Bin Laden dead

[Kivam]

Obama to speak in 10 minutes. Can't quite put into words exactly how this feels, as a new yorker

[Veranza]

I was just about to post something as well. This is amazing for all Americans and around the world. This is just the start of some big changes.

[Sleeper]

Hell yes.

[alykyn]

It's really a historic day.

[yoniy0]

Well, this is a historic day (I can now say that I learned of it first from DM!), but it really has nothing to do with the WoT, so I'll put the thread in the general discussion board where everyone can chip in.

[redarm]

ABOUT TIME!

[Puny]

I was just about to post something as well. This is amazing for all Americans and around the world. This is just the start of some big changes.

 

The start of what big changes?

[Red2111]

see i'm torn.

 

i totally and honestly distrust Obama to my core. my gut says it's too coincedental. my gut says theres something fishy with it. first theres the fact that bin Laden was killed instead of taken into custody, it's reported that the Seals gave him 3 chances to give up; but with such a high priorety target wouldn't the orders have been to take him alive. in my belief justice would have been better served by holding him on trial and executing him then cremating the body and dumping the ashes in the sea.

 

then theres the direct contradiction of treatemen of his body. 1st we asked X amount of countrys if they wanted his body (all of which said no) we burried it at sea within 24 hrs of his death according to Islamic Custom. my beef with this is that, shoudln't we have brought his body to the US to give closure and proof that he was dead. after all "Seeing is Believing" ya know. and for the "not wanting to anger or insult people" if they were truely our alleys i'm sure they'd understand us not following their religous guidlines for this guy right and our enemys woudl be angered no matter what we did.

 

the last reason why my gut doesn't feel comfy with out right believing it is the simple fact that Obama's in election gear right now. the #1 thing that Obama's opponents say right now is that Obama has no victories to run on (ie: can't run off his record) for re-election. now conveniently, he's caught & killed Osama bin Laden, and did so right after all this controversy with his Birth Certificate has been unearthed. by doing it now (if this is a set up and a lie) he not avoids suspicion of it being a set up to give him an accomplishment even conservatives will cheer, but anyone who voices doubt will be treated with animosity (especially if those people were so-called "Birthers")

 

 

 

now, like i said, i'm torn. becuase if i were to buy into the consperacy that my gut & brain are cooking up, then it would mean also having to believe 1 of 2 outcomes. that Obama is an Alquada operative, which is why they are also claiming now that bin Laden is dead and vowing retribution. or that bin Laden isn't dead (or was already previously killed but his death undiscovered or kept quiet) and that not only are various people in the governement in on this but also various people in the military as well.

 

and both these reasons i'm not willing to accept. just like i'm not willing to accept the gov was behind the 9/11 attacks even though a few things about the collapse of the Twin Towers don't add up (like the fact that the buildings collapsed at the rate of a free fall when there should have been internal resistance from lower unstruck levels, the muliptle explosions heard from well below the impact site before the planes crashed, and the mysterious interior work the Twin towers were under going up to a week before the terrorist attack)

 

 

so i'm gonna have to wait to see. as i've been of the opinion that bin Laden has been dead for a while now.

[Varg]

 

 

 

The start of what big changes?

Exactly! Investigate building 7. The presence of military grade explosives all over the site. The fact that the plane crash debris was all small pieces, blown all over a large area.(PA) The fact that you can't fit a 757 into the hole made in pentagon. It was a lot of firsts on that day. Norad failed for the first time, because they were doing war games of that same exact scenario. 3 steel structured buildings fell due to 'fire' for the first time in history only burning for a few hours. Destroyed evidence, etc etc....

There is also a video of bush saying that he was watching the first plane hit the first building live. Not to mention that his brother ran security in wtc, and that explosive sniffing dogs were pulled out of the building days or weeks (can't recall) before the tragedy.

[yoniy0]

My god, Red, that's not how the world works. I assure you, some things you can't fake (if you don't believe your own government, though, I guess you might not me as well).

 

As an aside, and talking as a non-American, I don't see why anyone should attribute this success to President Obama of all people. These things are handled by professionals, and the politicians usually give the only order they can. Also, only time will tell how meaningful an achievement this actually was. Many times before has the leader of a terrorist organization been assassinated (or whatever you might call it) only to have a more capable leader inherit him.

[Red2111]

guys just a warning on the truther stuff. i get that some of you believe it (and you are entilted to have that belief), and that the two are related due to the 9/11 attacks being ran & organized partly by bin Laden. but i ask that you make a seperate thread for it if you must discuss it please.

 

 

yoniy0 - i know the world doesnt work like that. theres plenty of consperacys out there that one on this magnitude doesn't even need to be started if anything, the fact that one of my first reactions to the news was "oh how convienent for you Obama, part of me thinks its a bit too convienent" just speaks to how much i distrust my government. as i said in my post, i'm unwilling to 100% believe in it due to what implications it woudl mean. implications i'm not willing to accept or entertain. but i still had to voice that little doubt in my mind

 

 

as for why the victory is laid at Obama's feet; simply put its because he was president at the time bin Laden was killed. the President is the face of the government and it's fall guy. things go good, he gets to take the praise; things go bad, he gets the cake on his face. regaurdless of who set up the means for the outcome to happen. it sucks, but thats popular opinion for you.

[yoniy0]

Well that's just silly. While this operation was likely carried out with minimal involvement from the oval office, many really important decisions are being made there (dare I say 'daily'? Perhaps not). You should vote for the most capable candidate, and the one who better shares your values and opinions; exactly when the intelligence community carried out a certain operation or a tornado struck has no bearing on that, I should think.

[Kivam]

BTW - when she says "start another thread" - she means "start another thread on D&D". No truther threads (or any other political debate threads) belong on General.

[Rufae]

I believe it is real. It would be too easy to for Obame to post a video online and say "Here I am!" and give Obama an EPIC FAIL. One video would all it would take to totally put egg on Obama's face. Also, if Obama was going to pull out a fake news card about killing Bin Laden, why now? Why not wait until the next election and pull an October Surprise?

 

No, it is real or at least the Government thinks it is real.

[Elend]

DNA has confirmed it so unless Bin Laden has some clones running around, its him.

[Red2111]

thanks Kiv

 

 

Yiniy0 i get what your saying. Bush should get as much credit as Obama for this, as both presidents helped make the kill happen. but the true pat on the back belongs to the informants, Military & CIA that found the intell as well as the Officals that were able to finally pull the trigger on him. but Obama will claimt this as his success. just as he claimed the withdraw in Iraq as his success and the inevedable withdraw out of Afgahnastan (which should happen now that mission objective "find bin Laden is complete") even though the previous president had as much to do with it as him.

 

even if McCain was in office, McCain woudl still claim most of the "bravo" for this moment. it's just how the system works. it comes with being the president. and i totally agree with you about the voting thing btw btw, i'm not doig a "bash Obama" thing here, just stating the obvious. as i said, if it had been McCain or even Hilary Clinton, they would have claimed this as their victory too.

 

 

 

Sam - i agree also about the "post a vid for epic fail" if he wasn't dead. which is one reason why i'm not willing to even entertain the thought of it being a set up and him still being alive. but for the "why pull it now" thing, i've already thought that out. by pulling it out now, while the election cycle is starting and the primarys are just kicking into gear its less likely to be questioned. by killling Osama, he now has an accomplishment even conservatives can ralley behind and if you listen to Obama's oposition the one thing they keep toting is that "Obama can't run on his record."

 

also right now, releasing this has a tacticle advantage. as it comes on the tale end of the Brither Debate being discredited; so anyone who voices opinons about this being a fabricated death will just be lumped in with the Birthers and called psycho.

 

 

 

personally, i think we killed bin Laden back in 03 when we bomb the crap out of the mountain ranges. Bubba thinks that they actually captured bin Laden and are holding him in the 3rd tier of hades for a great chat. i can't agree with Bubba, because in that situation interegation would do no good and since he knows he wouldn't be getting out alive at all theres no insentive for him to tell the truth under interegation. whats the point if your gonna die ya know and everyone already thinks your dead.

 

 

but i can't see why the gov would keep his death silent, if they did know about it. it gains more to say "hey he's dead" or why Al Quada would playy along instead of saying "your gov is lieing, Osama is dead" and cause more distrust in the gov than lready was there. this is why i'm dismissing that his death was a set up logically; but my gut keeps nagging me *duct tapes my guts mouth shut*

[Red2111]

yeah i'd heard they took his DNA before they dumped the body.

 

 

oh, another thing. if it was a "Kill Mission" like what Obama is saying; then why did the soldiers give bin Laden 3 seperate chances to surrendor?? that doesn't make sense. i understand why we didn't just level the building, and why we went in like we did. but why not just put two in his head or chest and be doen with it instead of trying to get him to give up. i mean if he had given up, we couldn't have killed him then, as he would have been unarmed.

 

 

see it's stuff like this that gets my gut's panty's in a twist.

[yoniy0]

Only President Obama said no such thing. He said that either Bin Laden's surrender or his death was a sufficient success condition for the mission. I tend to think his interrogation would've turned up some useful intelligence, so they probably preferred to take him alive. But I do understand why he wouldn't have that.

[Red2111]

heres the article i got the info from

 

My link

 

orders to capture versus kill Osama would have come from teh President, not a General.

 

i have no clue how reliable Reuters is, infact i've never heard of the until today. and they don't name the Offical who said that is was a kill mission not a capture mission. so there you have it

[Red2111]

oh and for those who didn't catch it at 12 am. heres the briefing by the Senior Administratings Officer for what happened

 

My link

[Feral]

I have to say I do find it strange that he was killed. Even if he refused to surrender. Oh well whatever. I don't suppose it'll change much anyway, but it's one less nutter in the world I guess.

[Elend]

heres the article i got the info from

 

My link

 

orders to capture versus kill Osama would have come from teh President, not a General.

 

i have no clue how reliable Reuters is, infact i've never heard of the until today. and they don't name the Offical who said that is was a kill mission not a capture mission. so there you have it

 

Reuters is a trustworthy news source.

 

Reuters.

[yoniy0]

Yes, but that doesn't mean everything they publish is true. In this example, one officer could be putting his own spin on the orders he saw (like, if the mission's priority was to preserve their forces over taking him alive, which in the situation meant he would most likely be killed), or he might even be speaking from hearsay. Needless to say, whoever it was decided to make a reporter privy to what has to be either secret or false information, which should lead us to - at the very least - question his character.

[aclund3]

I'm more interested in hearing what our foreign brothers and sisters have to say about the situation. Obviously, as Americans we see this as a victory (great or small depending on your own views/biases). I'd like to know what the rest of the world has to say about it, straight without any media bias getting in the way. What is the general (or specific) view in your country? Thanks!

[Winterwinds]

My thoughts, as posted on Facebook.

 

There is a point where the deeds of a person surpasses the level where they still have the right to be called human. It is my belief that Osama surpassed that threa...shold long ago, on that day now so long past when the Twin Towers fell. To say that I am not happy to see this monster manifest as a man pass from this earth would be a lie, for I am happy.

 

However, there is a lesson to be learned out of this, to be found admist the feelings of joy the US, and other countries around the world feel for his death, violence begets violence. The war, the conflict, we have found ourselves in is not done. His death marks a turning point in history, but not the end of the chapter of this war in the history of this war.

 

As the president said last night, we must still be vigilant, for in the days that follow the fighting will grow stronger for those brave souls who are over in the middle east fighting. Osama's death will, and likely has sent ripples through the places he held in his shadow of fear, and those who he led will now fight for revenge, just as we did when we went after him. Let us hope that this however marks the true turning point in this conflict, and that it marks the day that our troops return home shall come that much sooner.

 

This being said, as for those outside the US, well my Canadian friends basicly said "HECK YES!" and a friend of mine who lives in Poland said "ABOUT TIME!" so, rest assured people outside the US dont think too highly of Osama as well, since his shadow of fear expanded to more then just the US.