First Time Reading the First Book

[Swithin]

The power structure of the Two Rivers is expressly NOT male-centric. Jordan goes to considerable lengths to present that society as, at the very least, balanced, if not weighted in favor of women. In doing so, he is establishing one of the primary themes of the series. Saidin/Saidar, Yin/Yang, Wisdom/Mayor, Women's Circle/Village Council, Dark One/Creator. If I had to select one world to descibe the theme of the WoT, it would probably be, "Balance."

 

The Two Rivers is not a gender-blind society, where the genders participate equally in every sphere of life, but it is a gender-balanced society, with women holding at least as much power, on net, as men. If Sunny (or you) is failing to see that, Sunny is in fact failing to understand an import aspect of this story.

 

Jordan clearly intended to create a gender-balanced world. He said as much, in as many words. Most people seem to think he failed. But if he failed, he failed in the drection of matriarchy. The suggestion that this is a male-dominated society, even in the first chapters of the first book, is simply wrong.

 

All I'm saying is that it's not obvious that the Two Rivers is one of many "fishbowls" Jordan uses to explore these issues: at least, not yet. I'm not arguing that it doesn't become more apparent as the series goes on, but Always Sunny's points are a valid first-reaction to the writing itself. That is, of course, the ultimate test. No-one has said that Jordan is explicitly sexist: if anything, of the central characters so far the women have shown the most agency (Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve,) while the men are either led around (the TRB) or act to type. Always Sunny acknowledged this while going over the characters. The point is what the "normal" life (from which they've already escaped and to which they'll never return) expects of them. It's a non-modern society, and compared to our pop-culture portrayals of (say) medieval feudal Europe gender relations are if anything more liberal... but they're not modern, and they're certainly not explosively contrary to type. Always Sunny is (to this point) quite right: men are defined by profession, women by family name (and Women's Circle membership.) People with negative character traits have greater physical deviation/ugliness. These are common enough techniques, familiar to everyone, but tEotW was published in 1990, not serialized in Victorian England. It's legitimate to be concerned that this might be the status quo for the rest of the story if one is irritated by it (although you're right that there are hints that it's not going to be, and it's been said enough on this thread.) RJ eventually subverts a lot of these conventions, and when he does we'll have all kinds of fun things to talk about.

 

I'm just saying that it's a bit premature to start debating the finer points, as Always Sunny hasn't even gotten half-way through the first book yet, and the last thing we (as a community) want to do is to discourage someone from finishing the books because we get all polemical over how they interpret the first couple hundred pages.

 

 

The early story is simply told from the POV of a male character. It's that simple.

 

Yeah, the bright side is we don't have all that long to wait... on the downside, well, let's just say WoT taught me to be an equal-opportunity hater (you probably know the female POV character I'm talking about...)

 

On a lighter note, I do find some of Sunny's comments and predictions amusing. The idea that of the Rand/Egwene pair, the one with the unhealthy obsession with the other is Rand, for example. But I suppose Sunny will just have to RAFO.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm jealous or not. Waiting for AMoL is driving me nuts... but then, I remember the satisfaction of finally getting answers every time a new book came out... I think I'd start fresh if I could, if only to generate completely new loony theories (you probably know the mystery I'm talking about...)

[randsc]

Men may be defined by profession, but social status is not defined by profession. And it is defined, in part, by Women's Circle membership.

 

Sunny isn't a fantasy reader. It's fair to point out that just because economic status and profession matter in determining social status in the real world, it does not mean that they matter in determining social status in the world of a fanatasy novel.

 

As for the "ugly people are bad guys" thing, that seems to me to be weak beer, even if Sunny hasn't yet encountered Uno, Vanin, Olver or Gaidal Cain. As for "physical deviation," obesity seems to, with only a single exception I can think of off hand, correlate strongly with positive character traits in the world of the WoT.

 

I don't want to discourage Sunny from finishing. I do want to discourage Sunny from viewing every line of the story through the lens of socio-political greivance. Doing so isn't fair to the story, or to Sunny as the reader.

[Always Sunny]

Ha, I don't know where this thread is going either. But it's fun getting there.

 

So let me, I guess, tell you what I mean when I say something is sexist. I don't mean that the men think they are better than the women. I don't mean that men hate the women. I don't mean that the men are actively trying to keep women down. All of that matters, sure, but that isn't the point.

 

The point is power. Not physical power or magical power, either. And from where I am in the book, with no knowledge of the armies of Aes Sedai or the dozens of queens and matriarchies I'm sure to find further down the line, the women do not have as much power as the men. It is that simple. Other than Moiraine the women, for whatever reason, are less powerful than the men.

 

Ilyena could have been anything, but she was dead before the book even started. Dead people have no power.

 

Daise was just Wit Congar's wife. Her entire contribution to the story was to yell at Wit and send him to get pins from Fain.

 

Marin al'Vere is an innkeeper's wife. She's the mayor's wife and she sits on the Women's Council. She made some honeycakes once.

 

Sara, the next woman we meet, is an inn employee. Also a cook. She is kinda/sorta motherly to Rand.

 

Min, a street rat who can see the future.

 

Egwene, the mayor's daughter who is learning how to do magic.

 

Nynaeve, the new Wisdom who is too young to command respect.

 

Moiraine, a kick ass wizard.

 

Are there any more women mention so far in the story? How about the bit characters with no name and no lines? I can remember a sick woman Nynaeve was taking care of on Winternight. There were girls getting ready to dance around a pole. And there must be other members of the Women's Circle somewhere.

 

So what is there? A wife, a wife, a wife, a cook, an homeless girl, a teenage girl, a Wisdom who can't get no respect, and a powerful wizard.

 

The men? You've got Tam the ex-swordsman who owns and operates his own farm, Lan the ultimate swordsman, Bran with his wicked maul who owns his own inn, the Two Rivers Boys who have swords and axes and bows and staffs. You've got city gate guards, ferry business operators and workers, Baerlon Town Watchmen, Whitecloak Inquisition dudes, gleemen, peddlers, thatchers, millers, blacksmiths, and that's just all I can remember off the top of my head. Every single position of power is held by a man, from leader of the Whitecloaks to Governor of Baerlon to owners of inns to mayors and Village Councils. Every weapon is wielded by a man, from Rand's bow to Lan's sword to Bran's maul to the Whitecloaks' swords the the Trollocs' swords to the unprepared Emond's Field partisans' spears to the pole arms of the Baerlon Town Watch. Every known business is owned by a man (Bran's inn, Tam's farm, Luhhan's smithy, Hightower's ferry, Fitch's Inn, Fain's peddlin' cart, Thom's one-man-band).

 

One widow might own her own home out there down Quarry Road, the one who flirted with Tam. Other than that? Men own everything that has been shown in the book so far. With the exception of Moiraine's magic, Nynaeve's healing, and all the wives' cooking, men have done most of the actions, too.

 

It doesn't matter how much Nynaeve or any other woman talks bad about the men. Look at the real world. No white man is going to be offended by being called a cracker. Or being told they think with their lower head. It doesn't matter because men hold the power. So insult all you want. Who cares? Those in power can take the insults because that's all the oppressed have. Sticks and stones, you know?

 

That's why I ignored most of that. Was there anything else Nynaeve could do besides bitch about the men? Anything at all?

 

Again, just to reiterate. There is no such thing as reverse sexism. Sexism is an institutionalized oppression of one gender. It's in the language when "he" is the default gender. It's in the psyche when someone says "plumber" and we immediately picture a man in overalls. It's in politics when women make up 50% of the population but not 50% of the government. It isn't men hating women. Therefore women hating or belittling men isn't reversing anything.

 

Anyway, I read over this quote:

 

...

“Not exactly, but they thought you shouldn’t be among strangers, either, especially not with someone like her. Either way, though, almost every man wanted to be one of the party. Tam, and Bran al’Vere, with the scales of office around his neck, and Haral Luhhan, till Alsbet made him sit down. Even Cenn Buie. The Light save me from men who think with the hair on their chests. Though I don’t know as there are any other kind.” She gave a hearty sniff, and looked up at him, an accusing glance. “At any rate, I could see it would be another day, perhaps more, before they came to any decision, and somehow . . . somehow I was sure we did not dare wait that long. So I called the Women’s Circle together and told them what had to be done. I cannot say they liked it, but they saw the right of it. And that is why I am here; because the men around Emond’s Field are stubborn wool-heads. They’re probably still arguing about who to send, though I left word I would take care of it.”

 

which indicates not only casual sexism on the part of Nynaeve, but significant politcal and social power in the hands of the Wisdom and the Women's Circle.

 

Sunny's outrage regarding sexism does seem rather selective.

 

 

First, I'm not outraged. I usually don't get outraged at much. Well, a few things here or there. But this isn't one of them. It is just a book, after all. But look at the line just before the one you highlighted. Tam, Bran, Cenn, and Haral all volunteered to go after the kids. A sick moonshiner, a fat mayor, a dirty old man, and a half-burned blacksmith. Why didn't Alsbet volunteer to go? Why didn't Daise Congar? Why didn't any woman immediately jump up and shout "I'm going to get them back!"

 

See, sexism hurts men, too. Those four volunteers were in no shape to rescue the boys. But they had their honor, you see. They couldn't hold back and do nothing the way the women, Alsbet and Daise, were doing. To be a self-respecting man they had to volunteer, their inability be damned! And if they had went they'd huffed and puffed until some Trolloc stepped on them. Nynaeve was right in calling them idiots for acting like old fools. Their sexist ideas, that men need to rescue women or that women are unable to go out rescuing on their own, were going to get them killed if Nynaeve hadn't shot them down.

 

Anyway, I'm not looking for sexism. It's right there! I don't need to get out a magnifying glass to see it. And I really, really can't wait to get out of Two Rivers/Baerlon so I can start talking bad about the women in the story.

 

And you guys have to believe me but there is a part coming up in my next blog post (or maybe the one after that, depending on how much I write) where I'm really going to tear into a guy for his treatment of a lady. I swear I wrote the notes before we got into this forum discussion. But, well, you'll see it when I post it. Gulp.

[Swithin]

I don't want to discourage Sunny from finishing. I do want to discourage Sunny from viewing every line of the story through the lens of socio-political greivance. Doing so isn't fair to the story, or to Sunny as the reader.

 

Fair enough, but I think some of the comments on here have focused on that perceived grievance, even projected a little bit just to have more to push back against, beyond the point where we're actually discussing the material anymore. Let's keep it about the text. Always Sunny's putting in a lot of time writing up these reports, and I think we're all enjoying them: I am, at least. Even when we disagree about real-world gender politics, I think we should be inviting and thankful for someone who comes into the forum with so much enthusiasm (remember, Always Sunny isn't only new to WoT, but to Dragonmount too.)

 

Everyone's going to read the story a little differently; most of the regulars here have probably read the series differently by themselves through multiple read-throughs. It's one thing to say "consensus here is that you're reading things into it which aren't there, you'll have to take this on faith for a bit," and it's something completely different to attack someone's views on how to read gender in literature or society as a whole. If there's a misconception, the best way to clear it up is for Always Sunny to keep reading... I think we shouldn't take it for granted that it's supposed to be magical and fun (we're established fans,) and let Always Sunny experience WoT without challenging and contesting too many things.

 

Anyway, I'm not looking for sexism. It's right there! I don't need to get out a magnifying glass to see it. And I really, really can't wait to get out of Two Rivers/Baerlon so I can start talking bad about the women in the story.

 

Don't worry, it's coming. :P

[Dakota]

Again, just to reiterate. There is no such thing as reverse sexism.

 

And here is where I'm done reading this thread.

[UncleButcher1980]

This is officially now the most boring thread on Dragonmount.

[capuga]

Daise was just Wit Congar's wife. Her entire contribution to the story was to yell at Wit and send him to get pins from Fain.

 

And you will notice that Wit does exactly what he is told to do. Even seems a bit scared that he is not going to be able to complete the task that his wife set him. It doesn't matter that she is just the wife or that Wit is likely the "bread winner". What matters is that when Daise says to jump, Wit asks how high. I think this is part of what people feel you are missing. It is very strongly implied in the Two Rivers scenes that the Women's Circle makes all the real decisions. The Village Council may think they make decisions but in the end it is what the Women's Circle wants that gets done. The women wield very real power in the Two Rivers.

[Guest Unreg1stered]

I specifically registered for this site so that I could respond to this thread. Go me! I've been browsing this forum on and off for a few years now, and it is a real treat as a long time WoT fan to be able to read all of the theories and discussions about this great series. Hello. :)

 

I found this thread to be a real treat. I'd never considered how fun it was for a series veteran to read the thoughts of a new person. Hearing their theories and thoughts invokes your own memories and initial thoughts. My girlfriend actually just started reading a Game of Thrones, and we've both greatly enjoyed the experience. Sparing her spoilers can be so hard!

 

This first reading by Sunny was a lot of fun. She's obviously a very talented writer and seems to possess a natural finesse for comedy. She had me grinning in some parts and laughing out loud in others. Her theories brought me back, and I was excited to see what she'd say as some of them came true or were debunked.

 

Unfortunately, this light hearted read through is not fun to read anymore. It began as a new person approaching an unknown series with an open mind and is now a sarcastic feminist tearing apart a series I love. It went from a blog about her thoughts on a book series to a way for someone to express their views to an audience, adoring the attention. The theories and comments on the story are rare while there is a comment about sexism in just about every paragraph.

 

I didn't read your blog for your views on Feminism, Sunny. I'm sure you could use google and find many sites willing to debate your views with. This is not the place. I read it because I wanted to see how your fresh eyes would view a world I know well.

 

I'm very disappointed to say that I'm done reading it. My choice, and hey, your choice to continue writing. I doubt you care. But it is sad as I even bookmarked this thread a few days ago as something to read every few days.

[randsc]

Expanded later.

[UncleButcher1980]

Brandon Sanderson posted this on twitter a couple of hours ago, so thought I'd share it. Seems the sexism thing is being discussed on his facebook page at the moment.

 

"Warning: Long update on this topic. As a nod to those who truly know feminist literary theory, I'll make a less "Twitter friendly" argument. Robert Jordan, by creating a world where the women and men are very aware of gender roles, spent a lot of time delving into these topics. I'm convinced he was aware of male privilege, and though biased--as all of us are--sought very hard to overcome his own biases by creating evocative female characters with plot lines that do not center around the obtaining of favor or romantic interest from male characters. He also sought to create a world where women were not defined by how they were viewed by men, but were instead defined by their intelligence, determination, and accomplishments. In this way, though he exposes some small masculine biases in various areas, he was extremely progressive as a dominant male writer of his era, and should be regarded as anything other than "sexist" for his efforts."

 

Long post from Deck.ly 2 hours ago View on Twitter

 

 

 

...Anyway, I'm not looking for sexism. It's right there!...

 

 

Indeed it is, but on both sides. And your faliure to see that is what is bugging some people.

[Isgrimner]

Again, just to reiterate. There is no such thing as reverse sexism.

 

And here is where I'm done reading this thread.

 

As good as this started out and as talented as Sunny is at the general write ups, I'm starting to feel the same. I don't think she will really enjoy the series, she just seems to have too many preconceptions or expectations affecting her reading that it is becoming less fun to read. I get the sense, valid or not, that she really just wishes the book was written with female leads only.

 

I found the slavery/manual labor comment racist, maybe unintentional, but it came across that way to me.

 

I agree there is no such thing as "reverse" sexism, to me its just sexism either way and women can be sexist every bit as much as a man can be.

 

I think some readers are being a little apologetic out of fear Sunny will quit with the write ups. I think if someone who wasn't blogging their progress came in to the forum and posted similar thoughts, you might not be quite so forgiving.

 

 

Nynaeve, the new Wisdom who is too young to command respect.

See, I looked at that as Nynaeve being pretty exceptional and talanted in that she was able to gain such an important position despite being so young. And Wisdom is thought to be an important position to these peeps.

[dholm]

 

I am not sure how much more clearly I can say this -- they are both grammatically correct. If your schooling taught you differently, then it clearly had flaws. Research it yourself, if you do not believe me.

 

 

You can say it as clearly, or as many times, as you like. You're still wrong. See, for example, Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition, paragraph 5.223.

 

If you find yourself unwilling to use the grammatically correct pronoun, the proper course is to recast the sentence such that you no longer need the pronoun. It is not appropriate to use the plural in place of the indefinite.

 

Paragraph 5.223 speaks of biases in language other than gender. Paragraph 5.222 speaks of gender bias, but it simply says that either method is unacceptable to a great many writers. What you should have referenced is paragraph 5.46, which says that singular "they" is acceptable in casual speech and informal writing, but ungrammatical in formal writing.

 

Regardless, the Chicago Manual of Style is a guide, rather than an authority.

 

My apologies for bringing that up again.

[Erunion]

Always Sunny: A couple of things on women holding power - the Wisdom is easily as powerful as the Mayor. Probably more so. Nynaeve is just seen as too young, much as a mayor of the same age would be treated as too young by his elders on the village council.

 

A minor spoiler, you know Andor, Baerlon, the Two Rivers, the whole lot? They're all ruled by a Queen. They have been ruled by Queen's for just under a thousand years, as no male is legally allowed to sit on the Lion Throne of Andor. This is a law that has grown out of a tradition, which will be explained later in the series, but yeah.

The only reason the Queen hasn't been mentioned yet is because, you guessed it, you're still (with 'The Fellowship') stuck in the back-end of nowhere. The Queen's of Andor haven't bothered to send a tax-collector or other Royal Representative to the Two Rivers for a hundred years or so.

 

Keep reading Sunny, and keep your eyes/mind open!

[randsc]

 

I am not sure how much more clearly I can say this -- they are both grammatically correct. If your schooling taught you differently, then it clearly had flaws. Research it yourself, if you do not believe me.

 

 

You can say it as clearly, or as many times, as you like. You're still wrong. See, for example, Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition, paragraph 5.223.

 

If you find yourself unwilling to use the grammatically correct pronoun, the proper course is to recast the sentence such that you no longer need the pronoun. It is not appropriate to use the plural in place of the indefinite.

 

Paragraph 5.223 speaks of biases in language other than gender. Paragraph 5.222 speaks of gender bias, but it simply says that either method is unacceptable to a great many writers. What you should have referenced is paragraph 5.46, which says that singular "they" is acceptable in casual speech and informal writing, but ungrammatical in formal writing.

 

Regardless, the Chicago Manual of Style is a guide, rather than an authority.

 

My apologies for bringing that up again.

 

 

Unlike Wikipedia, which is authoritative.

[randsc]

Alright, I'm back. Nothing little AFA run.

 

Ha, I don't know where this thread is going either. But it's fun getting there.

 

So let me, I guess, tell you what I mean when I say something is sexist. I don't mean that the men think they are better than the women. I don't mean that men hate the women. I don't mean that the men are actively trying to keep women down. All of that matters, sure, but that isn't the point.

 

The point is power. Not physical power or magical power, either. And from where I am in the book, with no knowledge of the armies of Aes Sedai or the dozens of queens and matriarchies I'm sure to find further down the line, the women do not have as much power as the men. It is that simple. Other than Moiraine the women, for whatever reason, are less powerful than the men.

 

Not true. Women have at least as much power as men. They determine how money is spent, who can get married and when, what stories can be told, what songs can be sung. They have exactly half of the formal political power in the village, and more than half the real power.

 

 

Daise was just Wit Congar's wife. Her entire contribution to the story was to yell at Wit and send him to get pins from Fain.

 

 

And who was Wit? Just a guy. And Daise is both a member of the Women's Circle and someone who will play a much larger role in the future. Even without knowing that, there is zero support in the text for the notion that she has less power than Wit.

 

Marin al'Vere is an innkeeper's wife. She's the mayor's wife and she sits on the Women's Council. She made some honeycakes once.

 

Robin Carnahan is the daughter of a governor. She sits in the US Senate. She made some honeycakes once.

 

Does Carnahan lack power? Saying Marin lacks power EXCEPT for the fact that she is a member of the Women's Circle is an absurdity.

 

Sara, the next woman we meet, is an inn employee. Also a cook. She is kinda/sorta motherly to Rand.

 

So what? There is, as far as you can determnine at this point in the story, ZERO relationship between a person's profession and their social standing. This isn't our world, it is the world of a fantasy novel.

 

Min, a street rat who can see the future.

 

Yeah, there's no power in being able to see the future. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.

 

Egwene, the mayor's daughter who is learning how to do magic.

 

Yeah, magic. Magical power. Totally useless. Except, I am sure, that it will help her wash the dishes. Or make me a sammich.

 

Nynaeve, the new Wisdom who is too young to command respect.

Nynaeve, who holds the most important position in her village despite her young age. And who obviously commanded enough respect to get the job. How could anyone see her as having any power?

 

Moiraine, a kick ass wizard.

 

Uh-huh.

 

The men? You've got Tam the ex-swordsman who owns and operates his own farm, Lan the ultimate swordsman,

 

True, and true.

 

Bran with his wicked maul who owns his own inn,

 

With his wife. Or maybe she owns it, and he runs it. Maybe women own all of the property, I don't recall probate records being published in the book. Who knows? Not you.

 

the Two Rivers Boys who have swords and axes and bows and staffs.

 

Which I am sure will be a confort, if they ever tangle with one of the women who can THROW BALLS OF FIRE.

 

Long list of positions of no real power, offered as proof that men hold all positions of real power.

Makes sense somehow, I'm sure.

 

Every single position of power is held by a man,

Execpt for the many that are held by women.

 

from leader of the Whitecloaks

 

Hahahaha, are you sure? Bear in mind, you haven't encountered the leader of the Whitecloaks yet.

 

to Governor of Baerlon

 

How do you know this person is male? You're guilty of male-normative thinking. For shame!

 

Blah, blah, blah, more in the same vein.

And showing the same lack of understanding of the conventions of fantasy novels, in which careers are not synonymous with social standing or political power, and in which the real weapons are never the physical ones.

 

With the exception of Moiraine's magic, Nynaeve's healing, and all the wives' cooking, men have done most of the actions, too.

 

Indeed. With the exception of the displays of SUPERNATURAL power, men have done slightly more than half of the actions.

 

That's why I ignored most of that. Was there anything else Nynaeve could do besides bitch about the men? Anything at all?

 

Besides remomve them from their homes, end their marriages, cause them to be socially ostracised and remove from their political posts? Not much, except for those little things. And one other thing, that would be spoilish to discuss.

 

Again, just to reiterate. There is no such thing as reverse sexism. Sexism is an institutionalized oppression of one gender.

 

Using that (not non-controversial) definition, the world of the WoT is indeed sexist. Against men.

 

It's in politics when women make up 50% of the population but not 50% of the government.

 

Women make up exactly 50% of the only government you have read about so far. Unless we include the Governor of Baerlon, a person of unknown gender. Who is the QUEEN's governor.

 

 

 

First, I'm not outraged. I usually don't get outraged at much. Well, a few things here or there. But this isn't one of them. It is just a book, after all. But look at the line just before the one you highlighted. Tam, Bran, Cenn, and Haral all volunteered to go after the kids. A sick moonshiner, a fat mayor, a dirty old man, and a half-burned blacksmith. Why didn't Alsbet volunteer to go? Why didn't Daise Congar? Why didn't any woman immediately jump up and shout "I'm going to get them back!"

 

Unreal. Or maybe surreal. Which character DID go get them?

 

 

Their sexist ideas, that men need to rescue women or that women are unable to go out rescuing on their own, were going to get them killed if Nynaeve hadn't shot them down.

 

She didn't shoot them down. She left on her own, while they were debating who to send.

 

Seriously, what we have here is Mazlow's Hammer. Your only tool is gender politics, and so every situation looks like sexism.

[David Selig]

It's clear from the early scenes in Two Rivers that the Wisdom has more power and influence than the mayor. Even a really young Wisdom with little experience like Nynaeve was able to openly mock, insult and even beat with her stick the men of the village regularly, including the members of the Village Council, and none of the men could do anything about it. All of this was considered normal and within the rights of the Wisdom. She got involved in any matter she wanted, even those which are supposed to be more in the Village Council competency. On the other hand, the mayor was really reluctant to even try to influence anything which is supposed to be traditionally the business of the Women Circle, and if he had tried to do one third of what Nynaeve did almost every day in terms of insults and using her sturdy stick to thump people, he'd have become an outcast immediately, at least IMO.

[dholm]

 

I am not sure how much more clearly I can say this -- they are both grammatically correct. If your schooling taught you differently, then it clearly had flaws. Research it yourself, if you do not believe me.

 

 

You can say it as clearly, or as many times, as you like. You're still wrong. See, for example, Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition, paragraph 5.223.

 

If you find yourself unwilling to use the grammatically correct pronoun, the proper course is to recast the sentence such that you no longer need the pronoun. It is not appropriate to use the plural in place of the indefinite.

 

Paragraph 5.223 speaks of biases in language other than gender. Paragraph 5.222 speaks of gender bias, but it simply says that either method is unacceptable to a great many writers. What you should have referenced is paragraph 5.46, which says that singular "they" is acceptable in casual speech and informal writing, but ungrammatical in formal writing.

 

Regardless, the Chicago Manual of Style is a guide, rather than an authority.

 

My apologies for bringing that up again.

 

 

Unlike Wikipedia, which is authoritative.

 

 

When did I reference Wikipedia? Agitel linked to the page, but I do not believe I have mentioned the site in this thread until now.

[randsc]

 

 

When did I reference Wikipedia? Agitel linked to the page, but I do not believe I have mentioned the site in this thread until now.

 

Oh that's right, my mistake. You have offered no supporting sources whatsoever.

[dholm]

You would like an authoritative source? How about one even the Chicago Manual of Style uses?

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

[mop]

Brandon Sanderson posted this on twitter a couple of hours ago, so thought I'd share it. Seems the sexism thing is being discussed on his facebook page at the moment.

 

"Warning: Long update on this topic. As a nod to those who truly know feminist literary theory, I'll make a less "Twitter friendly" argument. Robert Jordan, by creating a world where the women and men are very aware of gender roles, spent a lot of time delving into these topics. I'm convinced he was aware of male privilege, and though biased--as all of us are--sought very hard to overcome his own biases by creating evocative female characters with plot lines that do not center around the obtaining of favor or romantic interest from male characters. He also sought to create a world where women were not defined by how they were viewed by men, but were instead defined by their intelligence, determination, and accomplishments. In this way, though he exposes some small masculine biases in various areas, he was extremely progressive as a dominant male writer of his era, and should be regarded as anything other than "sexist" for his efforts."

 

Long post from Deck.ly 2 hours ago View on Twitter

This really sums up the issue well I think, Brandon Sanderson of anyone knows what is what with the WOT. (although it may take you a couple books to really get into it sunny)

[Bluedust9]

I dunno I've found this thread hilarious.

 

In any case I don't think the series is for Always Sunny (In Philadelphia I assume). But keep on truckin'!

[csarmi]

Why didn't any woman immediately jump up and shout "I'm going to get them back!"

External affairs are men's business. And STILL, in the end, Nynaeve go gets them... Plus, women have more sense than that. At least, they like to think so. It's not their way.

 

The little matter that it's only women who can channel (and not get insane, be outlawed, gentled and hated by all) doesn't matter either.

[Always Sunny]

Wow, I am getting no love here tonight.

 

So let's make peace, okay? I'll say nothing more about the politics of Two Rivers. I mean, I must have missed a whole bunch of stuff since I didn't know Wisdoms took care of marriages and all that jazz. And maybe I was wrong in assuming that jobs equal social status. Maybe farmers really are politically important and governors can't even hail a cab after the sun goes down. This is a fantasy, after all.

 

I really don't care any more. I mean, someone I trusted said that this would be a fun book to read and share with other folks. And it is fun to read! Sure, there are stupid parts but I can move beyond that. I saw Battle: Los Angeles today and it was both stupid and a lot of fun.

 

I'm enjoying this book, flaws and all. I like the promise of complicated politics and dirty dealing. I like the dead magic zones, the crumbling Ways, and the Green Man. I like the idea of seeing the Aiel and the Tear-ians and the Tara-whoevers and the Illians and the Shienars and the Shaun Chan. I have no idea who they are but new cultures are always fun! I'm blown away by the Tinkers, I love them so much. And who doesn't want to hug an Ogier?

 

I don't like the idea of demi-gods, of Super Saiyens, of the most powerful people on earth fighting each other with swords and lobbing fireballs at each other. I don't like the idea of Perrin's wolf man and whatever Mat is turning into. I don't like four different kinds of Air monsters (Mordeth, Mashadar, Machin Shin, and that evil wind coming down from Blight) or an army of Trollocs who exist only to be killed by the "good" guys. But I'm willing to go with it to see the rest of the story. Maybe the infighting between ungodly powerful witches will be just as interesting as infighting between normal people. I want to find out!

 

But what do I have to look forward to? More of this forum debate? Even the diehard fans say that the first book is the best, the first three are pretty good, but then it goes downhill and becomes pretty crappy around book ten. Only then does it pick up again. The series, it seems, has the same enjoyability arc as the first novel. It's almost as if it were planned that way...

 

And every chapter I read, every comment I make, will get the same treatment as all my previous. When I say that a guy is being a bad boy for mistreating a woman I'll get called out. When I say someone's favorite character is awful I'll get called out. When I skip over dreams or wolves or prophecies or the descriptions of clothing I'll be called out. That's what's ahead of me if I continue?

 

I'll be honest, here. I've already finished the Eye of the World and am a bit into The Great Hunt (if you hadn't already guessed by what I've written above). I've even got most of the blog posts all written up and saved as drafts (I'm a fast reader and I had a really slow Thursday). I just don't want to, you know, dump all of that here at one time. That's a lot of words. By doing this every-other-day thing I've been doing I am able to stretch out the reading and (I had hoped) get a good discussion going.

 

I am sorely tempted to do just that. Just post them all and walk away. It's not fun anymore. I mean, I say something about what I see in the story. Others tell me that I'm wrong. And when I don't immediately agree that I'm wrong I get pooped all over (I've been told to watch my potty mouth).

 

Even worse? My sunny disposition has faded so that I'm almost looking for things to anger me in the story. I'll gloss over the really cool things to harp on, exaggerate, and write only about the bad things. I don't like being mean. Well, not all the time.

 

Finally, my pride and vanity is getting the best of me. Darn it. People are saying that I've made them laugh. Some even, dare I say it, loled at what I've written. I've even made people quit reading in anger and disgust! Do my words really have that power? Here I just thought I was goofing around.

 

I just want to contribute, you know? I just want to write my little blog, make a few laughs, and maybe change a few minds here and there. Instead things have devolved into these arguments. That's not cool. That's not what I want. I also don't want to go back and edit my upcoming blog posts to tone down the angry parts. I've already scrubbed them for naughty language (I tried to get creative. I don't think it worked.).

 

But the Wheel does its thing, right? We'll see what happens when whatever happens happens. See you in a bit, ya'll!

[Bluedust9]

You're too literal a person looking for literal explanations in high fantasy. I knew from the beginning the books weren't for you. You hate the best parts of the books and it was obvious it's not for you. But that's not an attack or anything. Everyone is different. Be like Charlie and grab a beer and smile. :)

 

There's many more non-fiction books out there for you to devour.

[randsc]

You would like an authoritative source? How about one even the Chicago Manual of Style uses?

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

 

Which makes it clear that the use of they as an indefinite singular is not without controversy.

 

Every source anyone has cited makes it clear that there are a lot of people who would like the use of they as a singular to be standard English, but that that use remains controversial. Ergo, not "just as correct."