Betrayed w/ a kiss

[White_star]

I doubt it will be "with a kiss" but Rand IS a parallel of Jesus, and he was betrayed by someone close to him (I'm not too familiar w/ his other parallels but I remember the Arther legend also has betrayal). Many think he(Rand) WILL be betrayed which is a very strong possibility, maybe even a certainty, so who do you think will do it.

 

In another thread, on the General WoT discussion board (here later part of pg 15,16), some have said Egwene will be the one, which is were I lean too.

Some posters have shown strong pointers that this could happen, though I didn't see any in the mentioned thread other then the Arther legend but I know I've seen some in other threads. And, she still has her dream where she and that Seanchan woman (Fortuona?)face Rand. While dreams don't always come true (as per what the WOs said in SR?) ever since I read about that I have always had the suspicion that Fortuona would propose sharing control of him w/ Egwene if she helped in getting the DB on him. We still haven't seen Forkroot used on men and that WAS a RAFO by RJ as to whether or not that will happen, which I know doesn't mean it WILL happen.

 

Another betrayer possibility that I've seen mentioned with some debate in the past is Mat, either on purpose or by accident from perhaps not watching his mouth.

 

The others listed I've seen mentioned in various threads here and there. I really can't see any of his lady friends betraying him but Elayne may be too much in Eggy's camp to disobey ANY command she gives her. Perrin is no longer on that list because since the Faile business is concluded he is too strongly on Rand's side especially in ToM.

 

I kinda doubt there is time left to write about more then one but maybe it will be a group betrayal. Should I open it up so you can vote for more then one?

[rand4747]

I almost think Egwene will try and capture and gentle him to prevent him from breaking the seals.

As a last ditch effort when nothing else works because he gets most of the nations onside.

Since she can never have anything done but what she wants, she would doom the world just to get it.

[Sleeper]

Egwene or Alanna.

[bloodyflamingthisandthat]

I say Eggers and Alanna. I can't Gwenevere trying to gentle Rand, but she'll do something.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I can see Egwene's point in ToM but she is truly a fool if she thinks to stop Rand once he has explained what he is going to do. I can believe it of her. This might be jsut because of Sanderson's different writing style, or it might be something else, but Egwene is becomming more a fool than ever.

[sleepinghour]

Egwene or Mat, maybe both. If it happens, I don't think it will be an intentional betrayal; it could be something that seems harmless at the time but turns out to have dire consequences, much like the situation with Mat and Verin's letter.

 

"He's just worried about the dagger, Rand," Loial said.

"I know," Rand said. But how long before he tells somebody what I am, not even meaning to? He could not believe Mat would betray him on purpose; there was that much of their friendship left, at least.

[...]

When he tried to straighten Mat, Mat jerked and stared at him, then grabbed Rand's coat with both hands. "Rand, I'd never tell anyone about—about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to believe that!" He looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.

"I do," Rand said. He wondered what lives Mat had lived, and what he had done. He must have told someone, or he wouldn't be so anxious about it. He could not hold it against him. Those had been other Mats, not this one.

"Is that all there is for me?" she [Egwene] demanded. "To abandon him again and again. To betray him, fail him, again and again? Is that what there is for me?"

[Jon Paul]

My hate for Egwene stops from approaching this thread impartially !

 

But I don't think Egwene fits. She isn't his friend. She's not numbered amongst his "apostles", rather she's his Caiphas.

[Sbond91]

Egwene's had some possible foreshadowing in this area back in TGH, although it doesn't necessarily mean she will betray him (red herrings and all). She doesn't fit in with the Arthurian legends (unless you take the Guinevere comparison seriously and link her infidelity in the legends with betraying Rand. She doesn't fit Morgan Le Fay at all.)

 

The biblical link doesn't necessarily work for her either. Judas was a trusted apostle and Egwene certainly isn't one of Rand's apostles. Oh, they're friends, but she's not a follower of the Dragon Reborn.

 

As well as that, I really don't get the sense that Egwene's plot arc has been leading up to her "betraying" Rand. For one, her arc has been diverging her from Rand quite consistently. It would be odd for "betrayal" to come from someone who clearly doesn't agree with him very much.

 

I think Mat works quite well. He sortof fits with Arthurian legends (Lancelot was Arthur's most trusted general, and "betrayed" him by sleeping with Guinevere), and I suppose he's one of Rand's trusted "apostles".

 

Of course, I'm not sure the links of mythology/religion should be taken too far. But it's an interesting idea anyway.

[RedRaider]

I think its Perrin. The Broken Wolf will become the Broken Wolf after he betrays Rand for his wretched schemeing wife. She posesses all of the qualities found pleasing to your average superficial darkfirend.

 

Greed

Jealousy

Envy

Control

 

Perrin will blindly follow her, as he always does, down the dark path and he wont realize what he's done until its too late. I think he'll rebound though, but not until after be betrays Rand in some fashion.

[Guest PiotrekS]

My hate for Egwene stops from approaching this thread impartially !

 

But I don't think Egwene fits. She isn't his friend. She's not numbered amongst his "apostles", rather she's his Caiphas.

 

I agree. Rand hasn't even trusted her for a long time and there is no emotional bond between them.

 

It is a big difference with Guinevere situation.

[Muad Cheade]

So is this the thread to support any character you don't like to "do the deed?"

 

Really? Egwene will try to gentle Rand to prevent the breaking of the seals? Really? Not even Elaida would do that.

 

There's always the possibility that anyone can betray Rand even unintentionally.

 

As much as I like him, it might be Bashere. Min has a viewing that if he left or betrayed Rand, he would be in trouble.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

not the first sentence. but the third, i think. ^

[spoke]

I voted Mat. Mainly due to TGH. Mainly because he said that he would never betray Rand, after traveling via the portal stone. But realistically, we have already seen this from Elza, so that doesn't mean there has to be another Betrayal.

[herid]

please add option "none". That would be my vote. I don't see anybody betraying Rand. Rand's character has many mythological parallels and Jesus is only a part of them. RJ even said so himself

How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus Christ is Rand?

 

Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Rand's and Jesus's stories have very few details in common. why do you think that this particular one will play out?

[Tiinker]

please add option "none". That would be my vote. I don't see anybody betraying Rand. Rand's character has many mythological parallels and Jesus is only a part of them. RJ even said so himself

How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus Christ is Rand?

 

Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Rand's and Jesus's stories have very few details in common. why do you think that this particular one will play out?

 

I think it's just the idea. In tons of stories does the main character get betrayed. Heck I can think of about 10 off the top of my head.

 

Lord of the Rings - Saruman

Jesus - Judas

Mists of Avalon - Lancelot

Gates of Fire (300 Spartans) - Can't remember the name

Inheritance Cycle - Murtagh

Harry Potter - Snape

Half of the Shakespear plays..

 

List goes on and on. Hasn't seem to happen yet in WoT so we can still speculate, but that's not saying that it is in fact going to happen.

[Tiinker]

Actually it has happened between Perrin and Aram. But we're talking about Rand here!

[herid]

please add option "none". That would be my vote. I don't see anybody betraying Rand. Rand's character has many mythological parallels and Jesus is only a part of them. RJ even said so himself

How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus Christ is Rand?

 

Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Rand's and Jesus's stories have very few details in common. why do you think that this particular one will play out?

 

I think it's just the idea. In tons of stories does the main character get betrayed. Heck I can think of about 10 off the top of my head.

 

Lord of the Rings - Saruman

Jesus - Judas

Mists of Avalon - Lancelot

Gates of Fire (300 Spartans) - Can't remember the name

Inheritance Cycle - Murtagh

Harry Potter - Snape

Half of the Shakespear plays..

 

List goes on and on. Hasn't seem to happen yet in WoT so we can still speculate, but that's not saying that it is in fact going to happen.

fair enough but I still want the "none" option which is not represented in the poll.

BTW, if anybody is going to betray anybody I'd bet on Rand ahead of the others.

LT said that TP means "death and betrayal" and BS said that there will be consequences for Rand's use of TP. Betrayal seems a possibility. Also, in prologue of tPD, when Moridin is playing sha’rah against himself (this scene is full of foreshadowings) he mentions that

"When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end."

There is also a dark prophecy from TGH implying that Rand will serve Lanfear. All in all, I'm betting on Rand switching sides (perhaps involuntarily) a couple more times before the end.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

your vote is duly noted nonetheless.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

oh, and i can definitnely see the possibility of self betrayal. the man's tripped over his own feet a few times. i can also see the possibility of more than one betraying him, and possibly for reasons they think are for the greater good, or are fooled into or compelled into seeing them that way.

 

it would surprise me to have a simple ending with no betrayals, but it could happen.

[Tiinker]

Really? Zen Rand betraying after he went through all that hardening for about nine books? I don't see it happening.. Though I would also like to see it up there in the poll so we can get an idea of what's likely.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't mean rand betraying the light, i mean betraying himself by some stupid move. he does do that at times. not high on my expectations, but possible, i think.

[Chivalry]

I can see Egwene's point in ToM but she is truly a fool if she thinks to stop Rand once he has explained what he is going to do. I can believe it of her. This might be jsut because of Sanderson's different writing style, or it might be something else, but Egwene is becomming more a fool than ever.

 

Wait, didn't you get the memo? Egwene rocks!

 

 

So does Jar Jar, btw.

[White_star]

Sorry for taking so long; having computer problems.

 

Yes, I agree, Egwene probably shouldn't be on the list since in order to betray someone, that someone needs to have a certain level of trust in them and she has given him no reason to trust her. But, maybe he would let his guard down a little with her. I don't think Moiraine mentioned her specifically in that letter she gave him but wouldn't Egwene fall under those she said he could trust?

 

fair enough but I still want the "none" option which is not represented in the poll.

wish granted. do you really want a "self betrayal" option?

 

I think it's just the idea.

Exactly

 

In tons of stories does the main character get betrayed. Heck I can think of about 10 off the top of my head.

 

Lord of the Rings - Saruman

Jesus - Judas

Mists of Avalon - Lancelot

Gates of Fire (300 Spartans) - Can't remember the name

Inheritance Cycle - Murtagh

Harry Potter - Snape

Half of the Shakespear plays..

I only used the Jesus parallel because that's the only one I'm very familiar with.

 

Should Perrin be added?

[Terez]

There are some interesting parallels between Mat and Judas, not least the hanging and Rand saving him 'with a kiss', and of course the foreshadowing of betrayal in TGH. That being said, I think it more likely that Mat's betrayal will be accidental. I can see Egwene playing the betrayer role, too, but not because I'm an Egwene-hater, but because she is a Guinevere parallel.

[Tiinker]

There are some interesting parallels between Mat and Judas, not least the hanging and Rand saving him 'with a kiss', and of course the foreshadowing of betrayal in TGH.

 

I missed that completely when reading :( Can you tell me which chapter?