Bonds and other worlds...

[Phelix]

So, to begin, if any of my assumptions are wrong, please let me know.

 

Now, to really begin....

 

We know that the Moiraine/Lan Bond snapped because Moiraine left the plane of existence Lan was on and her path back was destroyed. The fact that there were other paths back (the other door and the Tower of Ghenji) did not matter. Moiraine did not die while in Finnland, but the bond still snapped.

 

We also know that the World of Dreams (T'A'R) is another plane as well, a world that connects to all worlds, but is outside them all too.

 

Based on those two facts, my question is if Rand or Egwene Traveled into the World of Dreams after having bonded/been bonded, would their bonds snap when they let the Gateway close?

Personally, I'm torn. I don't know what I believe to be correct. On the one had, T'A'R touches all worlds, so you could argue that would maintain the connection of the bond. The obvious rebuttal to that, though, is the channeler would have physically left the plane their bonded exists on, just like Moiraine did.

 

I can't think of a time recently when Rand has physically entered the Dream, at least not since he bonded his ladies.

 

(A random thought occured to me as I wrote that... perhaps as part of his faux-death, Rand enters the Dream physically, snapping his bonds? Meh... that's a different topic all together.)

Thoughts?

[Ananta]

This is what I think happened:

Moiraine cut the bond herself, so that Lan would think she died and wouldn't try to follow her and rescue her.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Moiraine probably cut the bond. She knew she would be captured by the Finn and didn't want Lan to suffer with her.

[Phelix]

Nope, per RJ you have to be in close contact to sever the bond willingly.

 

TOR Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, tough on him.

 

 

Moiraine did not release Lan from the Bond before she went to the docks, and she couldn't release him after she went through the ter'angreal... Lan felt her up until she went through and the door melted. Ergo, the bond was snapped and not willingly released.

[Ananta]

Nope, per RJ you have to be in close contact to sever the bond willingly.

 

TOR Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, tough on him.

 

 

Moiraine did not release Lan from the Bond before she went to the docks, and she couldn't release him after she went through the ter'angreal... Lan felt her up until she went through and the door melted. Ergo, the bond was snapped and not willingly released.

I know this is a bit nitpicking, but that quote only mentions cutting the bond so that the bad side effects don't happen, while in this case Lan still got the bad side effects.

 

And we all know how vague RJ could be.

[Phelix]

Nope, per RJ you have to be in close contact to sever the bond willingly.

 

TOR Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, tough on him.

 

 

Moiraine did not release Lan from the Bond before she went to the docks, and she couldn't release him after she went through the ter'angreal... Lan felt her up until she went through and the door melted. Ergo, the bond was snapped and not willingly released.

I know this is a bit nitpicking, but that quote only mentions cutting the bond so that the bad side effects don't happen, while in this case Lan still got the bad side effects.

 

And we all know how vague RJ could be.

 

I'm sorry, but if there were a way to sever the bond even with the effects, it would at least require contact/proximity, just like the original weave and the releasing weave do. Even if it didn't require close proximity, I highly doubt Moiraine decided to spend her last moments fighting Lanfear and spinning a second weave back at Lan. Also, if it were a delayed part of her original tranfer weave to Myrelle, there would have been hints of that somewhere in the text. It just doesn't pass the basic sense test.

 

If Moiraine knew of a weave that effectively snapped the bond, why didn't she use the gentler version that would have prevented Lan from feeling the pain? When she was rescued and mentions Lan, wouldn't she talk about what she did? I'm at work, so I'm going on memory that she didn't, but I'll check the book when I get home.

 

But no, RJ's comment doesn't even hint at other options... so I'm going to say it's extremely unlikely there's another way to snap the bond at will.

[Kestrel]

Moraine's bond with Lan WASN'T snapped. It was transferred to another sister - a specific sister. Moraine cast the weave that set up the transfer before she confronted Lanfear.

 

If Lan's bond with Moraine had been merely snapped, Lan would have been set free, albeit painfully.

[Phelix]

Moraine's bond with Lan WASN'T snapped. It was transferred to another sister - a specific sister. Moraine cast the weave that set up the transfer before she confronted Lanfear.

 

If Lan's bond with Moraine had been merely snapped, Lan would have been set free, albeit painfully.

 

 

No, you misunderstand. Moiraine altered her bond to Lan so that when she died/left the plane, his bond would shift to Myrelle. Moiraine's bond to Lan does snap. Lan no longer feels Moiraine, but he goes through the classic stages of Warder's Snapped Bond syndrome.

 

If Moiraine had simply transferred the bond to Myrelle, it would have happened like we saw Myrelle transfer the bond to Nynaeve.

 

Yes, Moiraine's bond to Lan was altered so that it shifted to Myrelle, but the trigger for that shift was the original bond snapping.

 

Here is some related analysis from Linda at the 13th Depository (emphasis mine) :

 

The forcible transfer of Lan’s bond to Myrelle was regarded by Siuan as rape:

 

Aes Sedai put bonding a man against his will on a level with rape.

 

-

A Crown of Swords,

A Morning of Victory

 

An unbidden Warder bond is a form of involuntary intimacy even though Moiraine meant well. (It will be interesting to see if Siuan says anything to Moiraine about it.) Myrelle went further and at the least tried to get Lan into her bed as part of his therapy; the bite mark on Lan’s neck and Nisao’s comment that Lan has his attractions suggest Myrelle succeeded, but Myrelle’s blushes could be taken either way. When Myrelle said “that explains” after Egwene told her that Nynaeve and Lan love each other, she might have been referring to his reluctance.

 

Myrelle had Lan’s interests at heart, but it is clear from her metaphor of Lan being a wolfhound (Lord of Chaos, Weaves of the Power) and her belief that a dying woman could choose her husband’s next wife, that however well she cares for men, she looks on the man as lesser, not capable of making his own choices. One reason is that most of her Warders had newly broken bonds and so were very mentally ill at the time she acquired them. Lan, for instance, just didn’t care what happened to him:

 

The eyes of a man who knew he was dead and could not make himself care, a man waiting, almost eager, for that long sleep.

 

-

A Crown of Swords,

Mashiara

 

This is why she made decisions about their wellbeing on their behalf. The relationship of Myrelle and Lan explores the grey area of rape and sexual harassment. Myrelle and Moiraine were trying to save Lan, and they made the change to the bond before Lan even met Nynaeve.

 

 

The reason Moiraine sent Lan to Myrelle, and not directly to Nynaeve, was that Myrelle has significant experience with recovering Warders... and yes, Lan was suffering from a snapped bond, as evidenced by the quote above.

[Mr Ares]

Moraine's bond with Lan WASN'T snapped. It was transferred to another sister - a specific sister. Moraine cast the weave that set up the transfer before she confronted Lanfear.

 

If Lan's bond with Moraine had been merely snapped, Lan would have been set free, albeit painfully.

Lan's bond did snap, with all the negative side effects that entails. Moiraine set things up so that in the event of her death the bond would transfer. That requires death, or its functional equivalent (such as stilling), something which would snap the bond. Given the effects on Lan are exactly the same as if it snapped, I'd say it snapped.

[W_A]

Rand did go into T'A'R physically when he fought Rahvin at the end of tFoH. Moghedien said so. I just don't remember if he had already been bonded by Alanna then. I think she bonded him in LoC. There is also a possibility he was in T'A'R physically when he was spying on Egwene when she was summoned to Salidar. I don't remember the scene exactly. I'll look it up.

 

 

EDIT: Okay, so he's bonded in LoC chapter 10, so the battle if tFoH doesn't matter. I think it's pretty strongly implied that when he spies on Egwene and the Aes Sedai (End of chapter 32), he is in it physically. He has to open a gateway to the reflection of the palace in Caemlyn, and in tFoH it said that he was in Caemlyn's reflection (Just realized, he also entered TAR physically when he fough Ishy in tDR, and it used similar language there too.) I think that he was in TAR physically here.

[Xader]

Perhaps it is as simple as T'A'R, the mirror worlds, etc. merely being different planes of Randland's reality, while Finnland is another reality entirely. The loss of the path from one reality to the other is what severed the bond.

 

I dunno. I was never much for metaphysics.

[Morsker]

We only know 1 of Moiraine's 3 wishes. Either of the others could've been to snap the bond as if she'd died.

[W_A]

Yeah, but it snapped right when the gate melted. It takes time to get from the entrance of the gate to the place where they grant wishes. I agree with the theory that TAR is special in not breaking bonds, and any other dimension does break it. The bond only snapped when the gate melted, and once it melted, there were no connections to Finnland at the time, because the gate at Tear probably melted at the same time and the tower genji wasn't open at the time.

[akira.taylor]

Yeah, but it snapped right when the gate melted. It takes time to get from the entrance of the gate to the place where they grant wishes. I agree with the theory that TAR is special in not breaking bonds, and any other dimension does break it. The bond only snapped when the gate melted, and once it melted, there were no connections to Finnland at the time, because the gate at Tear probably melted at the same time and the tower genji wasn't open at the time.

 

I'm really curious: why does everyone assume that the gate at Tear is destroyed? Yes, I know that the description of the gate is that it was destroyed, but Mat's luck says that was the way out. I don't remember that Mat specified that the way out had to appear open, and my immediate reaction to him getting to the gate was "well, go through it."

[RedRaider]

I know Lan's bond transfered but I still beleive that the strength he suddenly feels is Moraine emerging from Fin Land. The bond transfered but she still lived. I think she is still connected to Lan somewhat and that connection reappeared when she came back to the here and now.

[Phelix]

Rand did go into T'A'R physically when he fought Rahvin at the end of tFoH. Moghedien said so. I just don't remember if he had already been bonded by Alanna then. I think she bonded him in LoC. There is also a possibility he was in T'A'R physically when he was spying on Egwene when she was summoned to Salidar. I don't remember the scene exactly. I'll look it up.

 

 

EDIT: Okay, so he's bonded in LoC chapter 10, so the battle if tFoH doesn't matter. I think it's pretty strongly implied that when he spies on Egwene and the Aes Sedai (End of chapter 32), he is in it physically. He has to open a gateway to the reflection of the palace in Caemlyn, and in tFoH it said that he was in Caemlyn's reflection (Just realized, he also entered TAR physically when he fough Ishy in tDR, and it used similar language there too.) I think that he was in TAR physically here.

 

OK, so it seems that he does enter T'A'R in the flesh after he's been bonded by Alanna, which means T'A'R doesn't affect bonds. Thanks!

 

 

Yeah, but it snapped right when the gate melted. It takes time to get from the entrance of the gate to the place where they grant wishes. I agree with the theory that TAR is special in not breaking bonds, and any other dimension does break it. The bond only snapped when the gate melted, and once it melted, there were no connections to Finnland at the time, because the gate at Tear probably melted at the same time and the tower genji wasn't open at the time.

 

I'm really curious: why does everyone assume that the gate at Tear is destroyed? Yes, I know that the description of the gate is that it was destroyed, but Mat's luck says that was the way out. I don't remember that Mat specified that the way out had to appear open, and my immediate reaction to him getting to the gate was "well, go through it."

 

I'm not sure why anyone thinks the Tairen gate is melted either. That one should be fine, no one went through it fighting with a Forsaken. I thought the description of a destroyed gate was about the gate from Rhuiden.

 

 

I know Lan's bond transfered but I still beleive that the strength he suddenly feels is Moraine emerging from Fin Land. The bond transfered but she still lived. I think she is still connected to Lan somewhat and that connection reappeared when she came back to the here and now.

 

 

That would be contrary to what we read in the series. We know that Nynaeve took his bond, and Lan thinks to himself that it must by Nynaeve... sure, it could be Moiraine... but where is the support for that?

[Mystraka]

Yeah, but it snapped right when the gate melted. It takes time to get from the entrance of the gate to the place where they grant wishes. I agree with the theory that TAR is special in not breaking bonds, and any other dimension does break it. The bond only snapped when the gate melted, and once it melted, there were no connections to Finnland at the time, because the gate at Tear probably melted at the same time and the tower genji wasn't open at the time.

 

Time in Finland passes differently than time in Randland, Moiraine could have been in Findland a week before the gate melted in Randland. I would think its entirely possible that one of Moiraines wishes was to have the bond severed in such a way as to:

1.) Meet the criteria for the passing of the bond to Myrelle

2.) Make Lan think she is dead so that he doesn't attempt to enter the tower to save her (she knows that is Mat's destiny)

[Dakota]

T'A'R can be entered by anyone having a vivid enough dream, or by someone making a gateway directly there. There are enough ways to and from it that it's never completely separated and isolated from the real world. Heck, things happening in the real world can have their effect on T'A'R' without dreaming or gateways, for example Rand's epiphany on the Dragonmount. I don't consider T'A'R' to be an entirely seperate world as much as a shadow or mirror or reflection of the real world.

 

Finnland, however, as far as we can tell, is an entirely seperate world. There are the redstone doorways in Tear and Rhiudian, and the Tower of Ghenji. With both doorways destroyed and the Tower closed, I think that this isolated Moiraine from the real world enough to break the bond.

 

It's why, in my opinion, trips to portal worlds probably wouldn't break the bond either. The portal stone worlds all still seem to be more or less a reflection of the real world, not to mention there are many different portal stones all over the world, so that the world's 'connection' is never really severed. Still, it would be interesting to ask Brandon or someone else on Team Jordan if a trip to a portal stone world would break a warder bond.

[Phelix]

Yeah, but it snapped right when the gate melted. It takes time to get from the entrance of the gate to the place where they grant wishes. I agree with the theory that TAR is special in not breaking bonds, and any other dimension does break it. The bond only snapped when the gate melted, and once it melted, there were no connections to Finnland at the time, because the gate at Tear probably melted at the same time and the tower genji wasn't open at the time.

 

Time in Finland passes differently than time in Randland, Moiraine could have been in Findland a week before the gate melted in Randland. I would think its entirely possible that one of Moiraines wishes was to have the bond severed in such a way as to:

1.) Meet the criteria for the passing of the bond to Myrelle

2.) Make Lan think she is dead so that he doesn't attempt to enter the tower to save her (she knows that is Mat's destiny)

 

It's a possibility, but it doesn't fit what we've been told or what we've observed.