end of Apples First:

 

"Not lost? Son, that pathway only leads up the slopes of Dragonmount. The area's been hunted clean, if you were hoping to find some game. There's nothing back there of use."

 

"I wouldn't say that," the stranger said, glancing over his shoulder. "There are always things of use around, if you look closely enough. You can't stare at them too long. To learn, but not be overwhelmed, that is the balance."

 

Now, I suppose that could be taken multiple ways,

I don't see any way to read it as you do. There is nothing in that quote indicating that Rand still remembers anything of his past lives before LT.

but given the context I presumed it referred to the events of VoG and his seeing all his former lives laid out. Of course, later he tells Min about how he can remember Lews Therin's life like it was his own, and constantly refers to things he did as Lews Therin as things he did himself (see the Rand Sedai incident, and his conversation with Egwene where he talks about the way HE sealed the bore before) so clearly the quote above is not referring to that since he apparently has all of LTT's memories intact.

 

My point in this line of thought is, that if he's already done something unprecidented in seeing all his former incarnations and remembering things from them (even if it's only the LTT incarnation), then clearly he's above and beyond anyone in the 2nd or 3rd in one regard already. It's not much of a stretch to believe that his channeling abilities could also be far above what's considered possible. Given what happened at Maradon, it only backs up this theory.

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

[Wolf505]

I didn't mean to imply that his memory of his past lives is what increased his channeling ability. What I meant was, he's already done one thing that nobody in the 2nd or 3rd Ages have done in having full access to past life memories (completely integrated them with his own in the case of his LTT memories). It doesn't seem like a stretch to say that something else happened to him during his transformation that increased his chanelling abilities to unheard of levels. One thing didn't necessarily cause the other, but both seem to have come about at the same time. Given that we know chanelling ability is somehow linked to the soul (Aran'gar using Saidin instead of Saidar for example) it's possible that the two things are linked somehow, but at this point that's pure speculation.

[WhiskyJack]

People seem to forget, Rand fully remembers being Lews Therin, but he also remembers parts of his other lives. From Veins of Gold:

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stratching to infinity.

 

He says later that he fully remembers his life as Lews Therin like it was a dream, but he only remembers bits and pieces from his other lives.

I don't remember him saying or thinking that. Have a quote? I seem to remember seeing a BS quote that Rand only had access to memories of his lives before LTT in VoG and lost them thereafter. I can't find a reference though so it might be my memory playing tricks on me.

I seem to remember reading it, but couldn't find a specific quote. The closest I could find was from the end of Apples First:

 

"Not lost? Son, that pathway only leads up the slopes of Dragonmount. The area's been hunted clean, if you were hoping to find some game. There's nothing back there of use."

 

"I wouldn't say that," the stranger said, glancing over his shoulder. "There are always things of use around, if you look closely enough. You can't stare at them too long. To learn, but not be overwhelmed, that is the balance."

 

Now, I suppose that could be taken multiple ways,

I don't see any way to read it as you do. There is nothing in that quote indicating that Rand still remembers anything of his past lives before LT.

but given the context I presumed it referred to the events of VoG and his seeing all his former lives laid out. Of course, later he tells Min about how he can remember Lews Therin's life like it was his own, and constantly refers to things he did as Lews Therin as things he did himself (see the Rand Sedai incident, and his conversation with Egwene where he talks about the way HE sealed the bore before) so clearly the quote above is not referring to that since he apparently has all of LTT's memories intact.

 

My point in this line of thought is, that if he's already done something unprecidented in seeing all his former incarnations and remembering things from them (even if it's only the LTT incarnation), then clearly he's above and beyond anyone in the 2nd or 3rd in one regard already. It's not much of a stretch to believe that his channeling abilities could also be far above what's considered possible. Given what happened at Maradon, it only backs up this theory.

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

[herid]

 

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

my mistake, I was quoting from memory. It was told from Ituralde's POV. This hardly changes my point though.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

-ToM, Ch 32

[Kahsm]

 

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

my mistake, I was quoting from memory. It was told from Ituralde's POV. This hardly changes my point though.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

-ToM, Ch 32

 

Naeff just learnt to channel in the past year? He doesn't have LTT past memories, he's not a Forsaken. Of course he's dumbfounded to see Age of Legends channeling style, skill, and power. If Rand can impress Moridin or Mazrim Taim, that'd be another story.

 

He's good, very good. No one doubts that. The question was, "why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head". Does anyone believe that still? In tSR chapter 7, he lifts and shields Egwene and Elyane, lifts various other objects, and sets a fires and extinguishes them all at the same time. No, that's not nearly the same scale as described at Maradon, but that when he had really just started channeling. I read that to suggest he'd be able to do things just like Maradon when he reached his potential.

 

Also, Lanfear v2.0 beating Alivia because "She knows A LOT more about the power" (said RJ) goes to show how much knowledge counts over power. Doesn't mean he "taps directly into the creator" or whatever people suggest.

[herid]

 

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

my mistake, I was quoting from memory. It was told from Ituralde's POV. This hardly changes my point though.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

-ToM, Ch 32

 

Naeff just learnt to channel in the past year? He doesn't have LTT past memories, he's not a Forsaken. Of course he's dumbfounded to see Age of Legends channeling style, skill, and power. If Rand can impress Moridin or Mazrim Taim, that'd be another story.

 

He's good, very good. No one doubts that. The question was, "why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head". Does anyone believe that still? In tSR chapter 7, he lifts and shields Egwene and Elyane, lifts various other objects, and sets a fires and extinguishes them all at the same time. No, that's not nearly the same scale as described at Maradon, but that when he had really just started channeling. I read that to suggest he'd be able to do things just like Maradon when he reached his potential.

 

I obviously disagree. I don't wish to debate it however with people who are completely set in their opinions such as yourself or Wiskyjack. I've made that mistake in the past and it leads exactly nowhere except to spamming the boards repeating the same points over and over and personal insults. As they say, we'll have to agree to disagree. We'll see who is right after aMoL comes out.

 

But I also don't believe that RJ (or maybe it was BS) turned the channeling system on its head. I fully expect for there to be a reasonable explanation for Rand's increased ability based on the existing rules of the WoT universe.