Do prayers to the Light actually work?

[archon87]

I believe that the existence of Ta'veren is the instrument of the creators influence. The good things that happen are the creators influence and the bad things that happen would be DO's counterweight to those things.

[archon87]

Another thought is that the creator wants free will to be in existence in the world if he were to influence events, then things would be pre-destined therefore getting rid of free will which is what the DO is trying to do by wiping existence out entirely.

[Erunion]

Now, Jordan was well known as a Christian (a High Church Episcopalian, I believe) which means that he personally believed in a Creator that listens to prayers and is willing to personally intervene in the world to help the world.

 

Therefore, it is logical to assume that prayers can be answered intentionally, either by the Creator or the Pattern. Whether they will be or not, and the criteria necessary for them to be answered, I do not know. But it is both possible, even probable, that some prayers will be answered. Indeed, all prayers to the light are likely answered (considering that 'No' is an answer)!

I think this conclusion is unfair. Tolkein and C. S. Lewis felt compelled to make their fictional God identical with the God they believe in, but they're extremists. It's not some cognitive limitation of religious authors, that they're unable to write anything but their religion. The authors who felt limited accepted the limit by choice. RJ's motives were different. He told us that religion informed his moral views, and that finds its way into the story, but the theology is pure fiction. If the Creator answers prayers, it would be only because RJ thought it was good storytelling, not because of his own religion.

 

Of course! I'm not saying that RJ imposed his beliefs on his world, what I'm saying is that RJ had those beliefs, and what someone believes will shape what that person writes. What I'm saying is that, according to RJ's world, it is logical to assume that either the Creator or the Wheel is able to react to events, and is likely able to hear prayers, although whether those prayers make any difference whatsoever is a completely different story!

 

I'm sorry if that's not what my post sounded like, I was responding to the people saying that prayers in the real world were useless, so they must also be useless in tWOT, which is a completely ridiculous assumption as even though you personally may not believe in the effect of prayers, Jordan, the author of WOT, believed in a God who answered prayers. So, the line of reasoning that real-world prayers are invalid therefore WOT prayers are invalid is ludicrous.

 

I am not, however, saying that Jordan put his beliefs into tWOT. Not at all. The Wheel of Time has it's own, unique cosmology that is only vaguely inspired by Judeo-Christian beliefs; Light vs. Darkness, Creator Vs. Dark One, Saviour must save world, but other than that, things are very different.

[FarShainMael]

They work as much as in the real world to religion a,b,c....x,y,z.

 

Which is to say a placebo effect. Fortunately in the WoT for the world, the Creator is real.

 

A bit OT.. I've thought before that's it a shame that when people talk about the placebo effect, they are dismissing it as something trivial and irrelevant (though I don't know whether Entreri is doing that). To me, the placebo effect, and its converse the nocebo effect, are things that demand serious research into mind/body interaction. The main difficulty appears to be the medical ethics of carrying out such research.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

i would think that prayers in randland work as well as prayers in the real world.

 

did i mention that im atheist?

Your sig says otherwise - it labels you as a Christian; or at least someone of an Abrahamic faith, or possibly Islam.

[mikael]

i would think that prayers in randland work as well as prayers in the real world.

 

did i mention that im atheist?

Your sig says otherwise - it labels you as a Christian; or at least someone of an Abrahamic faith, or possibly Islam.

 

That makes total sense, his name is more important than whatever opinion he express.

[Blackhoof]

i would think that prayers in randland work as well as prayers in the real world.

 

did i mention that im atheist?

Your sig says otherwise - it labels you as a Christian; or at least someone of an Abrahamic faith, or possibly Islam.

 

oh please, a christian with a pentagramic signature? pentagram being the symbol of satanism and devil-worship?

 

im a pseudo-satanist. my faith is something i dont take very seriously, so i often assume the mantle of an evil devil-worshipping Satanist whenever i like to feel evil or dramatic. Also i am partly a Laveyan Satanist, which is a metaphor-driven atheist religion focusing on self-fulfillement and embracing your insticts and natural desires. The 'satanist' in it comes from 'satan' being the great adversary in christianity and that is what Anton Lavey preached- embrace your inner, carnal desires and dont let anyone, be it "holy book" or an invisible, silent deity tell you to 'avoid unmarried sex' or 'act like everyone else'.

 

maybe it is just my teenage angst winning over my reason, but we are all entitled to our immaturities, aren't we?

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

i would think that prayers in randland work as well as prayers in the real world.

 

did i mention that im atheist?

Your sig says otherwise - it labels you as a Christian; or at least someone of an Abrahamic faith, or possibly Islam.

 

oh please, a christian with a pentagramic signature? pentagram being the symbol of satanism and devil-worship?

Satan is a christian figure (or 'Abrahamic' if you will; the personification also appears in Islamic faith); hence anyone that worships Satan is a type of Christian - or at least Abrahamic.

 

It's a bit like Star Wars. They can side with Luke or Vader but they'll still be SW fans.

[Erunion]

Hmm... I've never heard it being preached that Christians should 'act like everyone else'. Indeed, they are supposed to act differently than other people; "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (Rom 12:2, NIV).

 

Anyhow, back on topic.

 

Are there any reasons that prayers to the light cannot work, or does my statement still hold, that prayers to the light can work, but do not necessarily work.

[Callern]

Erunion, there is no hard evidence that prayers should not work. Yet.

 

So I've got a little question, the Creator always puzzled me. Might the Creator be just as restricted as the DO? Could it be something like the link between Rand and Moridin?

The fact that the Creator talks to Rand in the EotW, makes it logical to think that he cares for the World.

The Creator would surely strike down anything opposing his creation and values (the Wheel), if he could.

And if he cares, why would he not strike? Because he can not.

 

It's just an idle thought, and this would suggest that the creator has more or less the same degree of ability to touch the world as the DO. And therefore, prayers could be answered.

 

Please tell me something that makes more sense tho, I don't really like the thought.

[Erunion]

Interesting. It's possible that the Wheel that the Creator Created keeps both the Dark One and the Creator out - a non-selective shield.

Of course, were that true, the Creator would be able to touch the world through the hole in the Dark One's prison.

I think it most likely that the Creator does not (or if he did, does rarely) intervene as the Wheel is sufficient for the task at hand.

It's all very, very interesting though. Is the Dark One equal to the Creator (which fits well with the yin/yang duality of the WOTverse)? Is he a lesser being than the Creator, powerful yet subsidiary? If the Dark One is equal to the creator, will we see the kind of balance that you have in Sanderson's Mistborn series, where

Ruin and Preservation are balanced and keep each other from touching the world, but each has a long game to overthrow and destroy the other?

 

Lot's of interesting possibilities, and the answer could really affect the end of AMOL.

[Callern]

Interesting. It's possible that the Wheel that the Creator Created keeps both the Dark One and the Creator out - a non-selective shield.

Of course, were that true, the Creator would be able to touch the world through the hole in the Dark One's prison.

I think it most likely that the Creator does not (or if he did, does rarely) intervene as the Wheel is sufficient for the task at hand.

It's all very, very interesting though. Is the Dark One equal to the Creator (which fits well with the yin/yang duality of the WOTverse)? Is he a lesser being than the Creator, powerful yet subsidiary? If the Dark One is equal to the creator, will we see the kind of balance that you have in Sanderson's Mistborn series, where

Ruin and Preservation are balanced and keep each other from touching the world, but each has a long game to overthrow and destroy the other?

 

Lot's of interesting possibilities, and the answer could really affect the end of AMOL.

 

But if the Wheel is doing the job by itself, the Wheel is good by nature. Is it?

I guess we will wait and see, as with so many other things. Hoping it's not too many offscreen solutions. But if there's one thing I'd really like to have answered, it is the philosophy in WoT.

[yoshinobu]

Interesting. It's possible that the Wheel that the Creator Created keeps both the Dark One and the Creator out - a non-selective shield.

Of course, were that true, the Creator would be able to touch the world through the hole in the Dark One's prison.

I think it most likely that the Creator does not (or if he did, does rarely) intervene as the Wheel is sufficient for the task at hand.

It's all very, very interesting though. Is the Dark One equal to the Creator (which fits well with the yin/yang duality of the WOTverse)? Is he a lesser being than the Creator, powerful yet subsidiary? If the Dark One is equal to the creator, will we see the kind of balance that you have in Sanderson's Mistborn series, where

Ruin and Preservation are balanced and keep each other from touching the world, but each has a long game to overthrow and destroy the other?

 

Lot's of interesting possibilities, and the answer could really affect the end of AMOL.

 

But if the Wheel is doing the job by itself, the Wheel is good by nature. Is it?

I guess we will wait and see, as with so many other things. Hoping it's not too many offscreen solutions. But if there's one thing I'd really like to have answered, it is the philosophy in WoT.

I don't think you could call the Wheel good by nature, but rather self perservating by nature. It wants to last as long as possable. You could argue that it amounts to the same thing but then both God and the Devil, are in the details. Just my opinion but thats what I gathered from reading the books. Also i think that the Wheel/pattern are like a shield preventing the universe ending confrentation between Creater and Dark One. Also i am sorry for any and all misspellings

[Callern]

 

I don't think you could call the Wheel good by nature, but rather self perservating by nature. It wants to last as long as possable. You could argue that it amounts to the same thing but then both God and the Devil, are in the details. Just my opinion but thats what I gathered from reading the books. Also i think that the Wheel/pattern are like a shield preventing the universe ending confrentation between Creater and Dark One. Also i am sorry for any and all misspellings

 

I won't argue, as it is a logical solution.

However, I'm just sayin', at the time the Creator made the Wheel, the Wheel did not have to preserve itself from anything, as the DO was imprisoned.

Another point is that if the Wheel is self-preserving, then it is not neutral, as it preserves itself from Darkness, and not Goodness. If the Creator made the Wheel with a self-preservation ability against evil, why doesn't the Wheel kill Darkfriends for instance? The Creator didn't bother to add that little addition?

Too many questions And yes, same thing, sorry for any misspellings.

[jemron]

I love the idea that the DO's prison keeps the Creator out/away from "touching this world" as much as it does the DO. That would also explain nicely why the DO has never yet won his battle. Not once. Remember, if the DO wins just once, in any reality, he wins in all, right? Unless...

 

Unless the Creator is also freed at the same time, and then able to put the DO (and himself, presumably) back into a "perfectly sealed" prison again. Maybe that is why that "ancient symbol" the yin/yang is so important to the series. You just can't have one without the other, ever. And neither of them will allow the other to completely rule/reign; so this leads to them constantly being let out, and being put back into their prison.

 

Maybe the Creator was able to talk to Rand at the Eye because he and the DO both were actually close to getting free. I've always gotten the impression from the ending of tEotW that the DO was just moments from being free until Rand... did something with the Eye (it's always been a bit vague to me exactly what he did, but didn't he channel "The Light"?). The Trollocs and the Blight literally "backed up" as if the DO's influence was suddenly and dramatically diminished. Maybe that same thing happened to the Creator. He was out enough to communicate with Rand, but didn't yet have enough power to do much more than help Rand with the Eye (or use the Eye himself to re-seal/strengthen the prison)... and then he and the DO both were re-trapped enough for Rand to get in gear and become the DR before the real LB.

 

Cool. I'm sticking to this theory until we have more info about the Creator/DO relationship, which I hope will be a big part of the end.

[Erunion]

@Jemron

 

Yeah, that duality is a very, very cool thought. I like where you're going with my random idea!

In all honesty though, the pattern being a non-selective Deity shield makes the most sense for the series, as this series is all about balance. The Third Age, which we're reading about, has the world very, very imbalanced. All of Rand's greatest actions have been to bring balance - cleansing the source, anyone?

Perhaps their is a sense of spatial orientation - the bore is 'closer' to the Dark One than it is to the Creator, so that the Dark One is able to affect the world more than the Creator is (even though we do so some strange happenings that could be put down to the Creator's influence), therefore if Rand seals the bore, he'll bring balance.

 

Crazy, random thought - what if Rand bores another bore, closer to the creator, then seals both? (Note: Having written that last thought, it now seems less intelligent than it did in my head. Not a likely outcome)

[Blackhoof]

Interesting. It's possible that the Wheel that the Creator Created keeps both the Dark One and the Creator out - a non-selective shield.

Of course, were that true, the Creator would be able to touch the world through the hole in the Dark One's prison.

I think it most likely that the Creator does not (or if he did, does rarely) intervene as the Wheel is sufficient for the task at hand.

It's all very, very interesting though. Is the Dark One equal to the Creator (which fits well with the yin/yang duality of the WOTverse)? Is he a lesser being than the Creator, powerful yet subsidiary? If the Dark One is equal to the creator, will we see the kind of balance that you have in Sanderson's Mistborn series, where

Ruin and Preservation are balanced and keep each other from touching the world, but each has a long game to overthrow and destroy the other?

 

Lot's of interesting possibilities, and the answer could really affect the end of AMOL.

 

 

I've always felt that the idea of Ruin being the opposite of Preservation odd. Wouldn't Creation bve the opposite of destruction? with a neutral 'preserver'? I suppose you could take it either way, but i'm just saying.

 

 

@MichaeloftheWhite, you have a fairly good point, but satanists (i do not believe in the devil, for the record) do not worship god, they only believe in him as a 'prime mover' or somesuch. Just because you believe in dsomething, doesn't mean that you worship it. Christians that believe in the Devil, but hate him, for instance.

 

The type of satanism that i'm into (Laveyan Satanism) is complicated. ClickHERE

[Erunion]

On Mistborn:

Ruin is the opposite of Preservation in much the same way as chaos is the opposite of order. However, in Sanderson's Metaverse (fun fact - Way of Kings, Elantris, Warbreaker and Mistborn are all in the same Universe, just different planets) they don't have to be paired opposites. Rather, they are simply two equally powerful beings with goals that are contrary to one another.

To give you a bit of background, sometime long, long ago, a being known as Adonalsium shattered into shards (16, most likely). A sentient, human-like being known as Ati absorbed the shard of "Ruin", while his buddy Leras absorbed the shard of "Preservation". They decided to use their God-like powers to build a world, which they did. Unfortunately for them, the Shards they had absorbed changed their personalaties, until they were no longer Ati and Leras, they had become Ruin and Preservation. At this point, each realized that their goals were exactly opposite the other, Ruin simply wanted to break things down, while Preservation wanted things to remain as they were. Both laid a long-term strategy to overthrow the other. Ruin nearly won, but Preservation's plan, though very risky, was ultimately successful. Sorta, as neither got what they wanted. Ruin didn't destroy the world, and Preservation didn't get it as his own little stasis-box, rather Sazed took over both of their powers and rebuilt the world 'as it should have been'.

 

[Blackhoof]

fair point.

[Callern]

 

In all honesty though, the pattern being a non-selective Deity shield makes the most sense for the series, as this series is all about balance.

 

But this isn't balance. If the Wheel where to have a shield, survivability of some sort, then the Wheel is either good, or evil. It won't be non-selective unless it worked deliberately against the Light, as well as the Dark.

Which I can't recall seeing it does? I might be wrong tho.

 

Let's say for instance, that the DO would win the LB, he would remake the Wheel according to his views and wishes. Suddenly, the sides switches, it's a game changer. As the DO recreate the Wheel, there is suddenly a new moment of Creation.

 

"There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

 

The former DO is now the Creator, and naturally, the former Creator would be the new DO. Evil would suddenly be a good thing, and it might actually be a good thing, it's just against general accepted human ethics.

This implies that the Wheel in itself is the great struggle between the Light and the Dark, and Randland is just the playground.

And as the two opposite forces switch sides again (Light(new Creator, after the LB) and Dark(new DO, after the LB)), there is a new beginning.

This, is balance and non-selectiveness. This way we can not say whether good is good, or evil (and the other way around). White isn't superior over black anymore(in belief), they are simply two opposing forces.

In some ways, this would mean that the Wheel actually is the balance in itself. And T'A'R might be a counterweight to it (to balance the balance).

 

It's is beyond doubt a far fetched idea, I wouldn't even call it a theory, but it could be possible nonetheless. Unless I'm missing something big.

Don't get me wrong tho, I do not actually believe this, it's merely an attempt to illustrate ultimate balance.

 

Edit; Added some stuff.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

 

@MichaeloftheWhite, you have a fairly good point, but satanists (i do not believe in the devil, for the record) do not worship god, they only believe in him as a 'prime mover' or somesuch. Just because you believe in dsomething, doesn't mean that you worship it. Christians that believe in the Devil, but hate him, for instance.

 

The type of satanism that i'm into (Laveyan Satanism) is complicated. ClickHERE

I know who laVey is, I've read his book. It struck me that his dislike of a christian god was probably caused by a need for his human traits (sexuality, individuality) to be celebrated in the circus' strict culture wherein he was raised. I realised that, whether he believed in, worhsipped or even sold his sooul to either God or the Devil, he existed within a christian paradigm of his own construction; and one way for him to find the peace and freedom he sought might be to just remove himself from that paradigm. Or move country, for example, to where people didn't mind if you liked rough sex with leather-clad bearded ladies or frottage with a nearby elephant's trunk.

The difficulty with self-imposed paradigms of belief is that they are self-perpeutating. You cannot find a key to unlock the box you're in whilst you're still inside said box. The box might be quite dark until you throw a light-switch. Then it's lighter. You might prefer the darkness or the light, but you remain inside the box.

 

This is how I see this debate on the nature of the wheel and the DO. It's a self-contained system of perfectly balaned dark and light; where people have sprung a leak in the pattern allowing darkness the chance to erase it. The existence of portal and mirror worlds show that there are other wheels and patterns; we just don't care about them, because one of them is probably our own and ours isn't as fun as randland... but the same rules and debates apply - because the WoT was written by a man that existed in a christian paradigm. :)

[Morsker]

I've seen this quote on these forums several times before, but I can't find where it comes from:

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

That kind of Creator isn't anyone's idea of God. He may be very good, but he's not all-good; he's either vain or narrow-minded or otherwise limited to this concept of "perfect creation". And he's obviously not all-powerful either, if the Dark One is his counterpart. So this Creator has never answered prayers. A theologian could make an argument that he can't answer prayers without creating a contradiction, depending on how seriously he takes the concept of "perfect creation".

 

Obviously this isn't the kind of deity anyone wants in a real religion, but it fits the setting quite well, no?

[omer681]

Perhaps the Creator is the Dark One's prison?

[Tud]

Interesting topic.

 

I'm not a theologian, but I think y'all are missing an essential element to Christianity (And almost every religion I've ever studied) that informs RJ's approach to The Creator: Free Will. God, in his infinite wisdom, understands that a choice imposed is not a choice at all. Faith, absent a freely made choice to believe, isn't faith. We are not robots. A decision implies free will. The problem with having free will is the fact that "you" have to make the choice.God isn't going to step in amd make it for you. You make a choice to pray for help, God doesn't impel you to do so. Faith is making a free choice to believe without fully undertanding the plan. You can believe or not, it is your choice.."Take what you want and pay for it."

 

 

In the WOT, if everyone had no choice but to do what The Creator wanted then the Dark One wouldn't be able to affect anything at all. Instead The Creator would control everything and we would be nothing more than slaves. The problem with that, of course, is that unlike The Dark One, The Creator is clearly a beneficial force. Why else would He (or maybe She)allow hummanity "free will" to make the decsion to follow Him? Buttressing this conclusion is what we know of both entities' behavior. The Creator has never once, in the entire series, acted to destroy anything (Including The Dark One himself), whereas The Dark One's stated desire is to destroy the Age Lace and everything asscoiated with it. Also, The Creator, unlike The Dark One, is always willing to take you back..no matter how evil you've become. You simply have to make the choice (As Intgar did), to eschew your allegiance to The Dark One and return to the light. Also, you can fail as a follower of the Creator and not suffer His wrath, whereas with the Dark One, you cannot.

 

In essence The Creator so values freely given faith that he gives hummanity the free will necessary to make that choice. Unfortunately, the necessary side effect of that freedom is that free will also makes it possible for the Dark One to exist. Additionally, the existance of free will makes it difficult for The Creator to take a direct hand in the day to day activities of mankind. His answer to prayers has to be circumscribed. On the other hand, The Dark One dosn't need nor want his followers to have the same freedom to choose.To him, it would threaten his hold on power. Accordingly, because he doesn't value free will, he can act directly under no constraints whatsoever.

 

Essentially, if The Creator doesn't seem to answer a prayer it is because he is constrained from doing so directly by His self imposed limitation.Anything else would be to abrogate mankind's free will. If The Dark One doesn't answer, it's because he doesn't want to..

 

On a side topic, I've always felt that the main weakness in the entire WOT concept (and indeed in most Fantasy ) is the fact that the Dark One, etc shows no mercy to his followers who fail. You screw up an assignment and you're consigned to the firy pits. There's never an allowance for you to just not be successful.The problem I have with that scenario is where's the incentive to join up? I mean, sure, you might get infinite power, if you succeed, but you can get plenty of power, etc if you work for the other side and you don't get roasted if you screw up.Heck, you can even turn traitor and still, the other side will take you back. Try that working for the Dark One..So, again, where's the incentive?

 

I think it would work better if both sides were equally understanding of their followers. Of course, in that case, it wouldn't be a case of Good versus Evil anymore. Rather, it would be a case of a celestial version of a football game..Like say, anyone playing the Cowboys..Wait, that doesn't work. The Cowboys are evil personified. Okay, how about anyone playing The Steelers? Ahhh, nope, that doesn't work either. Same problem..Okay, how about anyone playing my beloved (if pathetic) Redskins? That wouldn't be evil..Just sad..sigh..*G*

 

tud

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

Interesting topic.

 

I'm not a theologian, but I think y'all are missing an essential element to Christianity (And almost every religion I've ever studied) that informs RJ's approach to The Creator: Free Will. God, in his infinite wisdom, understands that a choice imposed is not a choice at all.

1. Explore the average human's illusion of 'free choice' through the perspective of an omniscient god (where 'omniscient' here means equal, persistent and incipient understanding or knowledge of the past, present and future).

10 marks.

 

2. Describe how your answer to 1 invalidates the rest of your previous post.

As many marks as you like