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Demandred's clothing


herid
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Terez gave a strong case for Demandred being based in Murandy based on Roedran's striking transformation. I don't want to rehash her arguments but I was looking for other possible clues to Demandred's location and it occurred to me that Demandred's fashion sense might provide a clue.

 

A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through, giving them each a small bow. He was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck. He adapted easily to the fashions and fabrics of this Age.

-LoC, Prologue

So Demandred easily adapts to local fashions and he is wearing lace on that day. There is another remark in KoD pointing in the same direction

 

Demandred's hook-nosed face carried an expression of anger that only made him more striking. Not enough to attract her, of course. He was far too dangerous for that. That well-fitted coat of bronze silk, with falls of snowy lace at neck and wrists, suited him, however. Mesaana also wore the style of this Age, a darker, pattern-embroidered bronze.

-KoD, Ch 3

 

This again says that Demandred follows local fashion and this time he is wearing lace at neck and wrists. In Randlands different countries seem to have pretty distinct fashions so I thought this might lead to something. But I admit I never paid much attentions to those things before. Are Murandian male fashions described anywhere? Would the above descriptions fit other countries perhaps? Are there more descriptions of Demandred's clothing?

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I have good news for this theory: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/costume-in-wheel-of-time-part-2.html#murandy .

 

Men wear long bright knee-length coats (Lord of Chaos, A Different Dance) and high-crowned hats (The Fires of Heaven, The Nine Horse Hitch). They often wear considerable amounts of lace (The Path of Daggers, Out on the Ice).

 

This certainly fits with the second quote. If only we knew how long his coat was...

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Regarding Demandreds clothes and clue to his location, this is taken from the 13th depository.

 

AMADICIA

In the city men wear brightly coloured knee length coats; the cuffs of nobleman’s coats are edged with lace (Lord of Chaos, Prologue). Although I doubt that Demandred is hiding in Amadicia. Here the cuffs of the coats are edged with lace.

 

This on the other hand is interesting :

The CAIRHIEN fashion for men:

 

wear dark clothes unless they live in the Foregate. Those of commoners are plain. Noblemen have narrow stripes of their house colours across the front of the coat starting at the collar, the more stripes, the higher ranking the noble. They also often wear lace at their wrists that hangs over their hands.

 

It can also be Illian:

Men: wear a long dark coat with raised collar. Lords also wear lace at neck and wrists and often wear gold or silver fringing on their boots.

 

So Demandred is maybe posing as an Cairhien or an Illian.

Edited by Logains Pet
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Illian is unlikely, the Forsaken don't like to share and Sammael would not have tolerated him being there as well.

 

Cairhein is possible, but unlikely, we have been introduced to many of the major lords so it would seem odd for him to be hiding there in plain site the entire time as one of dozens of unnamed lords.

 

Murandy is a possibility, but its just too obvious, it screams "there's no way it could be that easy". Of course the problem is RJ does both the obvious and the least likely, in the same chapter, so I just don't know.

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He has to be in either Murandy, Cairhien or Illian. The lace must be a clue that Jordan left us lol...

I think it is Murandy, maybe RJ threw in that obvious clue just to confuse us fan(atics) knowing that we would overanalyze. He is making Demandred hide from us in plain sight...in Murandy somewhere he is sitting and patching up his lace and plotting.

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Great catch guys. I don't pay much attention to clothing, as I'm a skim-reader by and large.

 

ETA: Murandy is far from 'too obvious', promise. It might seem 'too obvious' for those of you who haven't been around too long, but it was pretty much the last place in Randland anyone expected him to be.

Edited by Terez
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At the start of LoC Demandred was still trying to keep his location secret from the other Forsaken (except probably Semirhage and Mesaana). Certainly neither Graendal nor Sammael knew where he had placed himself at this point.So it could well be that at the meeting at the start of LoC he had intentionally dressed in a misleading way to throw Graendal and Sammael off the trail.

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Yeah, but why would he stop hiding it in KOD? He could have worn anything in Tel'aran'rhiod. I don't think he was necessarily trying to hide anything by his clothing, and I'm not convinced that he was in Murandy that far back anyway. Certainly we don't see any sign of it until after then. My bet is he went to Murandy after Taim started more or less answering directly to Moridin, which was probably around the cusp of ACOS and TPOD. That's also when they started planning around the dreamspike, building the wall. I want to say Demandred came up with that one - he's obviously still involved somewhat with the Black Tower - but it's not necessary. Moridin could have come up with it. But Talmanes (TPOD 18) is really the first indication that Roedran is other than he appears to be, aside from Omerna's hint that Roedran might be ambitious. (Omerna is hardly a credible source.)

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Regarding Demandreds clothes and clue to his location, this is taken from the 13th depository.

 

AMADICIA

In the city men wear brightly coloured knee length coats; the cuffs of nobleman’s coats are edged with lace (Lord of Chaos, Prologue). Although I doubt that Demandred is hiding in Amadicia. Here the cuffs of the coats are edged with lace.

 

This on the other hand is interesting :

The CAIRHIEN fashion for men:

 

wear dark clothes unless they live in the Foregate. Those of commoners are plain. Noblemen have narrow stripes of their house colours across the front of the coat starting at the collar, the more stripes, the higher ranking the noble. They also often wear lace at their wrists that hangs over their hands.

 

It can also be Illian:

Men: wear a long dark coat with raised collar. Lords also wear lace at neck and wrists and often wear gold or silver fringing on their boots.

 

So Demandred is maybe posing as an Cairhien or an Illian.

 

 

I have just been re-reading LoC, in an attempt to figure out Demandred. I picked up on the clothing. Though, he could be in all 3/4 places. Y'know, spreading chaos and unrest everywhere...

 

Also, I remember reading somewhere BS said Demandred's persona(y'know, the guy who he pretends to be. Can't think of a better word :unsure: ) was referenced but never seen on screen. Are there anybody besides Roedran who has been reference, but never seen in either Cairhien or Illian?

Edited by Vieira151
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Read the article linked in the OP.

 

The one thing that stand out for me for men from Murandy is their moustaches or "tashes" as we aussies like to call them.. :biggrin:

 

Also from wiki:

Men commonly have curled moustaches, waxed to a point (ACoS, Ch. 27). They may also have small beards on the tip of their chin (LoC, Ch. 52). Along the border with Andor, Murandians are indistinguishable from Andorans except by dress.

 

Murandian coats have a distinctive cut and are long, reaching to the knees and made of bright silk, red and yellow being common colours (LoC, Ch. 5; ACoS, Ch. 34).

 

I understnad that he is clean shaven.. not Tashe to speak of..

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I have good news for this theory: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/costume-in-wheel-of-time-part-2.html#murandy .

 

Men wear long bright knee-length coats (Lord of Chaos, A Different Dance) and high-crowned hats (The Fires of Heaven, The Nine Horse Hitch). They often wear considerable amounts of lace (The Path of Daggers, Out on the Ice).

 

This certainly fits with the second quote. If only we knew how long his coat was...

thanks for the link. I should have looked there myself. But that site is so huge I often get lost there.

 

At the start of LoC Demandred was still trying to keep his location secret from the other Forsaken (except probably Semirhage and Mesaana). Certainly neither Graendal nor Sammael knew where he had placed himself at this point.So it could well be that at the meeting at the start of LoC he had intentionally dressed in a misleading way to throw Graendal and Sammael off the trail.

that can not be ruled out of course but I really don't think it's the case. this is such a weak hint for Demandred's location that making it a false hint would be much too much from writer's perspective. It would just be a waste of effort. I think it's a hint for the readers. However, after doing some searching it doesn't seem to reveal too much I'm afraid.

 

First, unfortunately, I don't believe Demandred's clothing is described anywhere else beside the two examples that I quoted.

 

Also, I found examples of similar clothing from several different countries. Murandy seems to be one of them although I couldn't find detailed descriptions of Murandian fashions. Perhaps somebody else can find better quotes.

when Egwene meets Andoran and Murandian nobles in tPoD it's mentioned a couple of times that they are wearing lace

 

“May I present, of Murandy, Donel do Morny a’Lordeine. Cian do Mehon a’Macansa. Paitr do Fearna a’Conn. Segan do Avharin a’Roos.” The Murandians seemed to feel the lack of titles even more than the Andorans. Donel, wearing more lace than most of the women, twisted his curled mustaches fiercely, and Paitr appeared to be trying to yank his loose.

-tPoD, Ch 17

also, while I mostly didn't look at women's fashions in this regard there is one quote that I find somewhat interesting

Chesa muttered and grumbled under her breath the whole time she was helping Egwene undress, and in the end, wrapped in a robe—red silk, to be sure, edged with frothy Murandian lace and embroidered with summery flowers; a gift from Anaiya—Egwene let her remove the linen cloth covering the tray on the little round table.

-CoT, Ch 20

I'm not sure what is meant by Murandian lace here. a style of lace? or some special kind of lace made in Murandy?

 

 

But as I said I also found other examples of men wearing clothing similar to that of Demandred and they actually seem to fit better.

 

First, Sammael wears something very similar when he meets Sevanna

 

Two shapes appeared, a man and a woman, breaking enough branches underfoot to wake a stone. Just short of the clearing, they stopped, and the man bent his head slightly to speak to the woman. It was Caddar, in a nearly black coat with lace at his neck and wrists.

-CoS, Ch 20

 

Also, members of the council of nine in Illian dress similarly

 

Eight sweating men had been standing at the far end of the throne room since Rand came in. They wore dark silk coats with gold or silver embroidery on the lapels and sleeves, and falls of lace at their throats and wrists.

-CoS, Ch 41

 

 

Mellar/Hanlon wears lace at neck and throat

 

With a narrow face, he was not pretty, or even handsome, yet he moved with a swordsman’s lithe grace that spoke of physical strength. As Captain of Elayne’s bodyguard, he rated three golden knots of rank, and he wore them soldered to each shoulder of his brightly burnished breastplate. An ignorant observer might have thought he outranked Birgitte. The falls of snow-white lace at his throat and wrists were twice as thick and twice as long as those worn by any of the Guardswomen, but he had left off the sash again, perhaps because it would have obscured one set of golden knots

-CoT, Ch 11

 

I'm not quite clear where he is really from. He claimed to be Andoran but that could easily be a lie. so I'm not really sure what this one signifies.

 

Lastly, Tylin dresses Mat in a similar coat

When he finally managed to crawl out of that bloody bed, the bloody woman had had new clothes made for him, with her sitting there watching the bloody seamstresses measure and fit him! Snowy lace at his wrists almost hid his bloody hands unless he was careful, and more spilled from his neck almost to his flaming waist. Tylin liked lace on a man.

-WH, Ch 15

 

For whatever it's worth all those examples are from various countries directly bordering Murandy: Andor, Illian and Altara.

 

Read the article linked in the OP.

 

The one thing that stand out for me for men from Murandy is their moustaches or "tashes" as we aussies like to call them.. :biggrin:

 

Also from wiki:

Men commonly have curled moustaches, waxed to a point (ACoS, Ch. 27). They may also have small beards on the tip of their chin (LoC, Ch. 52). Along the border with Andor, Murandians are indistinguishable from Andorans except by dress.

 

Murandian coats have a distinctive cut and are long, reaching to the knees and made of bright silk, red and yellow being common colours (LoC, Ch. 5; ACoS, Ch. 34).

 

I understnad that he is clean shaven.. not Tashe to speak of..

Thanks for that info. I should look up the exact quotes. I must say that this does not look very much like what Demandred was wearing.

Actually, strike that. a bronze silk coat is reasonably close to yellow so that's not too far off.

Edited by herid
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I think Taraboners are more known for their mustaches than Murandians. Padan Fain doesn't appear to have one, for example. Also, the description of Murandian coats fits Demandred's coat in KOD quite well. Aran'gar didn't say how long it was, and she probably doesn't care about Third Age fashion enough to recognize which fashion is from where.

Edited by Terez
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There are several types of lace mentioned in the books:

 

Murandian

Lugard lace

Jaerecuz or Jaerecruz (not sure which is the correct spelling)

Solinde

Barsine (was a city in Jaramide - location of Saldaea - before and during the Trolloc Wars)

Maldine

Mardina

Merada

Sovarra

Vandalra

 

Apparently it was fairly common for men to wear lace in the Ages of Legends. Ishamael was fond of it, and Asmodean was too (though that might have had something to do with his cover, it's likely he just liked lace). Osan'gar was described as being dressed like a Third Age ruler once, and he was wearing a lot of lace. Other men who like lace of course are Daved Hanlon and Mat. Usually lace is associated with women, and in Ebou Dar it seems that most men wear moderate amounts of lace unless they are someone's pretty.

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I honestly still believe Demandred has gather the entire Sharan force. The Sh'boyan (misspelling) is mentioned a couple of times, also their politics, dresscode etc. is mentioned a couple of times, even in The world of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan would never mention a ruler/country so many times and then not let it play in the books. I was thinking (while reading The world of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time) how easy it would be for a male channeler to take over Shara. In Shara, all male channelers are taken from normal society to live in camps hidden from the normal world. The ruler of Shara is only presented at his corronation and then never seen again, only served by female channelers that pass on his wishes to the public. Simply put those female channelers under compulsion, created a saidin weaved disguise and nobody will ever notice that the ruler has been replaced by a Forsaken and the entire country will serve him. This is why Demandred confirmed something like: I am ready, my forces are ready for war. He has already taken his forces to the blight (or partially). This I think are the red veiled pointy teethed Aiel guys, in the The world of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time it says that Sharan clothing resembles the Aiel clothing.

So, squash it! xD

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Lol.. that would be interesting. The Sh´boan and Sh´botay in Shara are missing, Graendal has them as pets and it is said that there is anarchy in the land. It is never stated how many the Ayyad are so if there are not many channelers I guess Demandred could have them under compulsion.

The Sh´botay of Shara is described as being very dark skinned. I haven´t seen the Red Aiel so I dk how they look like, and since I´m in the middle of a move all my books are in boxes, even the big white. But it´s a fun theory =)

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Demandred can't Compel all of Shara any more than Mesaana could Compel the entire Tower. Especially considering Demandred doesn't appear to be too interested in Compulsion, probably because he (like Rand) has a lack of talent in that area.

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It doesn't even mather wether he uses compulsion or not. All the male channelers are shipped off to timbuktu in Shara. So the female channelers wouldn't even see his weaves. He could even massacre the few female channelers that have direct contact with the ruler and replace them with BA. Just wanted to let u see how: 1. easy it would be to infiltrate Shara, 2. Shara is mentioned so much, never seen in the series, gotta have a part somewhere. The only area where a general like Demandred can find a nice army (considering it beat Hawkwings invasion). 3. It's a country that once under control, can be spoken off as in: My army is ready, I gather for war. So my guess is that even if Demandred isn't there, someone else of the dark side has got a plot going in Shara.

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He doesn´t have to compell the entire Shara, only the monarchs... or rather the Ayyad. It doesn´t say how many the Ayyad are but I don´t think they would allow too many channelers to "advise" the Sh´boyan and Sh´botay and since the people rarely see the monarchs it could be argued that Demandred can put those individuals under heavy compulsion and they will give Demandred´s wishes and commands to the monarchs. Since it seems that Shara is a very closed society it could work. Either way a Rant Lord as put forth a very interesting idea.

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He doesn´t have to compell the entire Shara, only the monarchs... or rather the Ayyad. It doesn´t say how many the Ayyad are but I don´t think they would allow too many channelers to "advise" the Sh´boyan and Sh´botay and since the people rarely see the monarchs it could be argued that Demandred can put those individuals under heavy compulsion and they will give Demandred´s wishes and commands to the monarchs. Since it seems that Shara is a very closed society it could work. Either way a Rant Lord as put forth a very interesting idea.

why would he allow graendal to take the rulers then, it would be easier for him to compell 2 people instead of at least a dozen (advisors). It doesnt add up.

 

as for those who say he is in Seanchan why would he allow semi to slay the imperial family, he could have an easier time compelling the empress.

 

either way it needlessly wastes large amounts of soldiers in a civil war something no general would allow. the only place that makes sense and hasnt plunged into civil anarchy is murandy.

 

plus Rhoedran underwent a startling change in personality, unambitious to very ambitious. he mentions a rare book that mat mentions only once (I think this is so I may be mistaken) which means he has been keeping an eye on mat. It makes perfect sense

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Maybe Graendal owned him one, lol. I was just speculating, but tbh I think he is in Murandy too. I just thought Rant Lord´s idea was interesting... and I wanna see the Shara!

Edited by Logains Pet
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