A Demandred thread.

[crash]

TGS,Prologue � Graendal wonders where Demandred�s rule is. If he were with the Borderlanders her spies would have told her. borderlands is out

Demandred and Mesaana plead with Moridin to help free Semirhage but he angrily refuses because she injured Rand. Demandred reports that his rule is secure. (TGS,Prologue)

 

Aran'gar, Cyndane, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien, Osan'gar and Semirhage respond to the call of the Choedan Kal and Travel to Shadar Logoth to stop Rand. Demandred is forced to run when he is confronted by Damer, Sarene and Corele. (WH,Ch35) Why?

 

TPoD,Ch29 - When Rand feels saidin and his quarters are destroyed, he wonders if it might be Demandred or perhaps Asmodean returned. Asmodean is dead

 

Demandred arrives at Shayol Ghul where he meets Shaidar Haran. In the Pit of Doom, he tells the Great Lord that Rahvin is dead and that Lanfear, Asmodean and Moghedien are missing. The Great Lord confirms that Rahvin and Asmodean are dead. He asks if Demandred will use balefire and tempts him with the title Nae'blis. He then gives a list of orders. (LoC,Prologue) What was the list of orders?

 

LoC,Ch6 - Sammael thinks events to the south (of Arad Doman) have Demandred's mark on them.

 

TFoH,Ch3 - Demandred went over to the Great Lord because of his envy of Lews Therin.

 

TFoH,Prologue - Sammael is angry that Demandred is lording over the rest of them now that Ishamael is dead.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure if those were questions. In case they were, even Demandred isn't above a combined circle of three (and Flinn isn't that weak to begin with). In TPoD it wasn't Demandred, it was Osan'gar (in his Dashiva persona) who led the attempt on Rand's life. We still don't know precisely what the DO wanted of Demandred, or exactly what it was that he achieved in LoC. Other statements are correct, although it's not 100% certain that Sammael was talking about south of where Graendal and he currently were.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

First off there is no way Demandred spent anytime reading any books on warfare. The man considers himself to be the most brilliant man alive when it comes to war. And if nobody has pointed this out yet the most read and acclaimed book on war in our world is what 3000 years old? The Art of War is still the standard when it comes to war and tactics.

[Terez]

First off there is no way Demandred spent anytime reading any books on warfare. The man considers himself to be the most brilliant man alive when it comes to war.

So? There have been several logical reasons already given for why he might have read it.

 

And if nobody has pointed this out yet the most read and acclaimed book on war in our world is what 3000 years old? The Art of War is still the standard when it comes to war and tactics.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

[Bluedust9]

First off there is no way Demandred spent anytime reading any books on warfare. The man considers himself to be the most brilliant man alive when it comes to war. And if nobody has pointed this out yet the most read and acclaimed book on war in our world is what 3000 years old? The Art of War is still the standard when it comes to war and tactics.

 

Well! Tell Mr. Medar we all say hello, since you seem so personal with him.

 

Most brilliant tacticians are the ones wise enough to know they don't know everything, how's Sammael doing nowadays?

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Well for starters terez you are making a lot of assumptions about Demandreds identity. And no I don't give a sh** what logic you use or how much time you spent looking up who demi might be. The fact is you at best have an educated guess but until we see it in print, I'm not going to take it for fact and neither should anyone else. Demandreds has been shown to be vain, cocky, and I cannot imagine him wasting time on reading a book on war when he considers himself to be the greatest man ever. Personally I think he is, or has been, worthless. The reason I bring up the Art of War is because strategy doesn't really change that much with time, tech ( or lack thereof), or insurmountable numbers. Sun Tzu led his army of roughly thirty thousand and beat a force of ten times that number.3000 years later the Vietnamese did basically the same to the US using Sun Tzu's tactics. At worst it was a draw for them.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Terez has the right of it in this. At least she uses some evidence/logic in her opinion. You state you are not going to accpet Terez's post because it is at best an educated guess, then immediately contradict by posting your opinions based on absolutely nothing...

 

Demandred shows his willingness to learn, and his capacity to at the cleansing. He admits Rand's plan is brilliant. Now it doesnt seem like much, but admiting your most hated enemy has a brilliant plan is actually a very, very hard and insightful thing to do.

[Terez]

Even though BBM himself has spoken...

 

Well for starters terez you are making a lot of assumptions about Demandreds identity. And no I don't give a sh** what logic you use or how much time you spent looking up who demi might be. The fact is you at best have an educated guess but until we see it in print, I'm not going to take it for fact and neither should anyone else.

Okay, I'm going to use 'straw man' correctly this time. I never said you or anyone else should take it as fact - I only questioned your logic in that particular post. So, you said 'well for starters' and then you changed the subject. That's bad form.

 

Demandreds has been shown to be vain, cocky, and I cannot imagine him wasting time on reading a book on war when he considers himself to be the greatest man ever.

You don't get to be the greatest man ever if you quit reading books. Being great - especially being a great general - implies that you have an open mind to learning new things. Demandred wrote books, and he's not Tairy Goodkind The Yearded One Zod, so he probably really does read fantasy war books before pretending to know everything about them (which is, of course, quite a different thing from pretending to know everything about magic dragons war).

 

Personally I think he is, or has been, worthless.

This is a pretty popular opinion.

 

The reason I bring up the Art of War is because strategy doesn't really change that much with time, tech ( or lack thereof), or insurmountable numbers. Sun Tzu led his army of roughly thirty thousand and beat a force of ten times that number.3000 years later the Vietnamese did basically the same to the US using Sun Tzu's tactics. At worst it was a draw for them.

You say that as if it is the only war book anyone reads. Just because it has eternal truths in it does not mean that other dissertations on the subject are rendered obsolete.

[Aquarius]

In a battle (not the war in general) one thing reigns above all: numbers.Strategy and tactics can get you a long way but it boils down to this: who has the most meat for the meatgrinder.

You should ask the great generals in history about this, how they won battles heavily outnumbered, from Rommel to Napoleon, to Lee. even at sea.

 

In war however, when the effect of so many battles add up to the sheer cost of the war, numbers matter far more than strategy.

[Terez]

It depends. If the numbers are mostly Shadowspawn which are being fought by a small number of channelers with the nifty weaves of Vows, then numbers don't mean much. And with the Lightside channelers teaming up, the 10-25% of them that are Darkfriends don't seem to stand a chance. I'm sure Demandred and Moridin have some great things up their sleeves, but we know it won't be enough.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

I'm not saying I think demandred is a great general or that he is the greatest man ever. I'm saying he believes those things. When in this series have we seen one forsaken be open-minded about anything that these so-called primitives have to offer? That is probably their biggest downfall. They consistently fail to realize that the 3rd agers have anything of value to teach them. They sit in their ivory towers and don't realize how stupid they have been until Rand/Moriane/Nyn/Eg smoke them. As far as Demandred reading a book on war, I just don't see it as realistic given the things we KNOW about him i.e. extremely prideful, a very accomplished general during AOL, and generally filled with over confidence in his abilities. This does not sound like a person who would sit down and read a book on a subject that he feels he is the best in the world at. The strategy hasn't changed in our world in three thousand years, only the tools used to accomplish the job. In WoT the tools are the same or worse than in AoL. Nobody has reinvented the wheel here. As far as I know The Art of War is still considered the Holy Bible when it comes to war and is still required reading amongst many war colleges worldwide. It isn't the only book on war, but by far it is still the best.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Terez has the right of it in this. At least she uses some evidence/logic in her opinion. You state you are not going to accpet Terez's post because it is at best an educated guess, then immediately contradict by posting your opinions based on absolutely nothing...

 

Demandred shows his willingness to learn, and his capacity to at the cleansing. He admits Rand's plan is brilliant. Now it doesnt seem like much, but admiting your most hated enemy has a brilliant plan is actually a very, very hard and insightful thing to do.

 

Well my problem with lots of Terez's posts is that she often states her opinion as fact and then makes lots of other assumptions off of those "facts". The only thing I've said that is my opinion is that I cannot see Demi wasting time reading a book when he considers himself a genius. Is it possible sure, but not very plausible given his personality. Reread the section about Demi you just pointed out. He states Rands plan is brilliant, but ltt wasn't as brilliant as everyone thought...nowhere near as brilliant as he (demi) is. Straight from his PoV. Supremely cocky in his abilities. I don't see what you are referring to when you say he has a willingness to learn though. Mind explaining? Admitting your most hated enemy has a good plan isn't insightful or very hard as long as you aren't a complete idiot. In fact that is what any decent leader would do. One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to assume your enemy is stupid just because he is your enemy.

 

And for the guy who said numbers matter more than anything, read the art of war, or watch the movie 300. Numbers are one of the least important aspects of warfare. Ask Alexander the Great or Patton or Hannibal or Khan or any other God of war. Matt is constantly outnumbered in all of his battles around Cairhein, and when he goes up against the Seanchan. Yet using superior tactics, speed, and to an extent psy-ops he dominates.

 

My apologies for the horrid punctuation, I'm posting from my phone and I don't feel like fixing all of my errors at this point.

[Terez]

Well my problem with lots of Terez's posts is that she often states her opinion as fact and then makes lots of other assumptions off of those "facts".

I rarely state my opinion as fact, and I certainly didn't do so in my response to you.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

In a battle (not the war in general) one thing reigns above all: numbers.Strategy and tactics can get you a long way but it boils down to this: who has the most meat for the meatgrinder.

You should ask the great generals in history about this, how they won battles heavily outnumbered, from Rommel to Napoleon, to Lee. even at sea.

 

In war however, when the effect of so many battles add up to the sheer cost of the war, numbers matter far more than strategy.

 

Seriously does anyone posting here know anything about war at all? Over the course of a long war larger numbers are often more of a hindrance. You have to feed them, you have to cloth them, you have to provide arms for them, and horses or whatever traveling along with medicine/first aid, and every other basic need. It is way more costly and therefore less efficient to have a large army in the overall scheme of things. Speed is the most important aspect of any fighting force and a big bloated army moves very slowly. Matt basically quoted The Art of War when he gave his diatribe about speed being the life of a soldier. I vote that nobody post about this subject unless you know what you are talking about. A lot of you are making yourselves look very foolish.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Well my problem with lots of Terez's posts is that she often states her opinion as fact and then makes lots of other assumptions off of those "facts".

I rarely state my opinion as fact, and I certainly didn't do so in my response to you.

 

Umm hasn't your whole stance about Demandred reading the fog of war based on your belief that Demandred is Roderan? You have consistently shot down everyone else's thoughts on who he might be. FFS you did a whole article telling everyone why Demandred is Roderan or in control of him at least. Now you are saying you don't think it is a fact?

[Zentari]

Seriously does anyone posting here know anything about war at all? Over the course of a long war larger numbers are often more of a hindrance. You have to feed them, you have to cloth them, you have to provide arms for them, and horses or whatever traveling along with medicine/first aid, and every other basic need. It is way more costly and therefore less efficient to have a large army in the overall scheme of things. Speed is the most important aspect of any fighting force and a big bloated army moves very slowly. Matt basically quoted The Art of War when he gave his diatribe about speed being the life of a soldier. I vote that nobody post about this subject unless you know what you are talking about. A lot of you are making yourselves look very foolish.

I am well aware of the logistics nightmare numbers like these would require, it is as always though a question of numbers.Do you have enough equipment and or supply lines to feed them or do you need more?

 

You last two lines can come off as extremely rude to put it bluntly.

[yoniy0]

Seriously does anyone posting here know anything about war at all?

[...]

I vote that nobody post about this subject unless you know what you are talking about. A lot of you are making yourselves look very foolish.

First, be careful how you express yourself. You might want to take a look at our Code of Conduct.

 

Second, do you mind telling us what your military training was?

[MierinWru]

I vote that nobody post about this subject unless you know what you are talking about. A lot of you are making yourselves look very foolish.

 

Pot, meet kettle.

[yoniy0]

Pot, meet kettle.

Is that the sophisticated version of "I'm rubber, you're glue"?

 

Please everyone, let's discuss the issues and not the people making them. If anyone here has real-life experience with the 'art of war' that's relevant, we're always glad to learn from professionals. But it's by no means required to post

Fair disclosure, I served as an officer in a non-combatant unit for several years. As such my tactical training was rather limited and completely theoretical (but even I can tell you that numbers do matter in combat).

[DPT24]

In a battle (not the war in general) one thing reigns above all: numbers.Strategy and tactics can get you a long way but it boils down to this: who has the most meat for the meatgrinder.

You should ask the great generals in history about this, how they won battles heavily outnumbered, from Rommel to Napoleon, to Lee. even at sea.

 

In war however, when the effect of so many battles add up to the sheer cost of the war, numbers matter far more than strategy.

 

Seriously does anyone posting here know anything about war at all? Over the course of a long war larger numbers are often more of a hindrance. You have to feed them, you have to cloth them, you have to provide arms for them, and horses or whatever traveling along with medicine/first aid, and every other basic need. It is way more costly and therefore less efficient to have a large army in the overall scheme of things. Speed is the most important aspect of any fighting force and a big bloated army moves very slowly. Matt basically quoted The Art of War when he gave his diatribe about speed being the life of a soldier. I vote that nobody post about this subject unless you know what you are talking about. A lot of you are making yourselves look very foolish.

 

 

Large numbers can be difficult, but if you look at what happened in the American Civil War, you'd know that in the end it's better to have too many then too few. By the end Lee was heavily outnumbered and was unable to hold off Grant. Same thing in Georgia against Sherman. WW2, the Allied Armies outnumbered the Axis towards the end of the war, and last time I checked... the Allies won the war.

[Grig]

And for the guy who said numbers matter more than anything, read the art of war, or watch the movie 300

 

lol.

 

As for numbers being a hindrance, that depends on the type of war. Is it a war of attrition? Are battle lines clearly drawn? Are you conquering or defending territory? Are your supply trains stretched thin? There are many variables which affect how much of an advantage one draws from numbers.

 

In the situation in the books, numbers do not significantly affect the question of whether the DO wins or loses. There are magical end-games that determine whether he breaks free or not, which, LotR style, the armies will at best be a diversion to. The armies will affect the state the world is in after the war is over, though. And numbers definitely affect your odds in an all-out existential war (with channelers as a force multiplier, of course). Defending at choke-points similarly acts as a force multiplier in certain battles, but as seen in the case of Tarwin's Gap in EotW without divine intervention any choke point only holds until you run out of meat for the grinder. If we're accepting "300" as a primer for battle, you'll notice that they all died. If the 300 was the army, the Persians would have had their way with Sparta. One can win against a numerically superior force, assuming that there is a end condition that doesn't involve extermination. If the end condition is extermination of one side or the other, they can either hope for a stalemate or divine intervention.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were failing to develop the V2 before the war and attacking mother Russia. If he had done the first and hadn't done the second I'm of the opinion we would all be speaking German or Russian. As far as military training, I was a team leader and company commanders assistant C co 1/325 Ft Bragg. Lightening attack parachute battalion, cross trained with SF and CI. As far as my knowledge, I'm not saying anything that profound. Everything I have said and everything Matt has said about war is straight from The Art of War. I'm not pretending to be a brilliant tactican, but I understand them to a degree.

[Finnssss22]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were failing to develop the V2 before the war and attacking mother Russia. If he had done the first and hadn't done the second I'm of the opinion we would all be speaking German or Russian. As far as military training, I was a team leader and company commanders assistant C co 1/325 Ft Bragg. Lightening attack parachute battalion, cross trained with SF and CI. As far as my knowledge, I'm not saying anything that profound. Everything I have said and everything Matt has said about war is straight from The Art of War. I'm not pretending to be a brilliant tactican, but I understand them to a degree.

 

 

We can talk all day about his mistakes and which were the largest heh but Hitler's biggest mistake was being Hitler. He constantly ignored the advice of his top Generals because he believed he knew better (arguably, that it was his "divine" right to know better heh).

 

 

Madoc Comadrin's Fog and Steel was only written about 1600 years ago not 3000 years ago and it is has been noted on more than one occasion that this time and leading into Hawkwing's reign is considered the height of martial military knowledge and accomplishment in this Age.

 

I have seen some pretty whacked theories in regards to this book. I have seen it suggested that Madoc wrote it going of off books written in the AoL and even that Demandred authored one such book or even that Demandred himself wrote Fog and Steel heh.

 

First off, even at the end of the War of Power/Shadow, channeling was still being used extensively in warfare and advanced technologies were still present if not even close to the level it was in the beginning.

It's like giving a tank commander an Aircraft carrier tactics manual heh. Some of the basics are shared but the methods and practical uses are night and day.

 

 

Second, from Mat's memories we know that not only was Madoc a real person but he was also a military genius. He was more than capable of writing such a book on his own without much help from other sources.

 

Third, in regards to Demandred and writing books, lets go over his history a second. Leading up to the drilling of the bore, no one other than historians even really knew what War was. Does it really seem feasible that Demy would of written such a book during that time? I mean we already know that Balthamel was the guy for primitive cultures so why is Demy even being suggested for such a book? What knowledge would Demy even have on war previous to the Bore being drilled?

 

So now War breaks out and in the beginning Demy was still on the side of the Light. In those early years the Light got hammered hard and they were doing everything they could just to hold on before they learned how to truly fight back effectively...when would Demandred have the time to write such a book and more importantly how would he even have the knowledge yet to do so. He, like everyone else was still learning.

Then Demy goes to the Shadow and just when or more importantly why would he write such a book at that time? Generals do not write books DURING a war.

 

In the end, the only even remotely plausible suggestion I have seen is that if Roedran is Demy, that he could of possibly wrote the book Talmanes now has but then it wouldn't actually be Fog and Steel anymore either, it's Demandred's book.

Again though, in the time since Demandred has been freed from the Bore, he's been pretty damned busy and wasting the time to write such a book seems awfully silly, no?

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

In a battle (not the war in general) one thing reigns above all: numbers.Strategy and tactics can get you a long way but it boils down to this: who has the most meat for the meatgrinder.

You should ask the great generals in history about this, how they won battles heavily outnumbered, from Rommel to Napoleon, to Lee. even at sea.

 

In war however, when the effect of so many battles add up to the sheer cost of the war, numbers matter far more than strategy.

 

Seriously does anyone posting here know anything about war at all? Over the course of a long war larger numbers are often more of a hindrance. You have to feed them, you have to cloth them, you have to provide arms for them, and horses or whatever traveling along with medicine/first aid, and every other basic need. It is way more costly and therefore less efficient to have a large army in the overall scheme of things. Speed is the most important aspect of any fighting force and a big bloated army moves very slowly. Matt basically quoted The Art of War when he gave his diatribe about speed being the life of a soldier. I vote that nobody post about this subject unless you know what you are talking about. A lot of you are making yourselves look very foolish.

 

My apologies, that was rude of me. Warfare is not Command and Conquer with an unlimited supply troops, supplies, etc. Its all about cost vs reward. If you engage in a war that you will win, but will destroy your economy have you really won? We had to go in and rebuild Japan after WW2 because they had over extended themselves (to a lesser extent we had bombed them but they didn't have the infrastructure in place to support a war for much longer anyway). Remember the ultimate goal of war isn't to win every battle, it is to frighten your enemy into not fighting. Least amount of lives and resources used along this path. Hence the reason the US government has added to the defense budget on Psy-Ops; 4.7 billion dollars in 2009, more than doubling what it spent in 2003.

[Muad Cheade]

Personally, I don't believe Roedran is Demandred. A proxy, maybe. The fact that Roedran, who is said to be more dissolute than Mat and rules over a completely fractured nation, suddenly has a brilliant plan to unify his nation and give him more power than any Murandian king in centuries possibly ever is troubling.