Seanchan vs Dark One

[Terez]

Ah. Gotcha. Well, isn't it likely that someone else is leading it? No one of importance (that we know) was leading the attacks on Tylee and Ituralde and Perrin. Also, Mat might not even be there to fight as he still has to wait for Grady to make a gateway at noon (maybe Perrin might see Mat in the colors and come earlier).

Yeah, no telling what will happen, but most people seem to think he'll end up with the Band, as is appropriate. Also, this is very different from the attacks on Tylee and Perrin and such - as in, it's not just the Shadowspawn, but also the Black Tower, the dreamspike, and presumably also Demandred's armies. Which might well include the Legion of the Dragon, but almost certainly includes Murandy.

[Nightstrike]

Only those two options? I think I would prefer the Seanchan.

 

Mat & Tuon might make the Seanchan abandon some their customs. I think RJ probably planned that to happen.

[Muad Cheade]

Ah. Gotcha. Well, isn't it likely that someone else is leading it? No one of importance (that we know) was leading the attacks on Tylee and Ituralde and Perrin. Also, Mat might not even be there to fight as he still has to wait for Grady to make a gateway at noon (maybe Perrin might see Mat in the colors and come earlier).

Yeah, no telling what will happen, but most people seem to think he'll end up with the Band, as is appropriate. Also, this is very different from the attacks on Tylee and Perrin and such - as in, it's not just the Shadowspawn, but also the Black Tower, the dreamspike, and presumably also Demandred's armies. Which might well include the Legion of the Dragon, but almost certainly includes Murandy.

Yeah. You're right. The timing of the attack with what's going on at the Black Tower is suspicious.

[Entreri]

Yes a whole lot of people need spankings but I´d rather get one from the Seanchan then the Dark One. If the Seanchan win atleast you have fair chance of fighting back, and the Wheel keeps turning. If the Dark One wins there is instability and chaos at best and the Wheel smashed to little pieces when at worst.

 

 

I hope to see Rand dealing with that little Empress in the next book.

 

Too bad the DR does not survive, otherwise he would show the Seanchan who is the boss if they ever got out of line.

[Puny]

I do think he (Rand) will talk with her, but it will be Mat that does most of the convincing I think.

[Terez]

Is 'convincing' anything like 'comforting'?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i'm not sure anyone will be able to convince the seanchan of anything. this huge empire's whole economy is based on slavery. historically, it takes some awful carnage and monumental struggle to change that. people don't just decide that since it's immoral, they'll just, 'let [their] people go.'

 

but maybe mat is that taveren.

[Turok]

I wasn't really meaning this to be that big of deal. This was kind of my thinking. The series is going to end so I don't really care to much what happens after the books so I don't really care if the Wheel stops. The Seanchan just bug me so much, not really even so much because of the slavery thing but just because of how arrogant they are. So if Rand where to beat the Dark One just to have the Seanchan take over the whole world like in the vision I would rather have the Dark One win if it meant the Seanchan get a royal screwing over. Obviously RJ is not going to do either of those so I am not saying either are going to happen and I definitely want Rand to win, I just started this to see if other people hate them as much as I. Suprisingly quite a few people don't seem to mind them which is fine, I was just curious.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Suprisingly quite a few people don't seem to mind them which is fine, I was just curious.

 

i don't think preferring them to the victory of the dark one and the destruction of all of creation is quite the same as not minding them. . . even if the wheel did somehow keep turning, i'd still have to choose to not be ruled by the dark one. . .

[Turok]

Suprisingly quite a few people don't seem to mind them which is fine, I was just curious.

 

i don't think preferring them to the victory of the dark one and the destruction of all of creation is quite the same as not minding them. . . even if the wheel did somehow keep turning, i'd still have to choose to not be ruled by the dark one. . .

 

 

 

Oh yeah, I was just refering to the comments people actually made about them straight up and not just taking them over the dark one.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ah, ok, sorry.

[Turok]

Also I do have a question and I am sure there are probably topics on it already but would the Wheel really stop turning if the dark one won? It definitely makes since but I thought I had seen something before about how the Dark One might need Rand turned to completely stop the wheel else he would have just had Rand killed instead of trying to turn him. Or did he just try and turn him to make things easier for him to win?

[Puny]

Is 'convincing' anything like 'comforting'?

 

Lol I dk Terez. It will prolly be abit of both.

Off topic.. I have no recollection whatsoever of writing that... I think I need sleep.

[MauricXe]

If the Seanchan win, then I suspect our fav female channelers, Moiraine, Elayne, Egwene, Siuan, and Nynaeve will be collared at some point or another assuming that they do survive TG.

 

I rather have the darkside win.

[JKN-SW]

The Seanchan have a seriously fubar:d culture, but as was mentioned above, cultures change. Also empires don't last forever, so like Artur Hawkwing before them, sooner or later their time will come to an end and something else will rise from the rubble of their once great empire.

 

Good point about the WWII parallells, hadn't thought about it, but it has a lot of credit. (And what happened to the once great Soviet empire? )

[Eichhörnchen]

I think Jordan consciously created parallels with the decision the UK, America, etc. faced in WWII--to ally with the Soviets or risk losing to the Nazis (whose parallels with the Shadow are well documented). They (almost certainly correctly) decided that guys currently overrunning countries and killing millions (we may not have known about the true extent of it, but the motivation and rationale was open) were the more pressing threat. But we ended up facilitating the rise of the Soviet Empire and the murder of tens of millions. Hardly an easy or comfortable choice.

 

Verbal contortions on the board notwithstanding, the Seanchan are definitely at a Soviet-level of evil. But they're not at a Nazi-Shadow level of evil. Anything Rand and the others can do to hurt the Seanchan they should, but not at the threat of losing the fight against the Shadow.

 

 

Are you kidding me? The Soviets were more evil than the Nazis. Why do you think Eastern Europe fought so bitterly on the side of the Nazis to stem the advances of the Soviets? Many areas in the East when forced to choose preferred Nazi rule over Soviet rule, see the Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Western Ukraine, Crimea, Romania, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Albania.

 

You have an awfully West-centric view. Why don't you go to Budapest or Estonia or Western Ukraine in a bar and loudly say that the Soviets were better than the Nazis. I'd be surprised to see how long until you're hospitalized.

 

As someone who had family murdered under the Soviets and had significant family ethnically cleansed by those scumbags, I find your comparisons and downplaying of the Soviets very offensive.

[Zentari]

 

 

As someone who had family murdered under the Soviets and had significant family ethnically cleansed by those scumbags, I find your comparisons and downplaying of the Soviets very offensive.

And it would be vice versa from someone who had his family killed by the nazis.See what I'm getting at ?

[Eichhörnchen]

 

 

As someone who had family murdered under the Soviets and had significant family ethnically cleansed by those scumbags, I find your comparisons and downplaying of the Soviets very offensive.

And it would be vice versa from someone who had his family killed by the nazis.See what I'm getting at ?

 

 

More people died by Soviet hands.

[Zentari]

More people died by Soviet hands.

So you quantify how evil one is by the amount one has killed ? Interesting.

[JKN-SW]

 

 

As someone who had family murdered under the Soviets and had significant family ethnically cleansed by those scumbags, I find your comparisons and downplaying of the Soviets very offensive.

And it would be vice versa from someone who had his family killed by the nazis.See what I'm getting at ?

 

 

More people died by Soviet hands.

 

The original parallell was the choice of the western countries to ally with Soviet. For them Soviet was the lesser of two evils. Also at that point, they were goverened by the pronciple "my enemy's enemy is my friend".

 

I don't think anyone here is arguing against that fact that the Soviet regime was ruthless, opressive and in general had no regard for human rights, but neither did the Nazis.

[Eichhörnchen]

More people died by Soviet hands.

So you quantify how evil one is by the amount one has killed ? Interesting.

 

 

Among other things. The Soviets purposely starved upwards of 4 million people to death, one of the slowest and most excruciating fates you can bestow on people. How did they do it? We're talking about a region that produced excess surplus of food, they simply stole their food, put it in granaries far away to absolutely no use, banned people from leaving said region they were inflicting this on and then as a further cruelty sent undesirables to said region with the intent to starve them as well.

 

This is ignoring entirely the Soviet racially driven ethnic cleansing of Poles, Romanians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Volga Germans, Ingrian Finns, Karelians, Tartars, Crimean Greeks, Kalmyks, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Karapapak Turks, Terekeme Turks, Far East Koreans, Chechens and Ingush. Actions which resulted in the deaths of millions through the brutal, merciless and often state-sanctioned murder going on when said minorities were open to murder, rape, abuse, pillage and theft by Soviet authorities who knew they had no punishment to fear.

 

Then not enough with the ethnic cleansing they picked individuals from said racial minorities as slave labor to be worked to death in labor camps. Then in WW2 they raped and pillaged and pillaged everything from Belarussia to Berlin. Then not done being fun loving types they orchestrated the largest organized ethnic cleansing in human history by moving upwards of 12-15 million people in 1945-47 in a move that resulted in the deaths of nearly 2 million of them. Often infants and the elderly were murdered out of hand by the Soviet authorities.

 

Yeah. I would definitely say there is more than enough reason why they're tantamount to the greatest evil this world has seen in modernity. There is a reason why as perverse as it seems the Waffen SS was the largest volunteer army the world has ever seen. The Soviets were seen as infinitely worse to anyone who had the bad luck of being stuck between the two sides. Hell, in Eastern Poland much of the resistance which spent the past 4 years fighting German occupation made temporary peace with the Germans solely to fight the Soviets. That's how bad they were.

[WhiskyJack]

^^And ofcourse Polish people didn't mind Germans butchering Jews. They merely "supported" the German idea that Jews were root cause of all evil.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

As someone who had family murdered under the Soviets and had significant family ethnically cleansed by those scumbags, I find your comparisons and downplaying of the Soviets very offensive.

And it would be vice versa from someone who had his family killed by the nazis.See what I'm getting at ?

 

 

More people died by Soviet hands.

 

 

In WW2?

[Zentari]

So you quantify how evil one is by the amount one has killed ? Interesting.

Among other things.

You shouldn't and even if that's the case ( allow me to remain skeptical with all the "estimates" being thrown around and what you and a quick study shows the numbers cut it pretty close ) that does not invalidate what I said earlier.For a jew or any other party that got slammed by the nazis, they were the greatest evil simply because they hunted them.Similarly for you.

[Eichhörnchen]

^^And ofcourse Polish people didn't mind Germans butchering Jews. They merely "supported" the German idea that Jews were root cause of all evil.

 

 

The Polish kept attacking, burning down the houses and even massacring Jews well past WW2. Massacres of Jews happened as late as 1947-48 in Poland.

 

The Nazis rampant antisemitism is part of the reason they were so popular in Eastern Europe among other reasons (the fact that they were trying to put an end to the Soviets won them major brownie points). The first true mass killings in the beginning of the holocaust weren't even perpetrated by the Germans, however by Ukrainian paramilitaries in Galician, Ukraine. The holocaust can only be described as a pan-European movement to cleanse oneself of perceived unwanted minorities.