A Demandred thread.

[yoniy0]

You don't seem to get where we're coming from. It's not that it makes sense to read it in case there's something there he doesn't know (which an arrogant man might not do, even if it's foolish), at least not exclusively. It's that he has to collect intel on how folks fight nowadays, and that has nothing to do with his self-esteem. As such your argument about his character is irrelevant (not that I support it anyway, but that's beside the point).

[Tiinker]

I take it you've never heard of Thermopylae..

 

Why would you assume that? Because I scoff at 300? The movie and the comic it was based on were not meant to demonstrate historical accuracy (unless you consider the framing device of the unreliable narrator to parallel real-life propaganda about Thermopylae). Using them to discuss tactics and logistics is laughable, is all. It's like referring to Die Hard as a serious reference on the physics of explosions. You'll note that after the "lol" I was polite enough to respond further, so I don't know what you think you're gaining by replying to me in this manner.

 

I said it because it just seemed like you were using his mention of it just to try and ridicule his position rather than anything else, because he wasn't (I hope) referring to the fantasy action but the Gates of Fire setup.

 

Wasn't anything personal, I'm just making a remark because it caught my eye.

[Massive]

Why does it matter one way or another again ?

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

You don't seem to get where we're coming from. It's not that it makes sense to read it in case there's something there he doesn't know (which an arrogant man might not do, even if it's foolish), at least not exclusively. It's that he has to collect intel on how folks fight nowadays, and that has nothing to do with his self-esteem. As such your argument about his character is irrelevant (not that I support it anyway, but that's beside the point).

 

And that is what I am disagreeing with (and why I brought up the art of war in the first place). The rules of war really don't change, what applied in the WoP still applies in modern times. Demandred is gaining little by reading this book because we know he was one of the foremost generals for both sides during that war. As far as gaining Intel perhaps but Matt didn't write that book so I'm not sure what he can really gain from that either. Fog and steel is a manual not a diary.

[Massive]

Kiriath Til Asdod, I appreciate the fact that you are a one man crusade against the mob of know-it-all-ism. Haha people coming at you with "oh I aced my logic exams" and sh** lmao

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Somebody has got to fight the good fight.

[yoniy0]

Yeah, there's romance in fighting alone for a cause. It certainly doesn't mean you're wrong, but it doesn't mean you're right either

 

As far as gaining Intel perhaps but Matt didn't write that book so I'm not sure what he can really gain from that either. Fog and steel is a manual not a diary.

It's Mat, and while he didn't write the thing, it was written at a time now considered to represent the height of military advancement. Most Randlanders will use the principles described in it to decide upon a strategy. It should give a good idea of what principles they rely on (for example, were I to wage war against Germany, I'd sure like to know whether it's 19th century Germany or mid 20th century). And even if it didn't, even if it were to hold only minor clues, there would've been little reason not to read it.

You've been in the military. Didn't you have a standing order to collect strategy papers whenever possible? I know from my experience that every little piece gets analyzed.

[Terez]

Kiriath Til Asdod, I appreciate the fact that you are a one man crusade against the mob of know-it-all-ism. Haha people coming at you with "oh I aced my logic exams" and sh** lmao

It doesn't have anything to do with know-it-all-ism.

[Massive]

Ahh yes of course *knuckles his forehead*

[raitora]

Here's a pic I drew of him - http://yaywewon.tumblr.com/post/4985640252

 

*avoids reading rest of thread for fear of spoilers*

[jballer08]

There is a reason we have received basically zero information on what Demandred has been doing for the entire series. From a literary standpoint thos usually means the character will have a very important part to play at the end. It makes complete sense for Demandred to be Roedran as it allows him to build a power base in the center of Rand's empire while also keeping him within striking distance of the Seanchan, Andor, etc. Plus the theory (Terez I believe this is yours...) that Talamanes' pipe that was given to him by Roedran has a "tracer" on it makes sense if you consider this would also allow Demandred to keep an eye on one of the most elite fighting units in the world. Remember, Graendel said herself that if people expected you to act a certain way they would not see what you were really up to. I think Demandred has been playing everyone for fools and will have the Light's military forces on the ropes for a good portion of AMOL. I would not be surprised if the attack on Caemlyn at the end of TOM was his or, if there were similar attacks offscreen in Cairhein, Tear, Illian, etc. He wants to destroy Lews Therin/Rand and that also means destroying everything Rand has accomplished. Demandred is very much like Sun Tzu in my mind. This guy is good.

[mb]

I recall someone quoting Sanderson telling that we would be able to figure out what Demandred has been doing.

 

From reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages, Demandred might have been behind the turned channelers at Black Tower.

[Terez]

Taim was behind it for certain, but we're not sure where the plan originated. Moridin is the one who found the dreamspike, and we know that the plan for the Battle of Caemlyn began in TPOD at the latest, as that's when they started building the wall (which was impractical without the dreamspike). And of course, the dreamspike was necessary for them to pull off the mass turning that is apparently going on now - the Aes Sedai were probably just incorporated into the plan. There's nothing in particular to suggest that Demandred is behind the turning other than his involvement with the Black Tower and his presumed involvement with the plan, but it seems to me that Demandred and Moridin are working together on this one.

 

PS - I just updated the Demandred FAQ page, particularly the bits on the Legion of the Dragon and the Borderland Rulers (both under the multitasking section).

[Muad Cheade]

The problem I have with Demandred being Roedran is that ruling Murandy has its military disadvantages.

 

For example:

1). Talmanes left when the Murandians were large enough to challenge the Band. That would put them at 30-40,000/

2). Those forces are significantly smaller than those of the neighboring factions (Seanchan, Andor, Illian.) Striking into Ghealdan would have made sense if it were done earlier when Masema could have been manipulated into joining and Perrin was still searching for Faile.

3). Roedran/Demandred can't expect an entire army to fight alongside Shadowspawn, meaning the Murandians would have to fight solo against larger forces.

4). This late in the game the sides are virtually split in three: Seanchan, Rand, and the Shadow. It'd be hard for a ruler to pull off declaring war against Rand like Sammael did because the growing evidence is everywhere if that makes sense.

[Terez]

The problem I have with Demandred being Roedran is that ruling Murandy has its military disadvantages.

 

For example:

1). Talmanes left when the Murandians were large enough to challenge the Band. That would put them at 30-40,000/

2). Those forces are significantly smaller than those of the neighboring factions (Seanchan, Andor, Illian.)

I think you are underestimating their numbers. If Talmanes was worried, they'd have to be extremely outnumbered.

 

Striking into Ghealdan would have made sense if it were done earlier when Masema could have been manipulated into joining and Perrin was still searching for Faile.

I don't know about other people, but I don't recall Ghealdan being a presumed target.

 

3). Roedran/Demandred can't expect an entire army to fight alongside Shadowspawn, meaning the Murandians would have to fight solo against larger forces.

I think the idea at the moment is to trap the Band between the Shadowspawn and the outside forces, like the Shaido at the Battle of Cairhien, but with more resistance inside the city itself.

 

4). This late in the game the sides are virtually split in three: Seanchan, Rand, and the Shadow. It'd be hard for a ruler to pull off declaring war against Rand like Sammael did because the growing evidence is everywhere if that makes sense.

It doesn't really make much sense at all, considering the state of affairs in Caemlyn. Roedran, the alter ego, is just a small part of that. Murandy was little more than Demandred's base of operations, and a chunk of soldiers to add to the mix. The Legion might be another chunk, and so might the thousands of mercenaries outside Caemlyn. And then there is the Black Tower. And the adjustable dreamspike.

[Sharaman]

Murandy is perfectly located as a base camp assuming it has a portal stone or Waygate, (which is almost guaranteed). Think of it as a secure, secret logistic centre located in heart of enemy territory. The numbers that may be there at the moment are hardly very relevant since, at any time, the Dark can import 1/4 million trollocs and strike out in any direction at Andor, Carhein, Tear, Ebou Dar, etc.

Always assuming that Demandred is located in Murandy....

[Finnssss22]

The problem I have with Demandred being Roedran is that ruling Murandy has its military disadvantages.

 

For example:

1). Talmanes left when the Murandians were large enough to challenge the Band. That would put them at 30-40,000/

2). Those forces are significantly smaller than those of the neighboring factions (Seanchan, Andor, Illian.)

 

I think you are underestimating their numbers. If Talmanes was worried, they'd have to be extremely outnumbered.

 

 

Definitely agree there.

The Band numbered somewhere around 30k and could be closer to 33-34k depending on how big a Masons Banner is and how many X-bow men Talmanes didn't take with him into Altara.

 

I think it would take upwards of 50k and prolly more to really worry Talmanes. Even without Mat, they are still a well trained force, an Elite force, especially with those X-bows.

[Muad Cheade]

I think you are underestimating their numbers. If Talmanes was worried, they'd have to be extremely outnumbered.

I don't believe Talmanes is said to be worried just that he moved before Roedran could turn on him. He was attempting to avoid a war and to keep his word to Egwene.

 

I don't know about other people, but I don't recall Ghealdan being a presumed target.

My point was that The Shadow controlling Murandy would have made the most sense if the had invaded Ghealdan earlier in order to defeat Perrin, as the other neighboring nations are too powerful.

 

I think the idea at the moment is to trap the Band between the Shadowspawn and the outside forces, like the Shaido at the Battle of Cairhien, but with more resistance inside the city itself.

What is the likelihood that Demandred can order an entire army to fight with Shadowspawn? Not all of them could possibly be Darkfriends and Compulsion on that large of a scale is impossible. Also, Roedran did not recruit selectively like Rahvin and Sammael. He just rallied all the nobles and their retainers to his banners.

 

It doesn't really make much sense at all, considering the state of affairs in Caemlyn. Roedran, the alter ego, is just a small part of that. Murandy was little more than Demandred's base of operations, and a chunk of soldiers to add to the mix. The Legion might be another chunk, and so might the thousands of mercenaries outside Caemlyn. And then there is the Black Tower. And the adjustable dreamspike.

My point was the lines are clearly drawn. Seanchan. Rand. The Shadow. Unlike the time before (when the Forsaken ruled nations), to attack one of the three is to be allied with one of the others. I also find it unlikely that those entire groups are comprised solely of Darkfriends. The Legion had 15,000 men in the first month only and I've seen it speculated that they would currently have 70,000 half-trained men. Add that to the 10,000 mercenaries and 40-50,000 Murandians, and I find it unlikely that 130,000 men are all conveniently Darkfriends.

[yoniy0]

They don't have to be. They only need to be otherwise occupied when the Shadow masses Shadowspawn in Murandy, before they're ready to launch an assault. Murandy does make a good staging ground.

 

Regardless, this thread was originated to discuss the manner in which Demandred managed to keep an eye on Rand. I don't recall seeing anyone come up with a good idea yet. Do you really not have any ideas on that?

[MasterAblar]

They don't have to be. They only need to be otherwise occupied when the Shadow masses Shadowspawn in Murandy, before they're ready to launch an assault. Murandy does make a good staging ground.

 

Regardless, this thread was originated to discuss the manner in which Demandred managed to keep an eye on Rand. I don't recall seeing anyone come up with a good idea yet. Do you really not have any ideas on that?

 

I think simply being in charge of the BT would be enough. As Osangar is basically always around Rand it would make nice parallel with Mesaana and Arangar who would hold similar positions with the WT and Egwene. And graendal seemed to say it as an afterthought so perhaps Demandred isn't supposed to be keeping as close an eye on Rand as Osangar.

[herid]

They don't have to be. They only need to be otherwise occupied when the Shadow masses Shadowspawn in Murandy, before they're ready to launch an assault. Murandy does make a good staging ground.

 

Regardless, this thread was originated to discuss the manner in which Demandred managed to keep an eye on Rand. I don't recall seeing anyone come up with a good idea yet. Do you really not have any ideas on that?

yes, this was sadly forgotten. There are several possibilities that I see.

 

1. The most boring one is that Demandred is doing it through the Black Asha'man with Rand. Dashiva is there of course, but Demandred meddles there as well judging by his orders to them to kill Rand in WH. This would be somewhat strange, however, as Dashiva should be able to handle them by himself.

2. Black Ajah sworn to Rand like Elza. When Mesaana and Demandred ask Moridin to help them free Semirhage after her capture there is this exchange:

"She disobeyed," Moridin said. "She was not to try to kill al'Thor."

"She didn't intend to," Mesaana said hastily. "Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill."

-tGS, Prologue

"Their woman there" is most likely Elza.

Or it could be Verin. She was Black after all and might have had a Forsaken boss.

3. Something more interesting like DFs among the Aiel, possibly Aiel Wise Ones, reporting to Demandred. There is a theory that Sorilea is a DF for example.

There are some DFs there for sure. Someone helped Katerine escape by poisoning her guards and that pretty much had to be an Aiel.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

[Removed]

[yoniy0]

I think simply being in charge of the BT would be enough. As Osangar is basically always around Rand it would make nice parallel with Mesaana and Arangar who would hold similar positions with the WT and Egwene. And graendal seemed to say it as an afterthought so perhaps Demandred isn't supposed to be keeping as close an eye on Rand as Osangar.

Having some influence in the BT isn't at all like keeping an eye on Rand; impersonating Reene Harfor would've been preferable. It has it's other strong points, but that's not what I was asking. Clearly, Demandred was expected to be closer to Rand than any other Forsaken except Osan'gar. Why? And how?

[herid]

Clearly, Demandred was expected to be closer to Rand than any other Forsaken except Osan'gar.

not necessarily. It likely means that he has people watching Rand and reporting to him. None of the others except for Moridin know where Demandred is stationed so they are clearly not assuming that he is watching Rand from up close personally.

[Sharaman]

There's another Black sister (Fera??) with Rand's lot. Egwene notes the name, I think. She could be a Demandred mole.

Clearly from the Semirhage escape attempt, the Dark had fairly detailed knowledge of not just Rand but of others in his camp. The attempt was made on a day when Caddy would be out chatting up WOs and Daighan, the only sister on guard without a warder, was killed, whereas the others were incapacitated in a way that wouldn't alarm their warders.

I suppose that intel could all have come from Elza but it would be prudent to assume that there were/are other DFs in Rand's close vicinity. Post VoG, this becomes more difficult because he has that new ability to sniff out DF.