Saidin not fully cleansed

[Dark Justice]

why would the taint in the ways go back into saidar?

that really doesnt make sence at all.

[Luckers]

Hey! I'm old! I'm so old im ancient! Stop treating me like a kid!

 

Now if you'll excuse me, its nap time, and mummy gets upset when i don't go to sleep on time.

 

*turns and walks off in a huff*

 

As for the Ways and saidin (not saidar)... it went the first way because the taint was present in the weaves that made the ways, it wont go back because the direction is one way... the power made the ways, the ways do not influence the power.

[Simple Gleeman]

I am still worried that the taint in the Ways might flow back into Saidin.

 

I don't think the Ways are directly connected with the One Power. The decaying of the ways is a direct result of the taint that was on saidin when they were created.

 

Besides' date=' its very likely that [i']saidar[/i] was also used in conjunction with saidin to create the Ways - "the greatest things in the Age of Legends were always done with men and women working together" - and saidar hasn't been reverse tainted by the Ways.

 

Also, actually tainting saidin was presumably very difficult to do, otherwise the Dark One would simply have tained both pools of the One Power as soon as he was free. Whatever method was used to Seal the Dark One up must have provided a vulnerability in the Source for him to exploit.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, in the same way that the taint was an effect of the True Power, but not the True Power itself, Mahcin Shin and the decay of the Ways are an effect of the taint, and not the taint itself. Therefore the Ways cannot cause the taint to reappear in/on saidin.

[bjclinton]

Hey "The Dice Again", what part of mass are you from??

[Thor]

I am still worried that the taint in the Ways might flow back into Saidin.

 

I don't think the Ways are directly connected with the One Power. The decaying of the ways is a direct result of the taint that was on saidin when they were created.

 

Besides' date=' its very likely that [i']saidar[/i] was also used in conjunction with saidin to create the Ways - "the greatest things in the Age of Legends were always done with men and women working together" - and saidar hasn't been reverse tainted by the Ways.

 

Also, actually tainting saidin was presumably very difficult to do, otherwise the Dark One would simply have tained both pools of the One Power as soon as he was free. Whatever method was used to Seal the Dark One up must have provided a vulnerability in the Source for him to exploit.

 

The reason why DO tainted only Saidin is because only the male Aes Sedai were there when they resealed the bore.

 

And I really don't think the ways had anything to do with Saidar, since it was the male aes sedai who created them to thank the Ogiers for offering them refuge.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Hey! I'm old! I'm so old im ancient! Stop treating me like a kid!

 

Now if you'll excuse me, its nap time, and mummy gets upset when i don't go to sleep on time.

 

*turns and walks off in a huff*

That's okay Luckers, I don't hold it against you that you're too young to know any better. Now go play while the adults talk. (j/k)

 

*hands Luckers a lollipop*

 

Hey "The Dice Again", what part of mass are you from??

Metrowest, Framingham to be exact...

 

Back on topic, I can't see how the Ways could possibly feed the Taint back into Saidin. As has been said before, the Ways are a self perpetuating construct made with Saidin, but they don't have a continuous connection to the True Source. If there is no connection, there can be no re-tainting.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Metrowest, Framingham to be exact...

 

No kidding? I used to live just off of Route 9, right on the Ashland border. The Marathon ran by my house every year.

 

Small world.

[TheDiceAgain...]

The apartments on Ash Street? I used to pass by them every day on my way home. (I lived in Ashland for a few years, on Eliot St. right off of 126)

[RobertAlexWillis]

No, one of the duplexes up on Waverly Street. That hill with the sharp turn at the bottom. Honestly, its been 16 years, I have no idea if the place even looks the same any more. But the 5 mile mark of the Marathon was right at the bottom of the hill.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Ah, now I know where you're talking about. Not too far from my home bar in my dart league. (One of the great bar names of all time - The Chicken Bone Saloon)

[RobertAlexWillis]

lol ... well, since we moved just before my 14th birthday, I wasn't much on the bar scene ... I'll take your word for it.

[Luckers]

Your mean!

 

*sucks on his lollipop*.

[Simple Gleeman]

The reason why DO tainted only Saidin is because only the male Aes Sedai were there when they resealed the bore.

 

Yes. And why didn't he also taint saidar? Are you saying he tainted saidin as an act of revenge?

 

Tainting the True Source provides the Dark One with a undisputable advantage. The Power is the only way to fight the Dark One - you can't seal him up with mortar and brick or kill him with a sword. Screwing with his enemies abilities to use the Power is a huge plus for him.

 

If the Dark One could taint the True Source at any time' date=' then why wouldn't he simply taint both [i']saidin[/i] and saidar as soon as possible? Why even mention a "counter-stroke"? To me a counter-stroke is like the sword move "Sheathing the Sword". Your enemy, in striking you, leaves himself vulnerable, and you counter-strike:source(pun intended) him while he's vulnerable.

 

The only explanation - without extrapolating (ie.. making stuff up) - is that he was able to attack the Source itself because of what the 100 Companions were doing to Seal him.

 

And I really don't think the ways had anything to do with Saidar' date=' since it was the male aes sedai who created them to thank the Ogiers for offering them refuge.[/quote']

 

The male Aes Sedai didn't create the Ways. They gave the Ogier a ter'angreal to make them. Obviously its impossible to say for certain that the ter'angreal uses both saidar and saidin - it definetly uses at least saidin, hence the tainted Ways - but from the quote I provided, its certainly reasonable that the ter'angreal used saidar, and indeed very likely seeing as these Aes Sedai were from the Age of Legends.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Actually the story is, and I say that because we don't know what actually happened and we've seen many times throughout the series that acting on what you think you know can be dangerous, that the male Aes Sedai created the Ways and then gave the Elders the Talisman(s) of Growing when they left so they could continue growing Waygates once the Aes Sedai were gone.

 

Either way, it's entirely possible that Saidar was involved, but we have no definitive proof of that. We might surmise that given that the Bowl of the Winds used Saidin even though it was being powered solely by Saidar at the time, but again we have no proof. The only thing we can safely say is that Saidin (at least) was used to make the Ways and that the Taint crept into them because of that. If you subscribe to the theory that Saidin was tainted because only men were involved in the sealing (which I do) then it is also reasonable to think that the Ways are tainted because they were also made entirely with Saidin.

 

P.S.- I love the spellchecker in Firefox 2.0, it just kept me from looking like an unlettered oaf!

[Simple Gleeman]

We might surmise that given that the Bowl of the Winds used Saidin even though it was being powered solely by Saidar at the time' date=' but again we have no proof.[/quote']

 

Actually about the Bowl, we do have "proof" - at least as good of proof you can get without an RJ quote. The girls notice saidar twisting around something "unseen", as with the wall protecting Callandor.

 

And I did not say there was "definitive" proof that the Talisman of Growing uses saidar. Definitive proof is impossible to obtain without an RJ quote, quite frankly.

 

I claim that there is very strong evidence that the Talisman uses saidar.

 

Actually the story is ... that the male Aes Sedai created the Ways and then gave the Elders the Talisman(s) of Growing when they left so they could continue growing Waygates once the Aes Sedai were gone.

 

Actually when the Ways are described by Loial at the beginning of chapter 43 in Book 1....

"As I was saying," the Ogier went on, "the Aes Sedai, the male Sedai, left. But before they went, they gave a gift to the Ogier..."

 

There is no mention that the Ways were orignally created only by male Aes Sedai.

 

Egwene's question on the next page however is phrased in a way that implies it was indeed only the men involved...

"How did they make them?" Egwene asked. Her puzzled look took in Moiraine and Loial both. "The Aes Sedai, the men. If they couldn't use the One Power in a stedding, how could they make the Ways? Or did they use the One Power at all?"

 

Egwene is clearly assuming that the Ways were made by only the men, but any assumed knowledge by Egwene is worse than irrelevant compared to Loial's, considering her only knowledge of the Ways is from him.

 

Either Egwene made a mistake on what she just learned, or RJ knows the Ways were infact created by men and wrote Egwene's line with a touch of omnipotence.

 

Again, the best things in the Age of Legends were done with males and females. The Ways are surely a legendary thing, seeing as they exist in a different space-time.

[Simple Gleeman]

If you subscribe to the theory that Saidin was tainted because only men were involved in the sealing (which I do) then it is also reasonable to think that the Ways are tainted because they were also made entirely with Saidin.

 

I do subscribe to that theory. Its the only reasonable one I've seen.

 

It is reasonable to include' date='

 

[i']"...that the Ways are tainted becayse they are also made entirely with Saidin."[/i],

 

in the realm of possibility.

 

However, the fact that tainted saidin was used in creating the Ways does not provide reason to exclude the possibility that saidar was also used.

[TheDiceAgain...]

But then again, perhaps it's not the same as the Taint on Saidin at all. Look at it this way. What is the greatest working from Age of Legends that we know of which used only one side of the One Power? The Seals on the Dark One's prison, right? They are made of heartstone and are thereby supposedly indestructible. We know however, and have known for some time, that that is by no means true.

 

I'm willing to conjecture that the increasing corrosion of the Ways coincides rather closely with the fragility of the Seals and is caused not by the Taint on Saidin, but rather by the encroachment of the Dark One on the Pattern. You said, quite rightly, that the Ways exist in another space-time, but we know that the Pattern encompasses all worlds, all realities and all space-times, I would guess. Therefore, as the DO encroaches more and more upon this world he also encroaches there and the lack of Saidar as a balancing agent in the making of the Ways has left them vulnerable to "His" corrosive or maybe atrophying is a better word, effect.

[stoneface]

Rand has stated that he wants to cleanse the Ways. I think the first reference was in book 3 or 4, and I think he repeated that later (after cleansing Saidin), but I am not sure. Anyone know?

 

Big question is whether the reference to cleansing the Ways is to set up for cleansing Saidin, or if it is somewhere on his priority list, or even no longer possible without the female Cho'dan Kal (?) figurine. Or maybe somebody else will take up that task.

[gelrad]

From what i remember it is dangerus for anyone to walk the Ways, Could the taint in them are from people that died in them, or evil done in them...

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "I ahve this theory that saidin isnt fully cleansed, due to 2 reasons.

 

1. Padan fain and the dagger. Both of them carries the taint of shadar logoth.

 

2. The wound in Rand's side also contain the taint.

 

So untill these 2 things are removed I dont think it is fully cleansed and perhaps there is a risk that the taint will be fully restored. Especially if Padan fain survives the last battle, then he can do what Mordeth once did." Unquote

 

Point 1-Padan Fains dagger was never linked with the taint. it has part of the evil of Mashadar which Padan Fain partly merged with. This wound would surely heal if Rand were to kill Padan Fain (which Im guessing to be the last of the evil of Shadar Logoth, since the city itself has been destroyed). I did notice that the dagger wound did begin to Heal ever so slowly, or that the throbbingness of it ws lessened after the destruction of Shadar Logoth.

 

Point 2-Rands original wound contains the taint because Ishamael put it there. Rand cleansed the taint from Saidin, not from his wound. So, while any Saidin drawn after the cleansing would be clean, Rands wound still contains it and will do until its Healed. Cleansing Saidin only prevented the madness of the taint from affecting anyone further while they channelled from the True Source. The way i see it, the only saidin that was cleansed was the saidin that hadnt been channelled yet. Which is why Rands wound hasnt healed yet

[imrathill]

u got wrong on both thigs m8,

saidin isnt in the fain thing

and the ishy wound was from the tru power not saidin

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "saidin isnt in the fain thing" Unquote

 

I hope that wasnt aimed at me seeing as Ive just pointed that out

[Luckers]

I think its your method of quoting that is confusing. At first i too thought you'd said that, i missed the quote/unquote thing entirely.

 

Other then that though i agree with you on point 1, point 2 im a little hazy on. I do not think the taint in rands first wound is the same as the taint on saidin. A like evil, certainly... and caused by the True Power, but im simply not convinced it is the same as the taint.

[chemteach1977]

Ditto to luckers. The original wound caused by Ishy was not contaminated with the taint but evil straight from the DO. The same evil that "infected" Saidin. Both from same original source but the evil in the wound was in no way dependant on the taint. (the 12 year old in me chuckles every time i write taint)

 

Also, Rand's second wound did not really improve after the destruction of SL. IIRC that wound was intensified by his proximity to the city/mashadar. No more city, no more intensification. He would have noticed the same improvement by travelling further away from SL.

 

Very interested to see what happens if/when Fain snuffs it.