First Time Reading the First Book

[icspots]

PS: One other thing. The issue of Nyneave facing doubt because of her age and calling that sexist: Just to maybe put another perspective on this, imagine that it was a young Mayor, chosen by the village council because he was so good at negotiating wool prizes with the merchants coming to the Two Rivers. He has an important skill for society, something that no one else can equal (just as Nyneave is so good at listening to wind and healing). So, he was chosen as the mayer even though he's only 21 (just like Nyneave). If this was the case, could there be any doubt, that this young mayor would face similar doubts from people much older than him? The village council might not voice their doubts, since it was them that did the choosing in the first place (just as the Women Circle in the case of Nyneave), but some women twice the mayor's age would certainly think him too young and not fit for the position, no?

 

Pretty sure Nynaeve is around 27 in tEotW, and one of the biggest things that makes people not respect her isn't necessarily her age but rather that she doesn't look her age. She looks like that 21 year old you mention so in that perspective you're spot on.

 

I agree, fantastic first post.

[Agitel]

Nynaeve's age is given in LoC or CoS, I forget, but she's about 24 at the start of the series.

 

Anyway, after all that talk of Jordan's bias, I thought I should go back and cover one big issue. Always Sunny's noticed women in the subcontinent that is the primary setting rarely pick up swords to fight at all, and AS has viewed this almost as being a statement from Jordan that women shouldn't or can't bear arms. I'm just going to come out and say that Jordan certainly doesn't believe that and it will be shown in the novels in a variety of ways. In addition, cultures will be challenged on the gender roles they've established as the series progresses. Viewing everything as a statement on gender this early may be premature.

[alykyn]

I think the main problem that you are having Always Sunny is that you

 

1) Don't like this genre irregardless of what particular writer you are reading.

2) You ARE specifically looking for things to critique no matter how good or bad the writing is.

 

For #1, there's nothing I can say except since this 'isn't your cup of tea' you really shouldn't

be reading it. If you tried to make me read a historical book about how cart wagons were invented and

what they were used for in the 1400's I'd be pretty disinterested as well and I could probably

liven it up by critiquing how inane the people back then did things.

 

For #2, you can really critique ANYTHING harshly. There is no book, let alone a movie that you can't

rip to shreds if you want to. Don't even have to talk about tv shows which never even try half as hard

as either. It's called 'suspension of disbelief'. Of course it's all a silly hard to believe story, that

is what FANTASY is. You really have to have a lot of imagination to fill in the gaps of what you feel

like is missing.

 

Also, while you make a *few* valid points about sexism (Who ever said that there wasn't ANY sexism

or gender bias in this series???), there is also plenty of ageism (which didnt seem to bother you at all),

racism, inequality for animals (who are eaten, their fur and skin used for human pleasure and convenience

not because there isn't any other choice) and especially plenty of ant-channeling'ism (which also doesn't

seem to upset you at all). It seems like the only 'ism which does perturb you is one that PERSONALLY bothers

you. So it isn't like you are just a champion for all equality, you have your own 'bias' and really harp on

the only thing which bothers you, which is male/female inequality, but all the other inequalities can go to

hell in a hand basket. So your critiquing eyes are definitely wearing very rose colored glasses so to speak.

When you critique in a 'champion of all injustices' sort of way then maybe we'd all back off on critiquing

you back. Keep that in mind if you keep posting that this may be why you are being attacked back.

 

Also, on the sexism front I am a young gay male and I ADORE strong, powerful women & so do MANY in the gay community

who also happen to really LOVE this series. We're a huge supporter of STRONG women in control, where the men often

have to take a backseat & this series IS the epitome of strong women who don't take shit from anybody and who basically

rule the world. Do they 'need' a man, this 'Dragon Reborn' to save the world? They need him in the same way you 'need' a hammer

to smash a nail into a wall. When you're done with the nail you have no feelings for what happens to the hammer...

 

I don't think it's spoler'ish to tell you that many Aes Sedai view men as less than dirt, and the Dragon Reborn as

some fool puppet whom they plan to use to dance for them. If there is a general sexism it is that women are superior and

all men regardless of talent, strength or the One Power are INFERIOR to women. However seeing as you already basically hate

the genre and the series no matter what you read in the next books you won't find enjoyable, no matter how skewed the world

is in favor of women. Also, no one said that Robert Jordan was the greatest writer the world has ever seen, just that his

world is so in depth and involved and complex that people have written literally millions of comments, questions and blogs

and more talking about and trying to understand all the nuances of his literary world, which when you compare to any other

series is in itself a huge accomplishment and tells you much about how well loved the series as a whole is. Even after a

record breaking TWENTY ONE YEARS of writing the series is not finished and yet it's fans are still interested. You'd be

hard pressed to find any other series except for maybe Star Wars that anyone would care about after a couple of years let

alone TWENTY ONE, so in my opinion and many others this series ranks up with one of the most epic stories of all time

despite all of it's failings.

 

 

By the way, I have NO problem with you on a personal level, this is purely a response according to your blogs.

[UGAShadow]

One thing you have to get used to in the Fantasy genre is a bunch of exposition. Most fantasy stories are set in totally different worlds that we know nothing about. The only way you're going to ever know anything about the world is that the author has to explain it.

 

 

 

The first books are much more male centric than the latter books. The first book is the worst about it. The second and third make it less and less. The fourth book though is where the women characters really start to get TOTALLY awesome. So, I'd recommend you at least read to there. If you don't like that book the Fantasy genre might not be for you. Its generally considered to be the best book of the series.

[RelentlessAttack]

^Agreed, you should read until TSR and if you still don't like it, it's not for you, and i think neither is this entire style of very traditional epic fantasy. You could maybe try Malazan, it might be up your alley. Much grittier than the Wheel of Time, and much less exposition, though more confusing at times

[Agitel]

Ouch. A lot of harsh criticism in the last few posts.

 

I disagree with them. I don't think anything near "if you can't appreciate WoT, then you can't appreciate fantasy in general". That's just silly. The Wheel of Time is one of my favorite fantasy series. I still hope that Always Sunny will come to appreciate the series more as they get deeper into it and peel back the layers of this massive onion. But let's not kid ourselves. I've always offered ample warning for those picking up the Wheel of Time. It's a massive investment in time for most readers, and Jordan is a detail oriented writer who gives lots of exposition. I feel he comes into his element as the series continues, but I know that sort of writing is NOT for everyone. Granted, I know Always Sunny's criticisms go beyond that, but I'd like to see where it goes as the series progresses. It may continue, or it may relax, we'll see. Personally, I always liked Jordan's use of words beyond EotW. It had an almost poetic quality to it, the words roll off the tongue almost melodically to me. Okay, slight exaggeration, but the writing tends to flow well.

 

Perhaps rather than just dismiss Always Sunny as someone who can't enjoy fantasy, maybe we can come up with shorter fantasy works that they might like to try when they have time after that are generally considered to be very well written and full of social commentary. It should be noted that social commentary tends to take a back seat to the story itself in fantasy, more so than in other genres. To a large degree fantasy is escapism, though not only that. An author who is less wordy than Jordan may also be nice. Brandon Sanderson comes to mind, though he's still a young author gaining experience, but he's far more straightforward. Not that he has a lot of social commentary. Then again, I don't read a ton of fantasy, I'm just a WoT, ASoIaF and LotR dork.

 

Speaking of Lord of the Rings, I think Always Sunny would have absolutely HATED it. Very detailed and wordy and chock full of exposition, pretty black and white (not the world itself, but the story), and written in almost a high and classical style. A lot of contemporary fantasy tried very much to march in Tolkien's footsteps, given the standard he set and how he is often considered the founder of contemporary fantasy.

[sVieira151]

Ouch. A lot of harsh criticism in the last few posts.

 

I disagree with them. I don't think anything near "if you can't appreciate WoT, then you can't appreciate fantasy in general". That's just silly. The Wheel of Time is one of my favorite fantasy series. I still hope that Always Sunny will come to appreciate the series more as they get deeper into it and peel back the layers of this massive onion. But let's not kid ourselves. I've always offered ample warning for those picking up the Wheel of Time. It's a massive investment in time for most readers, and Jordan is a detail oriented writer who gives lots of exposition. I feel he comes into his element as the series continues, but I know that sort of writing is NOT for everyone. Granted, I know Always Sunny's criticisms go beyond that, but I'd like to see where it goes as the series progresses. It may continue, or it may relax, we'll see. Personally, I always like Jordan's use of words beyond EotW. It had an almost poetic quality to it, the words roll off the tongue almost melodically to me. Okay, slight exaggeration, but the writing tends to flow well.

 

Perhaps rather than just dismiss Always Sunny as someone who can't enjoy fantasy, maybe we can come up with shorter fantasy works that they might like to try when they have time after that are generally considered to be very well written and full of social commentary. It should be noted that social commentary tends to take a back seat to the story itself in fantasy, more so than in other genres. To a large degree fantasy is escapism, though not only that. An author who is less wordy than Jordan may also be nice. Brandon Sanderson comes to mind, though he's still a young author gaining experience, but he's far more straightforward. Not that he has a lot of social commentary. Then again, I don't read a ton of fantasy, I'm just a WoT, ASoIaF and LotR dork.

 

Speaking of Lord of the Rings, I think Always Sunny would have absolutely HATED it. Very detailed and wordy and chock full of exposition, pretty black and white (not the world itself, but the story), and written in almost a high and classical style. A lot of contemporary fantasy tried very much to march in Tolkien's footsteps, given the standard he set and how he is often considered the founder of contemporary fantasy.

 

Amen. Give her a chance everybody, yah? She may very well enjoy later books.

 

And about LotR agitel, she has seen the films. She might be able to relate the book(s) to the films. This might let her enjoy it a bit more than if she hadn't seen the films.

[RelentlessAttack]

Ouch. A lot of harsh criticism in the last few posts.

 

I disagree with them. I don't think anything near "if you can't appreciate WoT, then you can't appreciate fantasy in general". That's just silly. The Wheel of Time is one of my favorite fantasy series. I still hope that Always Sunny will come to appreciate the series more as they get deeper into it and peel back the layers of this massive onion. But let's not kid ourselves. I've always offered ample warning for those picking up the Wheel of Time. It's a massive investment in time for most readers, and Jordan is a detail oriented writer who gives lots of exposition. I feel he comes into his element as the series continues, but I know that sort of writing is NOT for everyone. Granted, I know Always Sunny's criticisms go beyond that, but I'd like to see where it goes as the series progresses. It may continue, or it may relax, we'll see. Personally, I always like Jordan's use of words beyond EotW. It had an almost poetic quality to it, the words roll off the tongue almost melodically to me. Okay, slight exaggeration, but the writing tends to flow well.

 

Yeah by no means was I suggesting that she wouldn't enjoy any fantasy, but rather just this type of epic fantasy that's based on the archetypes found in LotR

[UGAShadow]

I haven't found a Fantasy book I like more than The Shadow Rising. If you don't like that, I don't think the Epic Fantasy series is the thing for her. She could find some other types of fantasy (I love the Dresden Files, an urban fantasy series set in Chicago) but The Shadow Rising is IMO the pinnacle of its genre.

 

 

I'm not saying she couldn't like another epic fantasy series. I just think its unlikely if you don't like The Shadow Rising.

[Sleeper]

I haven't found a Fantasy book I like more than The Shadow Rising. If you don't like that, I don't think the Epic Fantasy series is the thing for her. She could find some other types of fantasy (I love the Dresden Files, an urban fantasy series set in Chicago) but The Shadow Rising is IMO the pinnacle of its genre.

 

 

I'm not saying she couldn't like another epic fantasy series. I just think its unlikely if you don't like The Shadow Rising.

The Dresden Files is a great series (one of my favorites), and it does have some completely ass-kicking female characters in it that I'm sure Sunny would like

 

I dunno if it's the right setting for her though, what with all the magic and stuff.

[UGAShadow]

Yeah, Dresden Files has some great women. Though Dresden's take on women might turn her off.

[Agitel]

If Always Sunny doesn't like The Shadow Rising, then they don't like Jordan as an author. I wouldn't rule out all of epic fantasy just yet.

[David Casto]

Hi,

I'm new to this site but I just wanted to say that I love reading this blog! Much of what Sunny has to say does annoy me... but I completely understand getting a kick out of agrivating others. It's nice to hear from a new, um, "perspective"

 

Hope you finish the series!

[Always Sunny]

When someone just compounds the word hate I really stop caring.

 

I don't mean to sound mean but I have no idea what compounding the word hate means. That's a lot of "mean" in what I hope comes across as a nice sentence!

 

The first thing that popped into my mind was hate-screw. Well, not screw, but I'm trying to watch my language here. That's a compound word with hate in it. But I can't think of any compound words with hate in it that fits in the context here. It's like a puzzle, you know? I've got to figure it out or it'll drive me crazy!

 

I think this would be a better read if A)It was funny or B)

it was an academic view of the series. As it stands it is neither

 

Ouch. Not funny? I mean, I could accept it not being academic since that's not what I was really going for. But not funny? You could be right. Stand up is not my forte, after all.

 

It boggles me mind that

when you sound like a cat in washing machine you wonder why that

bothers people.

 

Now that, in all honesty, was funny.

 

You don't seem to view fantasy with anything but contempt.

 

I wouldn't say that. I view it with fascination, too. I view it with a sense of "is this it?" I don't know a single word that covers that feeling but there you go. Sometimes, sometimes, I even enjoy it a bit.

 

But do we see any of the females complain about their stations or their jobs.

 

....

 

It seems that the women are content with their 'social positions'.

 

....

 

Yeah, it is sexist. But the female characters are fine with it.

 

So you agree that it's sexist but sexism is okay because no one complains about it? Well, then I'm halfway to my point already! I would argue that the women (or the men, even) don't complain because the very idea that their world is sexist hasn't occurred to them. It'd be more than a century from this point in time (in the real world) before books started to be written about feminism. Even then, it was in the urban centers and not backwaters like this place.

 

So they are happy, sure. I'm happy for them! But life would be better for them, I think, and they'd find even more joy with true equality. Yes, even if they don't realize it, yet.

 

And if women were unable to do anything but temporarily seal the Dark One away without the help of men? If women broke the world and destroyed civilization when it probably could have been avoided if they'd listened to men and hadn't acted rashly? If women were forbidden from doing sorcery, men were far more chauvinist, and an all-male institution that had it's fingers in everything and which many of its followers openly disdained women was the most respected one in the world?

 

That world would suck, yes, just as much as this one. But no one would be on the forums defending the sexism there, would they? Well, hardly anyone. It'd be obvious that this is a crappy world, we'd all agree, and then we'd enjoy the book for what it was.

 

Think about it. Instead of putting men in charge and making women responsible for all the woes of the world Robert Jordan inverted it. But he didn't change the rest of the world! Women are still nurturers, the caretakers, the cooks, the adoring wives, the healers, the gossips, the sneaky sneaks. Men are the protectors, the fighters, the saviors, the hard workers, the bread winners, the Creators, the Dark Ones, the cannon fodder. It's still a world of "women and children first!" when the boat sinks, you know? Major points as they relate to the plot have been flipped, gender-wise, but the nuts and bolts of the world still conform to gender norms. Men penetrate and women surrender. Men take care of matters outside of the house while women take care of the inside. Men tackle problems head on by themselves while women work together to get around problems.

 

So, yes, there are women on top. There are powerful queens and Aes Sedai and Aiel. I don't deny that. I can't deny that. But if we stop focusing on the named major characters and look at the background, at the bit characters that reveal the rest of the world, things stop being radically different than the real world. It starts looking the same.

 

I will admit, though, that this could be because there is less written about the background characters so I'm filling in the gaps with my own biases. I realize that this might be the case. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong, does it?

 

 

I suppose he also could have just scrapped the story completely, one side or the other, to avoid any risk of sexism, but where's the fun in that? Then he's actively choosing not to do a plot, no matter which way it's flipped, because he's afraid no matter which side he makes men and which side he makes women it'll be viewed as sexist against women.

 

That's the thing I like about non-fiction: It doesn't need a plot to work. Novels, stories, they've got to have a plot. Non-fiction just needs a thesis.

 

Imagine if the Wheel of Time didn't have a plot. Imagine if we just followed Rand al'Thor on his adventure with no prophecy, no cuts to other characters' POVs, no overall drive to save the world. Just Rand fighting the Trollocs, meeting new friends, seeing new cultures, and just ending up in the Last Battle as a result of his own choices instead of the author leading him there. It's be interesting, to be sure!

 

Another influence on why he chose this story was because he was focusing on the stories of Tyr (Rand), Odin (Mat), and Thor (Perrin)

 

Well, that explains who that guy is with the two crows. There's a picture in the comment section of the blog with a guy holding a pole-arm and crows. I guess he's Mat, then. It makes sense since everyone seems to love Mat around Book 3 or 4.

 

A long time ago you said "Two Rivers is sexist blah blah and women have no power." Somebody showed you a quote that went something like: "Cenn if you don't keep out of women's circle business you'll be doing your own cooking, and it won't be in my kitchen. You'll be making your own bed, but it won't be in my house." I thought "yeah, that guy really showed her a great quote that can't be denied" because what I mainly see in the quote is that the women own the property in the Two Rivers, the women's circle makes the decisions, and men had better keep their collective noses out of it.

 

Very good point! You read it to mean that Cenn's wife (I can't remember the actual quote but I think we can agree on the gist of what was said) owned the house when she said "my kitchen" and under "my roof." But I took it more like a teenager saying these things. If my teenage daughter were to say that I needed to get out of "her room" would that mean she owned the room, that her word was law there?

 

It felt, to me, like a denial of service when Cenn's wife rebuked him rather than an authority figure telling her subordinate what would happen without obedience. If felt like a strike from an employee rather than an admonishment from an equal co-owner.

 

All that you saw was that the only power women have is to take away their cooking, what a sexist pig RJ is. Why didn't you care that it is the wife's house?

 

It wasn't that I didn't care. It was more like I didn't see it that way. Try looking at it another way. What would a house with all men look like? Say, a bunch of brothers. One of them surely would have to cook and clean, right? Would that brother be considered equal, in the social hierarchy of brothers, to the ones that worked out in the field? Would he be looked down upon by his peers for doing women's work instead of what he's supposed to do?

 

How about a house with nothing but sisters. That would mean some women would have to go out and toil in the fields. Would those women, with their sun-dried skin and calloused fingers, be considered "less womanly" than their dish-washing sister inside?

 

What I mean to ask is this: does stepping outside the gender norms make a person seem less than they would otherwise be? If so then why? If the jobs are equal in status, if a plow driver and a soup cooker are equal in social standing, then why would doing a job with equal value in society make someone not as good?

 

Or how about this: is a woman acting like a man (for example, Min dressing like a boy) more socially acceptable than a man acting like a woman (for example, Perrin dressing as a girl)? In the real world it is better for a girl to act like a boy because boys are valued more than girls (thus, you know, who wouldn't want to be a boy?). But in a world where both genders are equal it'd be just as acceptable for Perrin to wear a skirt as it is for Min to wear pants. Is that the case?

 

If they help Egwene, they're sexist pigs for not letting her get her face bashed in. If they don't help her, they're sexist pigs for not caring about her.

 

 

These poor characters can't win.

 

When did I say this? If they help Egwene then more power to them! Everyone needs help. But if they help her because she's a woman then I have a problem. If they refuse to help those closest to them so they can go way over there to help Egwene then I have a problem. If they say that people need to pull their own weight on the trail but then proceed to make things easier for Egwene then I've got a problem. If she seems happy with a boy but they go out of their way to protect her from her own happiness then I have a problem.

 

If they let her run up to a monster that's about to kill her, if they run up along side her and die next to her in a heroic last stand, then I've got no problem. If they don't make a big deal about how she wears her hair then I've got no problem. If they have a habit of knocking down both male and female friends to keep them from running into danger then I've got no problem.

 

These characters can win! There are so many ways to win, it's not even funny! But they don't win. I believe the popular word these days is "fail". They are full of it sometimes.

 

1) Don't like this genre irregardless of what particular writer you are reading.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Over the weekend my Amazon.com shipment came in. Boy, that box was heavy! But in there were a few fantasy novels that I wanted to try. I finished one yesterday and I loved it!

 

It was American Gods by Neil Gaiman. It was a story about gods (even Nordic gods!) fighting epic fights for the future of the world. It had dreams and monsters, too. It was great and really, really different than the Wheel of Time. It makes me want to read more by the guy (I hear he writes comics, too, but I've never been into those). Too bad I don't have any more of his books. Next up is Perdido Street Station by China Mieville, fiction-wise.

 

2) You ARE specifically looking for things to critique no matter how good or bad the writing is.

 

Well, yes. Nothing is above critique, you know. And everything should be critiqued. We can't let some works enter our minds, bury themselves deep into our heads, without questioning what they really mean. Especially fiction! Gotta ask why, why, why!

 

 

Also, while you make a *few* valid points about sexism (Who ever said that there wasn't ANY sexism

or gender bias in this series???), there is also plenty of ageism (which didnt seem to bother you at all),

racism, inequality for animals (who are eaten, their fur and skin used for human pleasure and convenience

not because there isn't any other choice) and especially plenty of ant-channeling'ism (which also doesn't

seem to upset you at all). It seems like the only 'ism which does perturb you is one that PERSONALLY bothers

you. So it isn't like you are just a champion for all equality, you have your own 'bias' and really harp on

the only thing which bothers you, which is male/female inequality, but all the other inequalities can go to

hell in a hand basket. So your critiquing eyes are definitely wearing very rose colored glasses so to speak.

When you critique in a 'champion of all injustices' sort of way then maybe we'd all back off on critiquing

you back. Keep that in mind if you keep posting that this may be why you are being attacked back.

 

I wouldn't say I ignore ageism. I haven't seen much of it, to be honest. Are we talking about old folks not trusting young folks? Or are we talking about kids thinking adults are stupid? Or is it more serious, where once a person reaches a certain age they're considered dead weight and are killed so they don't hog resources for kids? Or even worse, are children considered to be little more than animals, to be worked and molested to death (or until they are old enough to fight back)? What kind of ageism are you talking about?

 

Racism? There have been three races so far. Andoran, Shienaran, and Aiel. I've frequently pointed out how Emond's Field isn't racist enough! Such a small town shouldn't be so cool about having a half-non-Andoran growing up with them. But they're cool with it so maybe racism isn't such a big deal in small town Andor. The Shienar people don't like the Aiel too much and I do point that out when we get there in the second book. As for the Aiel? As of this point in Book 1 there hasn't been any of them on screen so how am I supposed to know if they are racist?

 

Of course, we could include the Ogier and the Trollocs as "races" if you want. Then, yeah, there is a lot of racism against Trollocs. They've shown the ability to plan and execute coordinated attacks that limit collateral damage in order to achieve some sort of limited objective (kidnap Rand or free Padan Fain and steal the Horn). They have logistical skills to move armies across the continent, too. But everyone calls them dumb brutes, pillaging monsters who want nothing more than to eat babies. What they do and what the people think about them are pretty good proof of anti-Trolloc racism. I point that out and I'm told that this kinda racism is okay because that's what fantasy books are all about.

 

I don't think it's spoler'ish to tell you that many Aes Sedai view men as less than dirt, and the Dragon Reborn as

some fool puppet whom they plan to use to dance for them.

 

Yes, I've read about the Red Ajah already so I know about this. And it is stupid. Gendercide? Really? That's not a good way to maintain your PR, Tar Valon! Plus, you know, it's morally bad.

 

But that's Book 2 and further on. It has no impact on how I feel about the Aes Sedai (and the women in general) in Book 1.

 

You'd be

hard pressed to find any other series except for maybe Star Wars that anyone would care about after a couple of years let

alone TWENTY ONE, so in my opinion and many others this series ranks up with one of the most epic stories of all time

despite all of it's failings.

 

Really? How about the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Mahabharata, I Ching, Beowulf, the Odyssey? Those are pretty epic and took years to complete and have a huge readership. You want more modern? Shakespeare and Chaucer and Jane Austin and Mark Twain and Kurt Vonnegut and Isaac Asimov have large bodies of work that people enjoy to this day. I didn't have to think too hard to come up with authors and works that people care about years after publication.

 

Here's a question, though. Once this series is finished, once all of us who have read it so far have died of old age, do you think it'll still be as popular? A century from now people will read it, no doubt. But I doubt it'll be an icon of Western Literature. It'll be just another fantasy series that lots of people loved, lots of people read, and lots of people completely ignored. This isn't to say that it's a bad series, of course, or that the books were bad. I'm just saying it isn't as popular as you make it out to be.

 

By the way, I have NO problem with you on a personal level, this is purely a response according to your response to my blogs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Annnnnnyway. I'm taking a break from Dragonmount for a week or two. I've got a pretty good epic tetralogy here on my desk that I plan on reading. It's called the Oxford History of the United States. The four books only go up to 1974 so I'm guessing there is another book out there yet to be published. Looking forward to it! I was inspired to buy it, indirectly, because of the Wheel of Time.

 

See, these books got me interested in the 18th Century a bit. So I started reading Crucible of War, a book about the Seven Years' War (which, if the Wheel of Time world were real would take place, technologically, twenty or thirty years into the future). And that book was great so I wanted the "sequel." What was the sequel to the French and Indian War in US history? Yes, the Revolution. Thus I see Crucible of War as a prequel to the series I'm about to start. Sure, I know bunches about US history but it's never a bad thing to read and refresh, no? Consider it a re-read!

 

But that means I'm taking a break from the internet (mostly) and all this social networking (definitely). Bad for my mojo, you know. But then I'll be refreshed and I'll come back better than ever. We can continue to talk here, too, and go way off topic since the topic has pretty much been discussed. I'll probably start a new thread for Book 2.

[Guest cindy.]

(please do yourself a favor and get the audio book of neil gaman's graveyard book - and be prepared to buy a new copy for every one you lend out, cause noone ever gives them back. it's that good. must be audio book bc like most of his stuff, he reads it himself, and his voice is perfectly spooky and delightful for this book)

[aball]

American Gods is a great book. Even though you don't like comic books, I would give the Sandman series a try. It is also by Neil Gaiman and it is pretty much the pinnacle of that art form.

[csarmi]

So no blog on TGH?

 

My life is ruined...

[Agitel]

Think about it. Instead of putting men in charge and making women responsible for all the woes of the world Robert Jordan inverted it. But he didn't change the rest of the world! Women are still nurturers, the caretakers, the cooks, the adoring wives, the healers, the gossips, the sneaky sneaks. Men are the protectors, the fighters, the saviors, the hard workers, the bread winners, the Creators, the Dark Ones, the cannon fodder. It's still a world of "women and children first!" when the boat sinks, you know? Major points as they relate to the plot have been flipped, gender-wise, but the nuts and bolts of the world still conform to gender norms. Men penetrate and women surrender. Men take care of matters outside of the house while women take care of the inside. Men tackle problems head on by themselves while women work together to get around problems.

 

I think you need to read more.

[sVieira151]

So you agree that it's sexist but sexism is okay because no one complains about it? Well, then I'm halfway to my point already! I would argue that the women (or the men, even) don't complain because the very idea that their world is sexist hasn't occurred to them. It'd be more than a century from this point in time (in the real world) before books started to be written about feminism. Even then, it was in the urban centers and not backwaters like this place.

 

So they are happy, sure. I'm happy for them! But life would be better for them, I think, and they'd find even more joy with true equality. Yes, even if they don't realize it, yet.

 

Yeah, I agree there are sexist elements in the book. Most likely due to RoJo's own biases. I don't think it's okay because nobody complains about it. Just like how I don't think racism is okay, or sectarianism(had to grow up with Rangers and Celtic(Glasgow) fans ). I'm just one of those people where I feel if most people are happy, then I'm fine with it. If most people don't like it, then something needs to be done. All the women in Emond's Field wish to be blacksmith's? Let them be blacksmiths or farmers or thatchers. It's sexist and unfair for them to not have freedom to do so. But if they are content to do their dishes and make sure the son hasn't gotten into trouble? They do that if they wish

Yeah, they may very well find more happiness with true equality. But we'll never know. I suppose it's also down to personal preference with what they want to do. We never get into the minds of the background characters, so we never find out if they are happy doing what they do. Though with RoJo's bias' I suppose they'd be made to be content.

 

Also, in my thing that you quoted, I meant to say that the 'woman don't complain about work' rather than 'women do'

 

You'll find hints of 'racism' in all nations of Randland/Earth. Though I wouldnt call it racism, I'm not clued up on the term needed. It's kinda like Portugal/Spain hating on each other, or England/Scotland sorta relationships between them. Also, nobody likes the Aiel and the Aiel like no-one

And the Trollocs? They organised nothing They followed orders. I'm not sure if you're told early on, but a fist of Trollocs are attached to a Fade in some wierd bond thing. The Fade controls them and tells them what to do. Trollocs just bash and eat stuff

 

Anyways, hope you contine the blogs sometime in the future

[alykyn]

Inequality for animals (who are eaten, their fur and skin used for human pleasure and convenience

not because there isn't any other choice) and especially plenty of ant-channeling'ism (which also doesn't

seem to upset you at all). It seems like the only 'ism which does perturb you is one that PERSONALLY bothers

you. So it isn't like you are just a champion for all equality, you have your own 'bias' and really harp on

the only thing which bothers you, which is male/female inequality, but all the other inequalities can go to

hell in a hand basket. So your critiquing eyes are definitely wearing very rose colored glasses so to speak.

When you critique in a 'champion of all injustices' sort of way then maybe we'd all back off on critiquing

you back. Keep that in mind if you keep posting that this may be why you are being attacked back.

 

You left out answering the following:

 

1) the animal inequality (don't you feel bad for the wee beasties at all? No justice for them from you at all)

 

2) the anti channeler sentiment (shouldn't you be championing that it isn't their fault they can channel, and without

channeling none of the Age of legends would ever have existed, and how the men sacrificed their lives to seal the Dark One

and how those poor men have gone insane for thousands of years, and what about the women channelers who managed to keep

the whole world from being destroyed? No justice for them from you?)

 

Don't just pick and choose your battles please. I attacked your arguments on multiple fronts, so I'd like to hear why

you don't champion these causes, just the sexism.

 

Here's a question, though. Once this series is finished, once all of us who have read it so far have died of old age, do you think it'll still be as popular? A century from now people will read it, no doubt. But I doubt it'll be an icon of Western Literature. It'll be just another fantasy series that lots of people loved, lots of people read, and lots of people completely ignored. This isn't to say that it's a bad series, of course, or that the books were bad. I'm just saying it isn't as popular as you make it out to be.

 

You really have no leg to stand on here, you just can't know what the future holds for this or any other series.

[Bluedust9]

It admitted to only posting for emotion, why feed it?

 

Edit: And yes, it's an it. I have no respect for anything that admits it gets wet trolling for negative responses. It shows how messed up the person is mentally.

[Luckers]

Hey guys, given the number of threads being started by people documenting their first read or first re-read of the Wheel, I am now directing people to two alternatives. Firstly, there is our blog system wherein you can relate your thoughts and feelings upon the series, secondly there is the Structured Wheel of Time, where you can discuss things with others up to the book you have currently read.

 

But multiple threads on the same topic are getting excessive, and I do not see how a joint thread can work--therefore, the blog for relation of your thoughts, and the Structured forum for discussion.