Who do you feel most sorry for?

[Luckers]

That said, Luckers, as the term is used in legal thought today, sexual assault is LESS PRECISE, not more precise. Rape is sexual assault that includes penetrative sex, which is what happened here (Mat and Tylin), and is therefore the better (more precise) term. Sexual assault can also mean unwanted touching (someone grabbing your ass) for example.

 

You forget my purpose. Recall that I was speaking to people's perceptions, and the use of terminology framed to the respondent, not the technicality of the usage. Indeed, in the distinction you make, that penetration is the defining aspect of sexual assaults that are framed rape, you support my argument in that this has led to the widely held, albeit inaccurate perception that the act of penetration was the form of the assault--which in this instance, with the penetration done by Mat, is not the case.

 

Whilst this is not accurate, it is percieved, and thus, I relayed my argument that for the purpose of this discussion, in this setting, to get past such misperceptions, the phrasing 'sexual assault' serves as a more precise usage.

 

At no point did I suggest that the destinction I was making was the technical, legal distinction. In fact I think I've been quite clear in the opposite. I merely stated that in this dialogue, with those involved, it is a more precise usage of the language--as indeed the true and original purpose of language is to convey understanding.

[PhoenixUK]

I can see why people think tylin sexually assaulted mat, if not raped him. But do you ever see mat's POV that he is depressed, upset, feels genuinely sickened by it? He's just embarrased and irritated. I think it also links to when nynaeve is complaining about mat's promiscuity, and elayne or egwene remarks that mat never goes after women who are unwilling. I think to some extent its supposed to be the same. After they have sex, mat is grouchy about being chased, but not about having sex. I think its a bit far fetched to attribute that to stockholm syndrome!

 

But yes, I think it is a bit controversial, and maybe just RJ's own personal fantasy of being dominated and overpowered by a woman or something.

[Stubob]

The grass at Dumais Wells... it'll take ages for any vegetation to return there.

 

I registered just to salute the "Grass At Dumai's Wells" response. *two thumbs up*

[Stubob]

Because if he treated them fair he would choose ONE woman. He wouldn't say "i'm sorry, i love three of you. can you just decide for yourself wjat to do with it"

 

As far as Tylin goes, she treated Mat the way average men nowadays treat women. And of course men don't like such attitude. they perfer to be on top

 

Well Rand didn't want to risk any of the women by having them marry him, but they refused to take no for an answer and bullrushed him.

[Stubob]

@iness: You argue that Mat was treated the same way he treats woman ? Interesting ,I look forward to the parts you will reference, specifically the one where he ties them down, has sex without their consent and then afterwards treats them as a toy to mess with daily.Unless of course you are without proof on your claim.

 

As for the other situation as long as the other parties agreed to it, I don't see a problem.Frankly , the problem is on how idiotic the romances look in WoT in general but that's another discussion.

 

 

I didn't mean that Mat abused women and of course there is no evidence of ties or the like. i mentioned more psycological aspect of such "relationship". Moreover i said that Tylin acted the way some MEN do, and no one is surprised. But if a woman "rapes" a man, then that's a topic for discussin! even if he is a character in a book, then i am tortured on the forum for what i posted.

 

Yes some men & women do horrible things. Now can we get back to just discussing what happens in the books?

[Stubob]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

 

*coughs* If she was using a strap on & stimulating his prostate, he'd be erect regardless of whether he wanted it or not. And yes us men do not have full control over our erections. Regardless of the situation.

[Tollieman]

I feel very sorry for Thom and Juilin. How long did they have to crawl around after Elayne and Nyn?

 

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but yeah; that's pretty horrible.

[Nygma]

Probably Birgitte. Didn't see many mentions of her, which is surprising. She was a Hero of the Horn, through her actions given a special place in the WoT universe, and tied to her eternal lover.

 

Now she's been ripped out, she's not where/when she's supposed to be, she's losing her memories, and as far as she or we can tell, her entire existence and place in the cosmic scheme has been irreparably damaged and she doesn't think she'll ever see Gaidal again. EVER.

 

To top it off, she's bonded to Elayne for life.

 

 

 

One person I don't feel that sorry for that a lot of people seem to is Verin. She swore to the Dark One, not as some great sacrifice as people seem to think, but because it was that or die. She wussed out, swore to the Ultimate Evil, did who knows what unspeakable things. At the end she tried to make up for it, but it's kind of like Ingtar's redemption. Great that she came back and did something noble at the end, but better to have never made the deal in the first place.

[Zhipp]

Probably Birgitte. Didn't see many mentions of her, which is surprising. She was a Hero of the Horn, through her actions given a special place in the WoT universe, and tied to her eternal lover.

 

Now she's been ripped out, she's not where/when she's supposed to be, she's losing her memories, and as far as she or we can tell, her entire existence and place in the cosmic scheme has been irreparably damaged and she doesn't think she'll ever see Gaidal again. EVER.

 

To top it off, she's bonded to Elayne for life.

 

 

 

One person I don't feel that sorry for that a lot of people seem to is Verin. She swore to the Dark One, not as some great sacrifice as people seem to think, but because it was that or die. She wussed out, swore to the Ultimate Evil, did who knows what unspeakable things. At the end she tried to make up for it, but it's kind of like Ingtar's redemption. Great that she came back and did something noble at the end, but better to have never made the deal in the first place.

I agree with everything you've said. But I thought Birgitte stopped losing her memories. Has she forgotten the founding of the White tower yet?

[Elan Tedronai]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

 

*coughs* If she was using a strap on & stimulating his prostate, he'd be erect regardless of whether he wanted it or not. And yes us men do not have full control over our erections. Regardless of the situation.

 

 

may be u and the rest here have no control. I certainly do

[plague fiend]

As the title says, which of the "important" characters in WoT do you feel most sorry for, and why?

I'll start.

 

Alanna Mosvani. Poor girl didn't know what she was up to, when she bonded Rand. Not only does she have to live in fair because she don't know if Rand will kill her, as she can feel his anger. But she also have to live with knowing the feelings Rand has for the three other girls, and other interests. As Rand is a powerful and handsome guy, I would think it to be rather natural that Alanna would be fascinated by him. As her feelings grow, she will have to live with not only being denied the feelings in return, but she will know the golden veins Rand has for the three others. Poor woman.

 

What do you think?

 

Alanna is someone I feel no sorrow for. She bonded him against his will. This should not be taken lightly. It doesn't matter why she did it, but that she did do it. Rand is someone I feel sorrow for. Why? Read any of the books and put yourself in his shoes.

[MierinWru]

I feel the sorry for the Dark One. He's going to get his butt handed to him.