Other Worlds & the Pattern

[Red2111]

i think i figured out something and i don't know if anyone else has. during that interaction between Verin & Egwene in the Dragon Reborn, Verin starts rambling on about the different realities being connected and such. paraphrasing here but she says

 

"Theres a creator & DO in each world, and in each world the DO is locked in the cell. if the DO breaks free of his prison in one world, he is free in all worlds; but if he's imprisioned in one world, he's imprisioned in all"

 

something liek that. i don't have the book with me for an exact quote. i read this and something clicked. we know that rand saw hundereds of different lives via the portal stone, his lives had he taken a different turn or had there been different events; in each of those the DO won, we know this cause of the "I Win Again LTT". the only way the DO wins is if he's able to break out of his cell.

 

then we recall the portal stone trip Rand takes in tGH, the desolate world where instead of a monument to hawking theres a monument to the DO built because Hawking lost (a wolrd where the DO has won and all humanity is wiped out)

 

to furhter give compound this, we also have Ishy's ramblings from EotW. the "We've fought many times, under many names LTT; but always we fight. sometimes you've served me, others you've been killed, and still others we've fought against one another; but always we are linked" (again paraphrasing his long silioque)

 

so taking in all this backgroun info on portal stones and how multiple Age Laces make up the pattern and put it with Verins conclusion that for the DO to win he must be free of all his cells in all the worlds; is it possibel to conclude that the "lives" Rand saw are the other worlds at this ppoint in time where the DO has won and that the world Rand is in now (the Rand the story we're reading focuses on) is the proverbial last stand; the last world the DO has to break out of before winning for good and destroying the pattern entirely.

 

 

has anyone come to the same conclusion?? if you want i can actually quote the parts i'm talking about and make a thread for discussion. RJ was famous for slippign in important revolations in seemingly non important side convos that don't pertain to the immediate plot; which is exactly what Verin's rambling was if you ask me.

[spoke]

i think i figured out something and i don't know if anyone else has. during that interaction between Verin & Egwene in the Dragon Reborn, Verin starts rambling on about the different realities being connected and such. paraphrasing here but she says

 

"Theres a creator & DO in each world, and in each world the DO is locked in the cell. if the DO breaks free of his prison in one world, he is free in all worlds; but if he's imprisioned in one world, he's imprisioned in all"

 

something liek that. i don't have the book with me for an exact quote. i read this and something clicked. we know that rand saw hundereds of different lives via the portal stone, his lives had he taken a different turn or had there been different events; in each of those the DO won, we know this cause of the "I Win Again LTT". the only way the DO wins is if he's able to break out of his cell.

 

then we recall the portal stone trip Rand takes in tGH, the desolate world where instead of a monument to hawking theres a monument to the DO built because Hawking lost (a wolrd where the DO has won and all humanity is wiped out)

 

to furhter give compound this, we also have Ishy's ramblings from EotW. the "We've fought many times, under many names LTT; but always we fight. sometimes you've served me, others you've been killed, and still others we've fought against one another; but always we are linked" (again paraphrasing his long silioque)

 

so taking in all this backgroun info on portal stones and how multiple Age Laces make up the pattern and put it with Verins conclusion that for the DO to win he must be free of all his cells in all the worlds; is it possibel to conclude that the "lives" Rand saw are the other worlds at this ppoint in time where the DO has won and that the world Rand is in now (the Rand the story we're reading focuses on) is the proverbial last stand; the last world the DO has to break out of before winning for good and destroying the pattern entirely.

 

 

has anyone come to the same conclusion?? if you want i can actually quote the parts i'm talking about and make a thread for discussion. RJ was famous for slippign in important revolations in seemingly non important side convos that don't pertain to the immediate plot; which is exactly what Verin's rambling was if you ask me.

 

 

First of all you need to distinguish between Mirror Worlds (worlds accessed by the portal stones) and Parallel/Other worlds (worlds like where the Ogier come from or the Finn's). Verin may have been talking about those worlds in her discourse to Egwene. The mirror worlds are more like what if's, and may not have the same rules apply. Refine/clarify your theory a little so that we know which you are talking about.

[Guest cindy.]

she appears to be talking about mirror worlds.

 

as was verin.

[HeadAche01]

I think Verin was talkin about mirror worlds, but if what you say is true, what holds the DO from sending all his channelers to the last world we read about, if he's won in all the other worlds?

[Red2111]

the mirror worlds and parrelell worlds are some what the same aren't they. the only difference beteen Rands true world and the parallel worlds woudl be a left turn versus a right turn (boiled down simplistically)

 

 

as for the DO sending channelers to the last world. if he's one in all the rest then there wouldn't be any channelers to send. the DO's ambition is to destroy the pattern, to wipe out existance; there for in any world he wins in there would be no living people. for this i point to the mirror/parallel world Rand visits in tGH; where there are no living creatures except for those 3 eyed frogs. but there are no humans or humanoid creatures (ie: trollocs, Ogier, Mydraal, Drakhar, ect)

 

 

 

i agree he should have sent his Forsaken to travel to other worlds via the portal stones; but who knows if there were any Forsaken in those worlds, or how many were bound versus killed right out in the AoL's or how many chose to serve him aside from Ishy. infact, maybe Randland isn't the last; there might even be another world in which choisses were made that lead to the bore never being re-opened.

[Durinax]

like others have said there are 3 constants

1) creator

2) DO (locked up)

3) some sort of pattern

 

it is my theory that a person can only glimpse worlds that have other humans on them (like what rand and co did) the reason I think this is that if rand where to travel to another world with another rand that the tension created by a single thread in the pattern being two places would cause it to tear (like what was happening in finnland due to too many taveren) or the two would merge somehow.

[Cybertrolloc]

RJ was famous for slippign in important revolations in seemingly non important side convos that don't pertain to the immediate plot; which is exactly what Verin's rambling was if you ask me.

It's tough to distinguish between what's strictly throw-away, what's sort of throw-away, intended or one of the first two that was throw-away when written but fleshed out and made canon later.

 

There's some interview stuff about cosmology that might be of interest...hard to parse what you're saying. From within the series proper, characters have little to no access to this info, can be wrong, lying, etc...this has its upsides (for verisimilitude) and downsides (how to figure out what's actually going on and most of it probably isn't relevant anyway).

[mb]

The "I won again" I guess came from Ishamael since in the book it is not in all caps. Also because there being no indicator of each of those worlds being destroyed.

 

 

About only being able to glance human populated worlds, that seems false.

Randland people could access the world of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn through at least 3 methods:: both door frame terangreal (before the Eelfinn one was destroyed), Tower of Ghenjei. Maybe also through Gateway.

Other worlds I guess can be visited by Gateway.

[Randommer]

i think i figured out something and i don't know if anyone else has. during that interaction between Verin & Egwene in the Dragon Reborn, Verin starts rambling on about the different realities being connected and such. paraphrasing here but she says

 

"Theres a creator & DO in each world, and in each world the DO is locked in the cell. if the DO breaks free of his prison in one world, he is free in all worlds; but if he's imprisioned in one world, he's imprisioned in all"

 

something liek that. i don't have the book with me for an exact quote. i read this and something clicked. we know that rand saw hundereds of different lives via the portal stone, his lives had he taken a different turn or had there been different events; in each of those the DO won, we know this cause of the "I Win Again LTT". the only way the DO wins is if he's able to break out of his cell.

 

then we recall the portal stone trip Rand takes in tGH, the desolate world where instead of a monument to hawking theres a monument to the DO built because Hawking lost (a wolrd where the DO has won and all humanity is wiped out)

 

to furhter give compound this, we also have Ishy's ramblings from EotW. the "We've fought many times, under many names LTT; but always we fight. sometimes you've served me, others you've been killed, and still others we've fought against one another; but always we are linked" (again paraphrasing his long silioque)

 

so taking in all this backgroun info on portal stones and how multiple Age Laces make up the pattern and put it with Verins conclusion that for the DO to win he must be free of all his cells in all the worlds; is it possibel to conclude that the "lives" Rand saw are the other worlds at this ppoint in time where the DO has won and that the world Rand is in now (the Rand the story we're reading focuses on) is the proverbial last stand; the last world the DO has to break out of before winning for good and destroying the pattern entirely.

 

 

has anyone come to the same conclusion?? if you want i can actually quote the parts i'm talking about and make a thread for discussion. RJ was famous for slippign in important revolations in seemingly non important side convos that don't pertain to the immediate plot; which is exactly what Verin's rambling was if you ask me.

 

Imo this could explain so much! I've been wondering for ages about this RJ interview quote where someone asked him about when Ishamael said to Rand that he'd served the Shadow in previous lives. The person was asking how this was possible, since surely the DO would just break free and destroy all life. RJ's answer was that it was true; the Dragon had turned to the Shadow in previous lives and the result had been a 'stalemate'. In terms of Randland's cosmology, or the stuff we know about, this sort of stalemate seems impossible.

But the mirror worlds thing would explain it! If the DO was still trapped in some worlds, then the Dragon turning to the Shadow in only one or two wouldn't make a difference.

(I should point out in case anyone goes looking that RJ was asked that same Ishamael question a few years later and his response was, "And you believed Ishamael?!" But imo that was evasion. The part I'm referencing is farther back in the Theoryland stuff.)

[Red2111]

^^ thanks Randommer!! i know my thoughts were jumbled, but it does make sense and explain a bit. and yeah, had it only been Ishy i was goign off, i woudl have dismissed it myself. i mean he is the Betrayer and for all we know half of what he tells Rand in EotW are just boasts and fallacies. i mean, at this point Ishy is basically a sales man, trying to get Rand to buy into the Dark Side. thats why i focus more on what Rand saw and what Verin said, cause i know that we can trust Verin to be telling the truth.

 

if you factor in what ishy said with a grain of salt, you can draw up the conclusion that what Rand saw was his battle against hte shadow in previous worlds (none of which mentioned him serving the shadow btw; so Ishy's referrance is to the soul of the Dragon having served before, not Rand personally). by the words "I Win Again" implies that in those realities/mirror worlds/parallel worlds the DO has touched the world and remade that scan of the Age Lace in his image.

 

 

 

Durinax - thats acutlaly a good point about two threads being in the same pattern. it would strain the pattern; not only that but think about "Back to the Future" or even "Harry Potter" what woudl happen if those two people met, stuff like that. say Lanfear traveled to another world in which there was already a Lanfear loose, would that worlds natural Lanfear balefire the visiting Lanfear? and if so, how would that effect the natural Lanfears existance if the Balefire reached back to the point where the two Lanfears split off (one took a left turn and the other took a right turn)

 

maybe the pattern has a safety mechanisim attached to it that prevents people from traveling to worlds where they have another self in them, like the portal stone wont work because the pattern can't weave that into it type thing .... i dunno.

 

 

i wonder, when Ishy was talkign about "you have served the DO before" if he was talking about the Dragons past lives, not abotu the Mirror worlds. i mean, i don't think the mirror worlds would interest Ishy that much (only a Historian woudl really find them interesting ya know) so maybe Ishy doesn't know about this part of the battle. i would think though, if the DO was smart; he woudl consolodate his forces to win (the sending more channelers between worlds thing) unless maybe its an unwritten rule him and the creator madein this game their playing .... maybe for the creator or DO to win, each world has to succum to the Light or Dark on it's own with the players it already has .... that could also explain why the DO doesn't send another Ishy to Randland, instead of trying to recycle his forsaken.

 

 

 

The "I won again" I guess came from Ishamael since in the book it is not in all caps. Also because there being no indicator of each of those worlds being destroyed.

 

i cant remember if the "I Won Again" in "The Great Hunt" was in all caps or not; but i doubt it was Ishy. first it was spoken always in Rands head, which is hw the DO communicates to everyone. 2nd it was always at the time of Rands Death, and the DO is the Lord of the Grave, and as far as we know, Ishy cannot commune with the dead unless the DO allows him too (ie: when he gave Ishy Rands mother's soul to torment Rand with).

 

then there is the simple name. it's stated the Dark One said this; anytime we have Ishy parading around as the DO, he's always referred to as Ba'alazom. last theres the fact it is just a voice which speaks without a body manifesting itself, whcih again is how we knwo the DO talks to people. Ishy always had to phsyically be there to talk, whether it was in person or in a dream.

[Guest cindy.]

several agree with mb about the voice being ishy's on the rand should die thread in the general forum, for the same reasons.