Well, I guess that I finally FOUND IT!!! ... (The MOMENT that...)

[randsc]

If she were a non-channeling male, Egwene would have made an outstanding Whitecloak. If she were a non-channeling female, an outstanding Seanchan blood.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I dont hate her actions or her choices. I just hate the way she tries and succeeds to be Rands female equivalent. Its not that I think he shouldnt have one, its the way SHE does it. I mean Rand has the whole mass determination thing and has endured more pain than one can imagine. Egwenes response? Getting beaten by Aiel so she could stand being beaten by Elaida. Its too obvious, she tries to be Ta'veren, and somehow succeeds without actually being one.

 

You could say its Rands Ta'veren ta'marallelogram but Im not interested!

 

Rand: I have past life knowledge, you have seen it. I must break the Seals that I made.

Egwene: Been around for five minutes, get loads of praise for stuff anyone could do. Havent a clue about any of this. You shouldnt do it because I say so.

 

I cant wait til she is dead.

 

You summed it up perfectly for me. It's not Egwene that is the main problem (infuriating though she is ) , it's her ridiculously written arc.

 

I wouldn't like her to die and become even more important (because it would have to be a heroic death, we know it). I would like her stuck in the WT for years, doing all the necessary paperwork and from time to time spanking an occasional Accepted - for old times' sake .

 

If she were a non-channeling male, Egwene would have made an outstanding Whitecloak. If she were a non-channeling female, an outstanding Seanchan blood.

 

Very true. She's a perfect chameleonic neophyte after all.

[Zhipp]

I started to despise her in TDR, but my hatred for her was slowly transferred to Rand for books 4-5. I was to busy hating on Rand to pay much attention to her her cruel treatment of Nyneave in T'A'R. It actually wasn't until after I finished the book that I realized how bad that was. But, after she became Amyrlin, my hatred for her escalated, and she rose up next to Rand again. She then surpassed him at some point, not sure when, to become my most hated character...again. Seriously, what is it about power that makes these protagonists behave like total douchebags. Jeez. So yeah, I think I'll have to say my hatred for her started in book 6, and reached it's peak in book 13. I didn't hate Egwene in books 11-12(not as much, anyway.), but I did hate on Jordan/Sanderson for doing such a piss poor job writing her arc in those books.

[randsc]

This is the right thread.

 

Egwene knows that Warders can be helped through the Warder "rage" that consumes them when their Aes Sedai dies. But when she executes the BA in Salidar, the only thought she spares their Warders is to hope that some of them can be induced to spend that range dying in the Blight.

 

Nynaeve wouldn't think that way, and that is why people like Nynaeve better. It has nothing to do with "bowing down to Rand" or any of the pathetic nonesense you see peddled here periodically.

 

That is all, carry on.

[Smittyphi]

Egwene knows that Warders can be helped through the Warder "rage" that consumes them when their Aes Sedai dies.

 

Missed this part. How is that possible?

[randsc]

Egwene knows that Warders can be helped through the Warder "rage" that consumes them when their Aes Sedai dies.

 

Missed this part. How is that possible?

 

There are apparently various approaches. While I don't necessarily expect our little country girl to endorse Myrelle's approach, the fact remains that there are successes. They all involve the Warder being quickly bonded to another Aes Sedai, and the text mentions that because there is a cost to Aes Sedai when such an attempt fails, few are willing to attempt it. (An aside: Think for a moment about what that fact says about Aes Sedai as a group, not just Egwene. Reprehensible organization of horrible people.)

 

But whatever approach is taken, Egwene knows it is possible, and the thought of having some of her Aes Sedai try it never even occurs to her.

 

Myrelle herself, of course, is the least reprehensible:

 

“Mother, you have to understand why I did it, why we did it.” The frantic edge to her voice was fit for confronting half the Forsaken, and her in her shift. “Not just because Moiraine asked, not just because she was my friend. I hate letting them die. I hate it! The bargain we make is hard on us, sometimes, but harder on them. You must understand. You must!”

 

 

But the general tecniques are well known, apprently:

 

“I see you are working him hard,” Egwene said. That was part of the method for saving a Warder. Few sisters were willing to make the attempt, given the rate of failure, and the cost of it to themselves. Keeping him from risks was another. And bonding him again; that was the first step. Without doubt Myrelle had taken care of that little detail. Poor Nynaeve. She might well strangle Myrelle, when she learned. Then again, she might countenance anything that kept Lan alive. Maybe. For Lan’s part, he deserved the worst he received, letting himself be bonded by another woman when he knew Nynaeve was pining for him.

 

As for Myrelle's own approach:

 

Egwene sighed in spite of herself. Some sisters believed there was one more part of saving a Warder whose bond was broken by death; putting him into the arms—into the bed—of a woman. No man could focus on death then, the belief ran. Myrelle, it seemed, had taken care of that herself, too. At least she had not actually married him, not if she meant to pass him on. It would be just as well if Nynaeve never found out.

[TheBeerPatriot]

I don't get the hate.

 

Here's a little story....

 

I used to play softball with a guy who used to play professional baseball for the Pirates. He was just about the cockiest guy I ever played on a team with. Trouble is, he was also every bit as good as he talked himself up to be. He claimed he could make me a better hitter if I just listened to what he said I needed to change. Now, I was a better-than-average player myself at the time, and I had the requisite ego that goes along with being successful at sports. It was very difficult to get past his bombast and accept that he really DID have the ability and knowledge he claimed to have--especially since he was about 7-8 years younger than me at the time. Once I let myself accept his superiority in hitting, he helped me tremendously. Pride pricked. Ego flattened. Swing vastly improved.

 

It ain't braggin' if it's the truth.

 

Yeah...but he played for the Pirates ;) Kidding. It's a good analogy you make to depict Egwene's behavior from TSR onwards. While I do get irritated with her character at times, I think her accomplishments have outshone any of her character flaws.

[Deviations]

Nynaeve has comic flaws (as does Mat). Eggy has flaws - no comedy.

 

In Egwene's case take the lack of comedy (C-), the lack of any perspective of fairness (F-), and her infatuation with that tool Gwayne (G-) and you get C-*F-*G- = Dislike cubed.

[Smittyphi]

@Randsc #31

 

I'm a little confused. I thought that the moment the bond broke, somehow, Moiraine and Myrelle made it so that he was instantly bonded to Myrelle. How else would he know where she was when Lan told Rand he had to go and knew WHERE to go?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Myrelle herself, of course, is the least reprehensible:

 

“Mother, you have to understand why I did it, why we did it.” The frantic edge to her voice was fit for confronting half the Forsaken, and her in her shift. “Not just because Moiraine asked, not just because she was my friend. I hate letting them die. I hate it! The bargain we make is hard on us, sometimes, but harder on them. You must understand. You must!”

 

 

 

While I generally agree about Myrelle, I honestly can't see how the quote you provided illustrates her reprehensibility. I would think that it actually shows her in a better light.

 

But it's possible I don't see something obvious... Myrelle, as most Aes Sedai, treated Warders instrumentally and didn't respect Lan's freedom of choice, but the quote shows that she actually cared for the Warders.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

@Randsc #31

 

I'm a little confused. I thought that the moment the bond broke, somehow, Moiraine and Myrelle made it so that he was instantly bonded to Myrelle. How else would he know where she was when Lan told Rand he had to go and knew WHERE to go?

Yes, the bond transferred automatically. But Egwene didn't know that. She assumed it was Myrelle acted on her own.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Nynaeve has comic flaws (as does Mat). Eggy has flaws - no comedy.

 

In Egwene's case take the lack of comedy (C-), the lack of any perspective of fairness (F-), and her infatuation with that tool Gwayne (G-) and you get C-*F-*G- = Dislike cubed.

 

I think the problem is that Egwene doesn't have any flaws. She certainly has character traits which we may dislike, but they are all author approved. Whenever she says or does something we almost always have someone who tells us how right she was and in the few cases we don't she gets that endorsement later on. By now she has had just about every woman channeler in the series who ever met her serve in the role of telling us how wonderful she is.

[Elan Tedronai]

LOL another egwene bashing thread. when AMOL is done and dusted, egwene will be the most powerful person in all of randland (Disregarding logain) Not your lord dragon,not your 'legendary' nynaeve, your bootlicker moraine, not your grandma cadsuane, the aiel wise ones, the crazy ass woman married to mat, the sea folk etc etc

 

Egwene al vere. The sooner you accept her dominance the better really. The last one who didnt got her mind broken in half.

 

We all do love to bash Egwene... maybe there is a reason for it. I don´t like how Egwene´s character is build up, she may have done some great things as Amyrlin (rooting out the Black Ajah, and unifying the Tower... if that can be called a good thing) but that doesn´t balance out her other actions, her lack of introspect and self-analysis, her hypocritical stand, and her view that people are no more then goals to further her agenda. I don´t know if she will be the most powerful in Randland, disregarding Logain of course. (And Logain would whip her bottom =)) If she will, I´ll still dislike her, cause I doubt she would have changed.

And my point is, it doesn´t matter if she is powerful, if that is the kind of person she is then I simply don´t care.

 

If Egwene is the most powerful after AMOL then fine, but she isn´t yet so I don´t see why that would be an argument. If she ISN´T the most powerful after AMOL then what will you say?

And the argument about her kicking Mesaana is a noargument. So what... Rand has faced off other Forsaken in the series. Proves nothing.

 

 

heh people hate egwene so much that they are starting to believe the tower being reunified may or may not be a good thing. Seriously. It seems that people have some sort of personal resentment towards her. Her sudden rise to power, the taking no prisoner attitude, refusal to bend to anyone. I must admit though i sometimes find it amusing. I actually kinda respect those posters who actually despise her. At least there is no sugar coating with them lot. It's in your face and that is that.

 

however those other posters who try to hide their egwene hate behind the thin veneer of neutrality is what irks me the most. As if they are running some sort of competition to be the most logical, fair, neutral poster.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Nynaeve has comic flaws (as does Mat). Eggy has flaws - no comedy.

 

In Egwene's case take the lack of comedy (C-), the lack of any perspective of fairness (F-), and her infatuation with that tool Gwayne (G-) and you get C-*F-*G- = Dislike cubed.

 

I think the problem is that Egwene doesn't have any flaws. She certainly has character traits which we may dislike, but they are all author approved. Whenever she says or does something we almost always have someone who tells us how right she was and in the few cases we don't she gets that endorsement later on. By now she has had just about every woman channeler in the series who ever met her serve in the role of telling us how wonderful she is.

 

This is SO true! Perfectly stated.

 

We're not allowed to either like or dislike Egwene on our own, because the author grabs us by our collective throat and demands that we love and admire and root for his fauvorite Wonder Girl.This chorus of worshippers she gets is really annoying. Just how many times Siuan must say or think that Egwene is the bestest Amyrlin ever?

 

With other characters, we simply can see on our own when they are being awesome. In Egwene's case, for some reason, we have to be told. And told again.

 

I don't know why, but RJ got rid of his usual subtlety in Egwene's parts of the story. The writing is ham-fisted and often reads like a cheap propaganda, instead of a complicated and nuanced story it should be.

 

I think that Brandon tried to install a little bit of human traits into Egwene in ToM, but what he could do? She was written by RJ in a certain, terrible way, and he had to live with that.

[Himiko]

I wasn't really planning to make another post on Egwene, but meh, there's a thread here and I'm in a foruming mood :P

 

heh people hate egwene so much that they are starting to believe the tower being reunified may or may not be a good thing. Seriously. It seems that people have some sort of personal resentment towards her. Her sudden rise to power, the taking no prisoner attitude, refusal to bend to anyone. I must admit though i sometimes find it amusing. I actually kinda respect those posters who actually despise her. At least there is no sugar coating with them lot. It's in your face and that is that.

 

however those other posters who try to hide their egwene hate behind the thin veneer of neutrality is what irks me the most. As if they are running some sort of competition to be the most logical, fair, neutral poster.

 

Maybe its less trying to hide their hate behind neutrality, and more trying to lay their thoughts out in a less biased way. I mean, if one of my friends in real life asked me "So what do you think of Egwene?", I would reply "I loathe her with a fiery burning passion, I hope she dies", but if I'm on a discussion forum, I like to give reasonably detailed reasons, and try and think of positives. You know- "I don't like this character, but I accept that she's done some positive things", or "I like this character, but I accept she's done some negative things"- some people just tend to phrase posts like that...

 

Anyway, that aside:

 

I accept that Egwene, if she survives TG and remains the Amyrlin Seat, will probably be one of the most powerful people in the world, possibly next to Logain. When people refer to Nynaeve becoming more legendary than Egwene- well, Siuan was the most powerful woman in the world, and the Amyrlins before her, but Cadsuane is still considered a legend amongst Aes Sedai, despite never holding that power within the White Tower. I think, from Nynaeve's personality, and her beliefs regarding how the Aes Sedai should operate, as compared to how they actually do, she is being built up to be a "new Cadsuane", if that makes sense. I realise this is slightly off topic, more to do with Nynaeve- does anyone know if there's a topic dedicated to Nynaeve anywhere on the boards, I've looked but I can't find one, which seems odd, as a lot of people list her amongst their favourites.

 

Most of my main issues with Egwene stem from her personality, rather than her actions in office. I mean, her persuading Nynaeve that she has to think of her as Amyrlin, I don't take issue with (beyond the fact that I simply don't like Egwene), she's newly elected, trying to cement her power base, and as Nynaeve and Elayne are her friends, and two very powerful Aes Sedai, it makes sense to secure their loyalty. When she was Elaida's prisoner, she was steadfast, held to her goals, and identified problems within the tower. She did a good job in unifying it. Nynaeve's testing was a bad decision on her part, I believe, because rather than showing she would not give her friends special favours, it showed that she would overlook exceptionally bad treatment of her friends if it meant gaining support- if I were one of those sisters who still don't support Egwene, I would take note of that for future reference.

 

Other than that, however, my issues with her as Amyrlin lie in the unrealistic nature of her sudden political knowledge. As I've said before, I find it very unlikely that a few months under Siuan's guidance would be enough to make her into a master politician, who can manipulate and trick women who are pretty much masters of such arts. It seems like she's written to be too good at everything, and this kind of undermines the awesomeness that could come from when she does pull off great feats. She has multiple talents, she's strong in weaving Earth, she's one of the most powerful Aes Sedai in existence- Elayne, I believe, is supposed to be roughly her equal in power, and Nynaeve surpasses her, can't think of any others- but it all seems to come so damn easily to her that its not nearly as impressive as it should be. Same in the tower- she has to match wits with all these Aes Sedai who see her as a novice/former Accepted, and, after only a little while practicing politics, she manages this effortlessly, too- they're all asking for her advice. There's no "Hell Yeah!" moment, where training and learning, and several failures pay off in a spectacular result, because in her own POV, I don't remember any of this seeming any effort at all. The one Hell Yeah! moment from tGS was, of course, Egwene battling the Seanchan, dosed up with forkroot, and armed with s'angreal and novices- because she had a disadvantage to overcome, and it was far more likely that the novices would follow her orders and show her respect than the other Aes Sedai. But that was it.

 

I still hold that I would have preferred for Egwene to have been written as a much less powerful channeler- realising that Nynaeve and Elayne would far outstrip her in terms of raw power could have caused her to start closely observing AS politics, how best to manipulate the system, or rise high in the tower, due to her ambition to do well in whatever she happens to be doing at the time. This concentration on politics could then be built on with lessons from Siuan, the former Amyrlin seat, to make her much more well equipped to deal with the challenges of obtaining and holding the position, and outsmarting older and more experienced AS. It wouldn't have made her personality any more likeable, necessarily, but I personally would have found it a bit more realistic. But that's just idle speculation, of course, its obviously not going to happen, her power level and story have already happened.

 

Personality wise, I think everything's pretty much been said. She treats Nynaeve badly long before she becomes Amyrlin, to take her down a few pegs, and to cover up Egwene's lie to the Wise Ones, and, certainly in the last case, I can't find anything that makes it less than inexcusable. Gawyn's attitude (of needing to protect Egwene, whether she wants it or not) IS irritating, but her attitude that he should be "dedicated to seeing her will done" instead is no less annoying, especially when she refuses to believe that the assassins in the tower are nothing to do with the Black Ajah, and seems personally affronted that Gawyn disagrees with her, etc. and so on. But each to their own, and if you think that her good points outweigh her bad, then cool, different opinions make the world go around and all.

[randsc]

Myrelle herself, of course, is the least reprehensible:

 

“Mother, you have to understand why I did it, why we did it.” The frantic edge to her voice was fit for confronting half the Forsaken, and her in her shift. “Not just because Moiraine asked, not just because she was my friend. I hate letting them die. I hate it! The bargain we make is hard on us, sometimes, but harder on them. You must understand. You must!”

 

 

 

While I generally agree about Myrelle, I honestly can't see how the quote you provided illustrates her reprehensibility. I would think that it actually shows her in a better light.

 

But it's possible I don't see something obvious... Myrelle, as most Aes Sedai, treated Warders instrumentally and didn't respect Lan's freedom of choice, but the quote shows that she actually cared for the Warders.

 

 

That's why she is the LEAST reprehensible. She's still a willing member of an organization that is at best useless. And, and you say, has no respect for the agency of (am I saying that right? Someone call Emu or Sunny)

[randsc]

I wasn't really planning to make another post on Egwene, but meh, there's a thread here and I'm in a foruming mood :P

 

heh people hate egwene so much that they are starting to believe the tower being reunified may or may not be a good thing. Seriously. It seems that people have some sort of personal resentment towards her. Her sudden rise to power, the taking no prisoner attitude, refusal to bend to anyone. I must admit though i sometimes find it amusing. I actually kinda respect those posters who actually despise her. At least there is no sugar coating with them lot. It's in your face and that is that.

 

however those other posters who try to hide their egwene hate behind the thin veneer of neutrality is what irks me the most. As if they are running some sort of competition to be the most logical, fair, neutral poster.

 

Maybe its less trying to hide their hate behind neutrality, and more trying to lay their thoughts out in a less biased way. I mean, if one of my friends in real life asked me "So what do you think of Egwene?", I would reply "I loathe her with a fiery burning passion, I hope she dies", but if I'm on a discussion forum, I like to give reasonably detailed reasons, and try and think of positives. You know- "I don't like this character, but I accept that she's done some positive things", or "I like this character, but I accept she's done some negative things"- some people just tend to phrase posts like that...

 

Anyway, that aside:

 

I accept that Egwene, if she survives TG and remains the Amyrlin Seat, will probably be one of the most powerful people in the world, possibly next to Logain. When people refer to Nynaeve becoming more legendary than Egwene- well, Siuan was the most powerful woman in the world, and the Amyrlins before her, but Cadsuane is still considered a legend amongst Aes Sedai, despite never holding that power within the White Tower. I think, from Nynaeve's personality, and her beliefs regarding how the Aes Sedai should operate, as compared to how they actually do, she is being built up to be a "new Cadsuane", if that makes sense. I realise this is slightly off topic, more to do with Nynaeve- does anyone know if there's a topic dedicated to Nynaeve anywhere on the boards, I've looked but I can't find one, which seems odd, as a lot of people list her amongst their favourites.

 

Most of my main issues with Egwene stem from her personality, rather than her actions in office. I mean, her persuading Nynaeve that she has to think of her as Amyrlin, I don't take issue with (beyond the fact that I simply don't like Egwene), she's newly elected, trying to cement her power base, and as Nynaeve and Elayne are her friends, and two very powerful Aes Sedai, it makes sense to secure their loyalty. When she was Elaida's prisoner, she was steadfast, held to her goals, and identified problems within the tower. She did a good job in unifying it. Nynaeve's testing was a bad decision on her part, I believe, because rather than showing she would not give her friends special favours, it showed that she would overlook exceptionally bad treatment of her friends if it meant gaining support- if I were one of those sisters who still don't support Egwene, I would take note of that for future reference.

 

Other than that, however, my issues with her as Amyrlin lie in the unrealistic nature of her sudden political knowledge. As I've said before, I find it very unlikely that a few months under Siuan's guidance would be enough to make her into a master politician, who can manipulate and trick women who are pretty much masters of such arts. It seems like she's written to be too good at everything, and this kind of undermines the awesomeness that could come from when she does pull off great feats. She has multiple talents, she's strong in weaving Earth, she's one of the most powerful Aes Sedai in existence- Elayne, I believe, is supposed to be roughly her equal in power, and Nynaeve surpasses her, can't think of any others- but it all seems to come so damn easily to her that its not nearly as impressive as it should be. Same in the tower- she has to match wits with all these Aes Sedai who see her as a novice/former Accepted, and, after only a little while practicing politics, she manages this effortlessly, too- they're all asking for her advice. There's no "Hell Yeah!" moment, where training and learning, and several failures pay off in a spectacular result, because in her own POV, I don't remember any of this seeming any effort at all. The one Hell Yeah! moment from tGS was, of course, Egwene battling the Seanchan, dosed up with forkroot, and armed with s'angreal and novices- because she had a disadvantage to overcome, and it was far more likely that the novices would follow her orders and show her respect than the other Aes Sedai. But that was it.

 

I still hold that I would have preferred for Egwene to have been written as a much less powerful channeler- realising that Nynaeve and Elayne would far outstrip her in terms of raw power could have caused her to start closely observing AS politics, how best to manipulate the system, or rise high in the tower, due to her ambition to do well in whatever she happens to be doing at the time. This concentration on politics could then be built on with lessons from Siuan, the former Amyrlin seat, to make her much more well equipped to deal with the challenges of obtaining and holding the position, and outsmarting older and more experienced AS. It wouldn't have made her personality any more likeable, necessarily, but I personally would have found it a bit more realistic. But that's just idle speculation, of course, its obviously not going to happen, her power level and story have already happened.

 

Personality wise, I think everything's pretty much been said. She treats Nynaeve badly long before she becomes Amyrlin, to take her down a few pegs, and to cover up Egwene's lie to the Wise Ones, and, certainly in the last case, I can't find anything that makes it less than inexcusable. Gawyn's attitude (of needing to protect Egwene, whether she wants it or not) IS irritating, but her attitude that he should be "dedicated to seeing her will done" instead is no less annoying, especially when she refuses to believe that the assassins in the tower are nothing to do with the Black Ajah, and seems personally affronted that Gawyn disagrees with her, etc. and so on. But each to their own, and if you think that her good points outweigh her bad, then cool, different opinions make the world go around and all.

 

Elan's trolling, and not even in an interesting way anymore. Make him work harder for it.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Myrelle herself, of course, is the least reprehensible:

 

“Mother, you have to understand why I did it, why we did it.” The frantic edge to her voice was fit for confronting half the Forsaken, and her in her shift. “Not just because Moiraine asked, not just because she was my friend. I hate letting them die. I hate it! The bargain we make is hard on us, sometimes, but harder on them. You must understand. You must!”

 

 

 

While I generally agree about Myrelle, I honestly can't see how the quote you provided illustrates her reprehensibility. I would think that it actually shows her in a better light.

 

But it's possible I don't see something obvious... Myrelle, as most Aes Sedai, treated Warders instrumentally and didn't respect Lan's freedom of choice, but the quote shows that she actually cared for the Warders.

 

 

That's why she is the LEAST reprehensible. She's still a willing member of an organization that is at best useless. And, and you say, has no respect for the agency of (am I saying that right? Someone call Emu or Sunny)

 

Ok, so I really didn't see something obvious and somehow managed to misunderstand. I'm really tired but that's not really a good excuse, sorry...thanks for saying it again for me, slowly and clearly