Seanchan vs Dark One

[Turok]

Okay so I started rereading the books and reading The Great Hunt reminded me how much I absolutely hate the Seanchan. I realized that I would actually rather have the Dark One win if the Seanchan were able to just take over the world if Rand won. I seriously hope they get what's comign to them and more. Like I don't think Jordan or Brandon could come up with an idea to screw them over that would be to harsh for me. Anyway was just wondering what other people thought. :)

[Muad Cheade]

If the Dark One wins, the Wheel would stop turning, so I don't understand the point.

 

Are we to "choose" between a Seanchan-dominated world (which will probably not happen) and the destruction of reality?

[Sharaman]

Oh Creator! Not the whole "they keep slaves" thing all over again?

See, Jordan drew elements from all sorts of historical and mythical eras and ll those periods all had one thing in common: some form of institutional slavery. It doesn't matter which part of the world any of us hail from; our ancestors either kept slaves or were slaves, possibly both.

[LemonPastie]

In the risk of creating a riot, I don't actually see what is that wrong about the Seanchan. For anyone in their culture, they are doing the right thing - it is only us, in our culture that says they are wrong. Sure there is the binding of channelers, but cultures develop from being at that point. In fact I would say the organisation withing the Seanchan empire is better than that of any of the countries on mainland Randland

[Sleeper]

Definitely the first one.

 

The Seanchan have some very nasty practices, but they're also a model of government efficiency. They take care of their people, as shown by the way they restored order to the nations they conquered in Randland. Furthermore, it appears that there is a relatively high level of social mobility in the Seanchan empire, which is always a nice thing to have.

 

They're still a terrible, authoritarian, regime, but they're better than the alternative.

[David Selig]

The Seanchan have their serious problems and bad sides, but when the choice is between them and what's literally the God of Evil destroys the world or turns it into something like the Shadow controlled territories during the War of Power, with the Forsaken tormenting people for fun, using them to feed Trollocs or driving them insane, the choice is pretty easy. Yeah, slavery is bad, the way damane are treated is really terrible and sickening, but for most people the life under the Seanchan rule is pretty decent.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Bah, I have nothing against the Seanchan really, but I am so sick of everyone trying to control everyone else. Damn Aes Sedai. As much as the AS annoy me, I would rather the DO and his chosen rip the crap out of them instead of the Seanchan creating a world of damane.

 

Many, many times in the series I have wished for one of the Forsaken to turn up and blitz the White Tower. They need SOMETHING to teach them. It seems the Seanchan were not enough.

[Kal11]

I like the Seanchan myself. They are certainly not perfect but what Randland culture (or real life one for that matter) is really? Their intense dislike and lack of trust for Aes Sedai speaks well of them.

[Erunion]

There is no denying it; the Seanchan have a seriously messed up culture. However, it is a culture, and they are human (and they even have some good points, like social mobility and efficient governance).

The Shadow is evil incarnate, led by a dark god.

 

Really, there is no choice here. At least if the Seanchan win, there is a chance for them to be reformed. If the Dark One wins, even if only a partial victory, the world is seriously screwed.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't like choice 1, but things seem headed that way.

[mb]

I do not hate the Seanchan, but some things about them I dislike::

-they treating various people as property (dacovale, sojhin, damane)

-they treating various people as animals (damane)

-their "omens"

 

Other than those, they are fine.

[Elend]

At the end of the day the Seanchan are only human and, like humans, will change. Their culture has the potential for advancing and, perhaps, building something greater than what the current Westlands could become.

 

The Dark One, on the other hand, is an entropic god-being that will always exist and has the ability to prevent any changes from within.

 

The choice is pretty obvious; take the one that, in the long game, could actually grow into a modern society.

 

So the Seanchan.

[Goldstar]

Honestly, the only people that really get screwed under Seanchan rule are the channelers. Everyone else pretty much goes on as normal. Better them than the DO, tbh.

[Terez]

The da'covale are also pretty screwed, and even so'jhin...I mean, why do they have to be considered property? It's hard to see Selucia that way when she is Tuon's best friend, but in the end their relationship is still one of owner/property. Egeanin had issues with it as well, when Domon wouldn't accept his role as her property.

 

But basically, I see there being some major negotiations in AMOL, though it might not go exactly as Rand wants and expects. He needs to be 'as one' with the Seanchan to have a chance at winning, and obviously Mat is a huge key to that. I suspect that the negotiations will mostly happen after Rand dies, though, because of the scene set in Nicola's Foretelling. The KC says that Rand will bind the north to the east, but it does not say that he will bind the west to the south, nor do the Aelfinn say that he will be the one to make the two 'as one'. I think only Mat and Tuon will be able to do that.

 

Specifically, I think there will be a trade-off. Tuon will be Empress of all of Randland, but she will agree to liberate the slaves, whether or not they are channelers. As we discussed on the AMOL board, it's quite possible that Tuon herself will channel and bond Mat, but in any case the consummation of their marriage - the Biblical meaning of becoming one - will probably more or less coincide with the truce. It will be interesting to see which comes first. But I also tend to suspect that Moiraine will play a part, if for no other reason than that Aviendha's vision happened before she was rescued. No doubt Aviendha's role in dealing with the Aiel is also supremely important, but I think that Moiraine will bring something to the table.

 

It's hard to figure out exactly how thing swill go down, since we obviously have the Battle of Caemlyn brewing - Demandred/Moridin vs Mat, for sure - and there are also some clues that this might set the stage for Rand's death. How much can events proceed at Merrilor, with that in mind?

[Suttree]

The da'covale are also pretty screwed, and even so'jhin...I mean, why do they have to be considered property? It's hard to see Selucia that way when she is Tuon's best friend, but in the end their relationship is still one of owner/property. Egeanin had issues with it as well, when Domon wouldn't accept his role as her property.

 

In addition we have the whole "game" of putting a'dam on males to see if they and the damane wearing the collar will die screaming. Great sport that. Oh and let's not forget the Seekers for Truth, wouldn't want to have one of them get the wrong idea about what you are up to. Nothing like big brother and not knowing who is watching to foster trust and understanding. The best is the day your sixteen year old daughter gets forcibly taken from your family to be made less than human. Aww their goes that perfect stability in all the lands they conquer thing out the window! Great dynamic in the royal family as well, the whole encouraging assassinations, kidnapping and what not. Yeah the Seanchan are just a model of how a nation should go about things the right way.

[hjustinpace]

I think Jordan consciously created parallels with the decision the UK, America, etc. faced in WWII--to ally with the Soviets or risk losing to the Nazis (whose parallels with the Shadow are well documented). They (almost certainly correctly) decided that guys currently overrunning countries and killing millions (we may not have known about the true extent of it, but the motivation and rationale was open) were the more pressing threat. But we ended up facilitating the rise of the Soviet Empire and the murder of tens of millions. Hardly an easy or comfortable choice.

 

Verbal contortions on the board notwithstanding, the Seanchan are definitely at a Soviet-level of evil. But they're not at a Nazi-Shadow level of evil. Anything Rand and the others can do to hurt the Seanchan they should, but not at the threat of losing the fight against the Shadow.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

well said. i see an awful lot of WII parallels and images throughout the books. the future looks bleak, but there will be a future. breathing time, anwyay.

[Terez]

The da'covale are also pretty screwed, and even so'jhin...I mean, why do they have to be considered property? It's hard to see Selucia that way when she is Tuon's best friend, but in the end their relationship is still one of owner/property. Egeanin had issues with it as well, when Domon wouldn't accept his role as her property.

 

In addition we have the whole "game" of putting a'dam on males to see if they and the damane wearing the collar will die screaming. Great sport that. Oh and let's not forget the Seekers for Truth, wouldn't want to have one of them get the wrong idea about what you are up to. Nothing like big brother and not knowing who is watching to foster trust and understanding. The best is the day your sixteen year old daughter gets forcibly taken from your family to be made less than human. Aww their goes that perfect stability in all the lands they conquer thing out the window! Great dynamic in the royal family as well, the whole encouraging assassinations, kidnapping and what not. Yeah the Seanchan are just a model of how a nation should go about things the right way.

Well, now you're into things that aren't really unique to the Seanchan, at least not in degree. And if we bring the Sharans into it, it seems that their slavery system is even more inhumane. Obviously, Mat will have an influence on Tuon in many areas if things go right. It was odd that there was no mention of Mat in the future Aviendha saw, and it may be that the emergence of Mat and Moiraine from Ghenjei is just as important for changing the future as whatever Aviendha will do among the Aiel. As of the time Aviendha saw the future, that emergence was far from certain, to the point that every prophecy of Mat had been fulfilled - even his part in the prophecy at the end of TOM might have been fulfilled simply by him going to Ghenjei in the first place. The Eelfinn recognized that Mat's choice led to him becoming 'the center of all', and aside from being a great general, it's obvious that Mat's refusal to accept certain Seanchan ways will be incredibly important.

 

So the point is, the Seanchan are important to the future of Randland, and the Consolidation is starting to look likely, but that doesn't mean that the Empire won't adapt to more humane practices. It seems inevitable at this point that they will, and that there has to be an agreement made before Rand can win at Shayol Ghul. Both sides will have to make sacrifices.

[MauricXe]

meh, I'm stubborn. Go Dark One! Go Moridin!

[Muad Cheade]

Demandred/Moridin vs Mat, for sure

I've seen this before. Why do people believe this?

[Terez]

Because Demandred is most likely generaling the Battle of Caemlyn, and the Band is there.

[Muad Cheade]

Ah. Gotcha. Well, isn't it likely that someone else is leading it? No one of importance (that we know) was leading the attacks on Tylee and Ituralde and Perrin. Also, Mat might not even be there to fight as he still has to wait for Grady to make a gateway at noon (maybe Perrin might see Mat in the colors and come earlier).

 

Anyways. That was off-topic. Thanks for the answer though.

[Entreri]

The Seanchan are so full of themselves, they need to get royally spanked.

[Puny]

Yes a whole lot of people need spankings but I´d rather get one from the Seanchan then the Dark One. If the Seanchan win atleast you have fair chance of fighting back, and the Wheel keeps turning. If the Dark One wins there is instability and chaos at best and the Wheel smashed to little pieces when at worst.

[Zhipp]

If the Seanchan take over the world the channelers are mostly screwed, if the dark one wins everything and everyone is completely screwed.

Hardly a difficult choice.