Perrin and Rand's Wound Foreshadowing? (ToM Spoilers)

[NetSlider]

Something that came to my attention and I begun to wonder.

 

Perrin's wound that he received in TAR and was healed still gave him pause afterwards. So I begun thinking back to tGH and how Rand and Ishy fought in the sky. We know that they can not fly so it is reasonable to think that their battle has something to do with TAR via The Horn connection. I know that I'm grasping in the dark on this, but I just figured to point it out. Another element that might be pointing towards TAR significance (with Lanfear's reappearance in the center of a stage) and connection to Rand's never-healing wound. More and more I think that the LB will be somehow centered in TAR (or at least TAR will be very, very prominent in it; after all, TAR seems to be one constant within all the "parallel" worlds.)

 

In any event, it's interesting that Perrin's healed wound was mentioned, smells very fishy (as in foreshadowing, fishy).

[Byzantine279]

The battle in the sky was "because the pattern wove it that way" We don't really know why, the reason that Rand's wound won't heal seems to be because Ishamael left behind True Power of some sort in the wound to prevent it from healing.

[NetSlider]

The battle in the sky was "because the pattern wove it that way" We don't really know why, the reason that Rand's wound won't heal seems to be because Ishamael left behind True Power of some sort in the wound to prevent it from healing.

 

I've never heard of "because the pattern wove it that way" explanation before (is this something that RJ or someone else explained it). In WoT everything has an explanation in WoT "logic" so to me an answer of "because" is not good enough. That's why I'm linking TAR to it as it seems logical considering the Horn was present.

 

As far as Rand's wound we don't know why it won't heal, that's why I'm saying that Perrin's wound might be another clue to it.

 

I'm not trying to come through as arrogant, but your "definite" answers are not very convincing.

[herid]

Something that came to my attention and I begun to wonder.

 

Perrin's wound that he received in TAR and was healed still gave him pause afterwards.

 

I did wonder about this too but I don't think I buy your idea (it's an interesting one to be sure). Perrin has been hurt in TAR a number of times, for example, when saving Faile at the end of TDR. He healed from those wounds with no issues. Also, when Sheriam, Morvrin and co get trapped in a nightmare in TAR (LoC, Ch 7) they all get injured and then are successfully healed in the waking world, apparently, with no side effects (at least none are ever mentioned). I agree with Torn Shadow that the wound Rand got at Falme is unhealable because of TP that Ishy used. The one that he got from Fain's dagger is unhealable too and that's unrelated to TAR for sure. yet, several people healing Rand described the wounds as similar but opposite. Rand used that idea when cleansing saidin too.

So I begun thinking back to tGH and how Rand and Ishy fought in the sky. We know that they can not fly so it is reasonable to think that their battle has something to do with TAR via The Horn connection. I know that I'm grasping in the dark on this, but I just figured to point it out. Another element that might be pointing towards TAR significance (with Lanfear's reappearance in the center of a stage) and connection to Rand's never-healing wound. More and more I think that the LB will be somehow centered in TAR (or at least TAR will be very, very prominent in it; after all, TAR seems to be one constant within all the "parallel" worlds.)

 

In any event, it's interesting that Perrin's healed wound was mentioned, smells very fishy (as in foreshadowing, fishy).

I'm sure that TAR will play a big role in the LB, but I don't think Perrin's wound is a foreshadowing of that.

[Hael Me]

The three Ta'veren from The Two Rivers all have wounds that won't heal now: Rand has lost a hand, like the Norse god Tyr, and has that Ishamael and Fain inflicted wound in his side, like Jesus. Mat has lost an eye, like Odin. And now Perrin has a wounded leg, like many mythical deities. The one that springs to mind first is the Roman God Vulcan:

 

"Through Vulcans identification with the Hephaestus of Greek mythology, he came to be considered as the manufacturer of art, arms, iron, jewellery and armor for various gods and heroes, including the thunderbolts of Jupiter. He was the son of Jupiter and Juno, and husband of Maia and Venus. His smithy was believed to be situated underneath Mount Etna in Sicily.

 

As the son of Jupiter, the king of the gods, and Juno, the queen of the gods, Vulcan should have been quite handsome, but, baby Vulcan was small and ugly with a red, bawling face. Juno was so horrified that she hurled the tiny baby off the top of Mount Olympus.

 

Vulcan fell down for a day and a night, landing in the sea. Unfortunately, one of his legs broke as he hit the water, and never developed properly."

 

The question arises: Was Perrin hideous as a child? :-) And for his own sake, let's not hope the authors shaped his character after the Greek blacksmith God, Hephaestus, who was lame. Well, Perrin has been lame in a number of books, but when he finally has found his stride, I hope Mr Sanderson doesn't cripple him. Some might argue that Faile already has done that deed, though :-)

[herid]

The three Ta'veren from The Two Rivers all have wounds that won't heal now: Rand has lost a hand, like the Norse god Tyr, and has that Ishamael and Fain inflicted wound in his side, like Jesus. Mat has lost an eye, like Odin. And now Perrin has a wounded leg, like many mythical deities. The one that springs to mind first is the Roman God Vulcan:

 

"Through Vulcans identification with the Hephaestus of Greek mythology, he came to be considered as the manufacturer of art, arms, iron, jewellery and armor for various gods and heroes, including the thunderbolts of Jupiter. He was the son of Jupiter and Juno, and husband of Maia and Venus. His smithy was believed to be situated underneath Mount Etna in Sicily.

 

As the son of Jupiter, the king of the gods, and Juno, the queen of the gods, Vulcan should have been quite handsome, but, baby Vulcan was small and ugly with a red, bawling face. Juno was so horrified that she hurled the tiny baby off the top of Mount Olympus.

 

Vulcan fell down for a day and a night, landing in the sea. Unfortunately, one of his legs broke as he hit the water, and never developed properly."

 

The question arises: Was Perrin hideous as a child? :-) And for his own sake, let's not hope the authors shaped his character after the Greek blacksmith God, Hephaestus, who was lame. Well, Perrin has been lame in a number of books, but when he finally has found his stride, I hope Mr Sanderson doesn't cripple him. Some might argue that Faile already has done that deed, though :-)

That's a really cool idea! You may have something there. Perrin was actually largely based on the slavic thundergod Perun and to a lesser extent on the Norse thundergod Thor. BS mentioned that on twitter. They are somewhat similar to Vulcan so there may be a connection (Perun is a blacksmith making weapons too). I wrote up a blog post about Perrin-Perun parallels. I don't think I've heard of Perun ever injuring his leg but I'll have to look that up.

EDIT: A very quick search revealed that Perun was also wounded in his leg by his arch-enemy according to some legends. That article also connects the episode to a number of other gods wounded in a leg as you suggested.

[Hael Me]

Really interesting blog post, Mr Fel! Thanks, I didn't know much about Slavic Myths before I read it, but I can clearly see that Mr Jordan based much of Perrin's character on this Perun. Sometimes I think WoT is just one big puzzle, where all the pieces fit perfectly together. I don't know how RJ did it, but it never ceases to amaze me...

[NetSlider]

Something that came to my attention and I begun to wonder.

 

Perrin's wound that he received in TAR and was healed still gave him pause afterwards.

 

I did wonder about this too but I don't think I buy your idea (it's an interesting one to be sure). Perrin has been hurt in TAR a number of times, for example, when saving Faile at the end of TDR. He healed from those wounds with no issues. Also, when Sheriam, Morvrin and co get trapped in a nightmare in TAR (LoC, Ch 7) they all get injured and then are successfully healed in the waking world, apparently, with no side effects (at least none are ever mentioned). I agree with Torn Shadow that the wound Rand got at Falme is unhealable because of TP that Ishy used. The one that he got from Fain's dagger is unhealable too and that's unrelated to TAR for sure. yet, several people healing Rand described the wounds as similar but opposite. Rand used that idea when cleansing saidin too.

So I begun thinking back to tGH and how Rand and Ishy fought in the sky. We know that they can not fly so it is reasonable to think that their battle has something to do with TAR via The Horn connection. I know that I'm grasping in the dark on this, but I just figured to point it out. Another element that might be pointing towards TAR significance (with Lanfear's reappearance in the center of a stage) and connection to Rand's never-healing wound. More and more I think that the LB will be somehow centered in TAR (or at least TAR will be very, very prominent in it; after all, TAR seems to be one constant within all the "parallel" worlds.)

 

In any event, it's interesting that Perrin's healed wound was mentioned, smells very fishy (as in foreshadowing, fishy).

I'm sure that TAR will play a big role in the LB, but I don't think Perrin's wound is a foreshadowing of that.

 

And I thought the same thing, that this is not the first time someone was wounded in TAR, but this is one of the times that someone was wounded in TAR by a person who was in TAR in flesh (if it makes any sense). The only difference that I can think of is that before Perrin was wounded by TAR and not by someone who was there wholly. This also points out to the Wise Ones' warning. There might be some connection in this difference. And perhaps Rand's wound could not be healed not only b/c he was in flesh in the TAR but his "thread" was actually connected to the heroes of the horn at that point as their fight was tied with his fight (again, connection via TAR but a connection than never before nor after happed).

[LemonPastie]

Have I missed Perrin's wound entirely? can someone give me a brief outline please?

[Majsju]

The battle in the sky was "because the pattern wove it that way" We don't really know why, the reason that Rand's wound won't heal seems to be because Ishamael left behind True Power of some sort in the wound to prevent it from healing.

 

I've never heard of "because the pattern wove it that way" explanation before (is this something that RJ or someone else explained it). In WoT everything has an explanation in WoT "logic" so to me an answer of "because" is not good enough. That's why I'm linking TAR to it as it seems logical considering the Horn was present.

 

As far as Rand's wound we don't know why it won't heal, that's why I'm saying that Perrin's wound might be another clue to it.

 

I'm not trying to come through as arrogant, but your "definite" answers are not very convincing.

 

DragonCon 2005,

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?<br style="min-width: 0px; ">

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

[herid]

Have I missed Perrin's wound entirely? can someone give me a brief outline please?

Slayer got him in the leg with an arrow during their big fight in TAR in ToM. That wound seemed to not have been healed properly. I assume the OP meant this passage

Perrin turned as the portal closed. As he stepped, he felt a faint throbbing from his leg, where Slayer's arrow had hit him. He had been Healed of

that wound, and from what he'd been able to tell, the Healing had been complete. There was no injury. But his leg . . . it felt like it could remember the wound anyway. It was like a shadow, very faint, almost unnoticeable.

-ToM, Ch53

At least that's the one I was thinking of.

 

 

 

Something that came to my attention and I begun to wonder.

 

Perrin's wound that he received in TAR and was healed still gave him pause afterwards.

 

I did wonder about this too but I don't think I buy your idea (it's an interesting one to be sure). Perrin has been hurt in TAR a number of times, for example, when saving Faile at the end of TDR. He healed from those wounds with no issues. Also, when Sheriam, Morvrin and co get trapped in a nightmare in TAR (LoC, Ch 7) they all get injured and then are successfully healed in the waking world, apparently, with no side effects (at least none are ever mentioned). I agree with Torn Shadow that the wound Rand got at Falme is unhealable because of TP that Ishy used. The one that he got from Fain's dagger is unhealable too and that's unrelated to TAR for sure. yet, several people healing Rand described the wounds as similar but opposite. Rand used that idea when cleansing saidin too.

So I begun thinking back to tGH and how Rand and Ishy fought in the sky. We know that they can not fly so it is reasonable to think that their battle has something to do with TAR via The Horn connection. I know that I'm grasping in the dark on this, but I just figured to point it out. Another element that might be pointing towards TAR significance (with Lanfear's reappearance in the center of a stage) and connection to Rand's never-healing wound. More and more I think that the LB will be somehow centered in TAR (or at least TAR will be very, very prominent in it; after all, TAR seems to be one constant within all the "parallel" worlds.)

 

In any event, it's interesting that Perrin's healed wound was mentioned, smells very fishy (as in foreshadowing, fishy).

I'm sure that TAR will play a big role in the LB, but I don't think Perrin's wound is a foreshadowing of that.

 

And I thought the same thing, that this is not the first time someone was wounded in TAR, but this is one of the times that someone was wounded in TAR by a person who was in TAR in flesh (if it makes any sense). The only difference that I can think of is that before Perrin was wounded by TAR and not by someone who was there wholly.

 

I don't see why it should matter. Especially given that Slayer arrows were TAR creations and not something he brought there from the real world.

Also, Slayer got Perrin across his chest, not just in the leg in that fight. That wound appears to have been healed correctly. At least Perrin never mentioned it afterward.

 

Besides, as rare as it happened, there was one instance of somebody being wounded by a person in the flesh in TAR and then healed successfully. Nynaeve healed Rand's wounds that he got while fighting Rahvin in TAR when both Rand and Rahvin were there in the flesh. She couldn't heal the Falme wound (she tried) but she did heal all the new ones. Lastly, I don't know if you can consider Slayer as being in TAR in the flesh. Perhaps he is but that would be a subject for a separate debate. But as I said, I don't believe that it matters.

[Pandemonium]

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch

[NetSlider]

The battle in the sky was "because the pattern wove it that way" We don't really know why, the reason that Rand's wound won't heal seems to be because Ishamael left behind True Power of some sort in the wound to prevent it from healing.

 

I've never heard of "because the pattern wove it that way" explanation before (is this something that RJ or someone else explained it). In WoT everything has an explanation in WoT "logic" so to me an answer of "because" is not good enough. That's why I'm linking TAR to it as it seems logical considering the Horn was present.

 

As far as Rand's wound we don't know why it won't heal, that's why I'm saying that Perrin's wound might be another clue to it.

 

I'm not trying to come through as arrogant, but your "definite" answers are not very convincing.

 

DragonCon 2005,

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?<br style="min-width: 0px; ">

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

 

Ah, I stand humbled and so my apologies. The Wheel just made it its way still seems a bit of a weird answer. Brings out all kind of questions, such as did the Wheel also arrange Rand on the top of DM being within a second of destroying everything. Maybe it's a bad example but it just brings out the whole free will vs. the Wheel design (not just taveren element) and at the end leads to a question of "what's the point of trying if the wheel seems to arrange everything?" I guess that's how Ishy turned to the Shadow, with questions like these

 

"I don't see why it should matter. Especially given that Slayer arrows were TAR creations and not something he brought there from the real world.Also, Slayer got Perrin across his chest, not just in the leg in that fight. That wound appears to have been healed correctly. At least Perrin never mentioned it afterward.

 

Besides, as rare as it happened, there was one instance of somebody being wounded by a person in the flesh in TAR and then healed successfully. Nynaeve healed Rand's wounds that he got while fighting Rahvin in TAR when both Rand and Rahvin were there in the flesh. She couldn't heal the Falme wound (she tried) but she did heal all the new ones. Lastly, I don't know if you can consider Slayer as being in TAR in the flesh. Perhaps he is but that would be a subject for a separate debate. But as I said, I don't believe that it matters."

 

Good point, Herid. Well, there goes my crazy idea out the window.

[Thor]

Well the 3 ta'veren would make a great set of pirates: peg leg, hook hand, and eye patch

 

YAAAARGGHHHHH.

 

But I actually thought it's Perrin's own doing for 'remembering' the wound so to speak.

[yoniy0]

Besides, as rare as it happened, there was one instance of somebody being wounded by a person in the flesh in TAR and then healed successfully. Nynaeve healed Rand's wounds that he got while fighting Rahvin in TAR when both Rand and Rahvin were there in the flesh.

Exactly. Rand was there in the flesh, and Nynaeve used saidar to Heal him. It wasn't a TAR healing. She might as well have Healed him in the waking world.

[Hyronimus]

I do like the idea that it foreshadows something. looking at the wounds so far:

 

Mat, his ability as it effects the possible weavings of fate to be in his favour are now fully realised as a result of his injury.

 

Rand, the literal blindness that foreshadowed the metaphorical blindness he had to over come, the hand which seems to have drawn his attention from using the sword in battle (IMO). The double wounds that lead to the cleansing of saidin and with which we are still not done.

 

Pirrin, a wound that might effect his abilities in 'the real world' and so cause his abilities in the dream to be more important. I'll make a leap and predict that his in fact taken out in some way so that he participates in the last last battle in TAR. There is a passage in ToM when he tries to act on the real world as if in TAR before pulling himself up short.

 

Perhaps his hammer has uses better realised in TAR? Destroying dreamspikes?

 

It has been noted that the pit of doom can't be reached in TAR, or that it has qualities similar to TAR.

personally I've the opinion that TAR and the real world will 'merge' in some way during the sealing. Pirrin would only need to participate in TAR if so, i also think leading the wolves in TAR would be a more impressive role for the wolves than as extra ground troops.

 

it's the vibe.

[LemonPastie]

What if Perrin turns up at Shayol Ghul and using his uber TAR abilities 'imagines' the Dark one doesn't exist - BAM end of book.

[yoniy0]

What if Perrin turns up at Shayol Ghul and using his uber TAR abilities 'imagines' the Dark one doesn't exist - BAM end of book.

This one even has foreshadowing - it was Perrin that started Egwene on the right track to breaking a Forsaken's mind. If Egwene could've out-TAR-ed Mesaana, surely Perrin can the DO, right? If push comes to shove, he can always find one of those nightmares where Rand is 30 feet tall; the DO will surely suffer a heart-attack upon seeing that.

[Hyronimus]

Ha! Though thinking about it, perhaps it's just a little foreshadowing that Pirrin will solve self healing in Tar, something slayer mentions during their battle(don't have the page, but it's right before the nightmare trap).

 

Could be important right before he 'takes him out'.