is Taim Moridin?

[OptimusPrime]

Ahhh, whoever Taim is or isnt, the guy gets my seal of approval. He has created such a strong reaction from the Fandom, an enigma that keeps people interested in the WoT.

 

Couldnt agree more. The guy is a freakin legend whether he is Moridin or not, an incredibly well-written character, does exactly what he is supposed to; generate interest.

 

One day soon I will do a reread to try and disprove myself, but honestly I dont think I will succeed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahhh, whoever Taim is or isnt, the guy gets my seal of approval. He has created such a strong reaction from the Fandom, an enigma that keeps people interested in the WoT.

 

Couldnt agree more. The guy is a freakin legend whether he is Moridin or not, an incredibly well-written character, does exactly what he is supposed to; generate interest.

 

Yeah. Depending on the events in AMOL Taim could become my favorite Shadow man. Even more so than Demandred.

[OptimusPrime]

Ahhh, whoever Taim is or isnt, the guy gets my seal of approval. He has created such a strong reaction from the Fandom, an enigma that keeps people interested in the WoT.

 

Couldnt agree more. The guy is a freakin legend whether he is Moridin or not, an incredibly well-written character, does exactly what he is supposed to; generate interest.

 

Yeah. Depending on the events in AMOL Taim could become my favorite Shadow man. Even more so than Demandred.

 

For a while before I thought of Mazridin they were both my favotite characters, Taim and Moridin. Moridin was always the top one because of his reasons for turning and his attitude towards the Dragon, the epic rivalry, and his nihilism and True Power exclusiveness at the time.

 

Moridin: This between the Dragon and me, its just business, not personal. Hey Graendal. Go cause that lad some emotional pain!

 

And there is no contradiction there because causing Rand emotional pain can weaken the Pattern.

[Suttree]

Come on man, dont discard it based simply on that. You can think of better reasons why Taim isnt Moridin, I am sure of it.

 

Sorry Drekka but there have been better reasons mentioned throughout this thread numerous times. All of those, combined with BS latest comments, come fairly close to wrapping this one up for me.

[OptimusPrime]

Come on man, dont discard it based simply on that. You can think of better reasons why Taim isnt Moridin, I am sure of it.

 

Sorry Drekka but there have been better reasons mentioned throughout this thread numerous times. All of those, combined with BS latest comments, come fairly close to wrapping this one up for me.

 

Thats cool, I can appreciate it. Clearly this will not be concluded by anything but AMoL itself. I just hope those that oppose the theory can appreciate my stance as well; I do not defend it simply because I came up with it, but because I cannot see anything that disproves it, just as those on the opposite side of the fence are not "convinced" by what me and herid consider evidence for it.

 

Time will tell as it always does.

[capuga]

As to why the contradicting orders and the irrelevence, fair enough, I shouldnt have just said it on its own and waited. But I have explained that, you cannot write this off simply because of an incosistency-if you would call it that-because these characters are depicted as real people. People say things, plans change.

 

Yes, plans change. But both of those orders are recently given to Kisman after the failed attempt to kill Rand. So its not a matter of Moridin changing his mind after certain events have occured. He gives these orders to Kisman at the same time. Its hard for me to see how this can be dismissed. Taim clearly just wants Rand dead. Moridin clearly wants the CK. The orders are similar but they are different. And issuing different orders runs the risk of you missing out on whatever is it you really want. And there is absolutely no reason for it. Moridin is top dog. Just issue the orders you want. He obviously doesn't have to work through a Taim persona since he gives the Asha'man orders himself. It makes absolutely no sense to complicate matters with different orders.

 

And to reiterate on Brandons comment, if you are so willing to disregard the evidence that not only I, but herid, has provided-herids method being FAR more proffessional than my own, which I take my hat off to him for-based entirely on an answer that could have been different, then I honestly wouldnt like to read anything at all with your way of thinking.

 

I've read Herid's original post awhile ago and I remember his conclusion being that the evidence suggested the Taim was not Moridin. Perhaps he has changed his mind. Regardless, you and I have been having this debate for months. Perhaps I'm less memorable then you since you're one of the lone voices supporting this theory and I'm just one in a crowd (based on the poll in this thread) but I've previously written pages of evidence contridicting Taim=Moridin. Bottom line. One reasonable easy to swallow assumption (Taim is Moridin's pupil) explains every bit of evidence that Taim is Moridin. But there is no reasonable, non-convoluted way to explain away the evidence against the theory.

 

If Brandon had said RAFO, that implies that certain things are due to appear in future books. Now, it is clear at least to me that everything Brandon has said so far to us has been under strict rules of disclosure. If-IF!!!!-Taim is Moridin, and Brandon was presented with this question-bearing in mind that this would be THE secret, the one that got away from us all for so long, then how could he possibly RAFO it? You miss what RAFO means. Read and find out isnt simply a wait and see what happens analogy, it is THIS WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU LATER. Brandon will be capable of RAFOing lots of stuff, but this I imagine, if true, would be a specific REVEAL NOTHING AT ALL subject.

 

Actually, RAFO is used for a number of purposes. It means that something might be revealed in the future. It could mean that he doesn't want to squash theories like Taim=Moridin before the reveal in the books. Its an answer that has been used for a number of reasons. And I still believe that the fact that Brandon does not give a RAFO here regarding Taim is evidence that there is no mystery. That Taim is Taim.

 

Come on man, dont discard it based simply on that. You can think of better reasons why Taim isnt Moridin, I am sure of it.

 

And I have, at length, in various threads. Along with Mr Ares I have been one of the most vocal opponents of this theory on the boards. But I haven't posted in awhile because there was nothing new to say. I only popped in now because I felt the Brandon quote was a little nugget of new evidence.

[Suttree]

Come on man, dont discard it based simply on that. You can think of better reasons why Taim isnt Moridin, I am sure of it.

 

Sorry Drekka but there have been better reasons mentioned throughout this thread numerous times. All of those, combined with BS latest comments, come fairly close to wrapping this one up for me.

 

Thats cool, I can appreciate it. Clearly this will not be concluded by anything but AMoL itself. I just hope those that oppose the theory can appreciate my stance as well; I do not defend it simply because I came up with it, but because I cannot see anything that disproves it, just as those on the opposite side of the fence are not "convinced" by what me and herid consider evidence for it.

 

Time will tell as it always does.

 

Dude, even though I don't agree, I've been seriously impressed by your persistence on this one. Will be fun to see how it plays out.

 

Bottom line. One reasonable easy to swallow assumption (Taim is Moridin's pupil) explains every bit of evidence that Taim is Moridin. But there is no reasonable, non-convoluted way to explain away the evidence against the theory.

 

This. Great call Mark...easy and straight to the point.

[capuga]

Here's a point I have been thinking on that I don't think I have previously brought up:

 

What would Taim have expected to happen when he joined up with Rand? We see when he first goes to the farm with Rand that he doesn't expect any men to have answered the amnesty. And he doesn't expect any of the men who do show up to actually be able to channel. So he has no reason to believe that he's going to be part of an organization like the Black Tower. Certainly no reason to think that he would be put in charge of it. As an imfamous False Dragon, he's much more likely to be mistrusted and watched over closely.

 

So the most likely result of showing up and presenting himself to Rand is that Rand will keep him around and under his watchful eye. Does he want to gain Rand's trust so that he can strike at an opportune time? Does he want to spy of Rand for the Shadow? Is he hoping to use this position near Rand as a way to power (which I think is most likely)? I don't know. But it seems to me that what he was expecting was to gain a position where he would be around Rand all the time. I have to believe in his mind he realizes its much more likely that he will be around Rand constantly.

 

If Taim was Moridin, it would not make sense for him to approach Rand like this when the most likely result is that he will be tethered to Rand all the time. Doesn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties. Of couse, running the Black Tower as Taim wouldn't leave much time for Nae'blis duties either. One of the many strikes against the theory. Yet, the most likely result of Taim answering Rand's amnesty is being around him and under his eye at all times. Its nothing but a stroke of luck that Rand leaves him alone to run the Black Tower and gain more power than he could have hoped for when he originally showed up.

[yoniy0]

I just thought of something (new, I think). Kisman's orders make it clear that - if Taim is Moridin - his favorites in the BT don't know about it. Well, that makes it very unlikely that he can use TP in their presence. I mean, they do on occasion talk with other FS. If he pretended just to be someone entrusted with the use of TP in this Age, another FS would find that very odd indeed considering it's now been restricted to Moridin's use alone (before that whole Graendal thing). So... we're left with his using saidin, and I think that takes away the most likely explanation regarding the 'link-based-counter-evidence'.

 

Ahhh, whoever Taim is or isnt, the guy gets my seal of approval. He has created such a strong reaction from the Fandom, an enigma that keeps people interested in the WoT.

Couldnt agree more. The guy is a freakin legend whether he is Moridin or not, an incredibly well-written character, does exactly what he is supposed to; generate interest.

I agree completely that his plot-line is very well written, but how can you say that his character is? We know absolutely nothing of his motivations, desires, thoughts. He's pretty much two-dimensional still, after all that time. We speculate about him, but that's not the same as character development.

[herid]

Here's a point I have been thinking on that I don't think I have previously brought up:

 

What would Taim have expected to happen when he joined up with Rand? We see when he first goes to the farm with Rand that he doesn't expect any men to have answered the amnesty. And he doesn't expect any of the men who do show up to actually be able to channel. So he has no reason to believe that he's going to be part of an organization like the Black Tower. Certainly no reason to think that he would be put in charge of it. As an imfamous False Dragon, he's much more likely to be mistrusted and watched over closely.

 

So the most likely result of showing up and presenting himself to Rand is that Rand will keep him around and under his watchful eye. Does he want to gain Rand's trust so that he can strike at an opportune time? Does he want to spy of Rand for the Shadow? Is he hoping to use this position near Rand as a way to power (which I think is most likely)? I don't know. But it seems to me that what he was expecting was to gain a position where he would be around Rand all the time. I have to believe in his mind he realizes its much more likely that he will be around Rand constantly.

 

 

Taim makes it quite clear when he shows up that he wants to be Rand's advisor/teacher. Yes, he wants to be close to Rand and guide him. That makes perfect sense. Rand just lost his teacher Asmodean. he is alone against both the Forsaken and Aes Sedai who he thinks might try to control him or gentle him or both. He just announced an amnesty for channelers which Taim knows about when he shows up. He would hardly expect to be put under guard in this situation. Being a false dragon is a perfect excuse (in fact, the only good excuse) for being an experienced channeler and ask to become Rand's teacher. Rand would certainly be suspicious of anybody else who showed up with similar skills. He warns Taim to watch for Forsaken hiding among the students. This is actually just about the only thing the we ever see that shakes Taim up.

Asking to be Rand's advisor agrees with Ishy's MO too. He did the same thing with Arthur Hawkwing.

 

Lastly, Moridin is not made naeb'lis right away. When he is spying on Sammael and Graendal in CoS he is not naeb'lis yet as is clear from his thoughts.

 

I just thought of something (new, I think). Kisman's orders make it clear that - if Taim is Moridin - his favorites in the BT don't know about it. Well, that makes it very unlikely that he can use TP in their presence. I mean, they do on occasion talk with other FS. If he pretended just to be someone entrusted with the use of TP in this Age, another FS would find that very odd indeed considering it's now been restricted to Moridin's use alone (before that whole Graendal thing). So... we're left with his using saidin, and I think that takes away the most likely explanation regarding the 'link-based-counter-evidence'.

A good point. Taim might not have told them that he could use TP from the beginning (if he ever did at all).

[yoniy0]

Taim might not have told them that he could use TP from the beginning.

So you say Taim managed not to channel in their presence between the end of ACoS and WH?

[herid]

Taim might not have told them that he could use TP from the beginning.

So you say Taim managed not to channel in their presence between the end of ACoS and WH?

I assume you are referring to Demandred's remark in WH Ch 13 that Moridin must have channeled only TP since their last meeting.

Demandred was referring to a fairly short time period. Moridin was first revealed as Nae'blis some time in tPoD. The scene in question is for a Forsaken gathering from early in WH. Also, Demandred likely saw Moridin several times in between. In the same scene Moridin mentions that Mesaana is absent again. This indicates that several such meetings took place.

Also, Demandred clearly expresses his opinion. If Taim/Moridin had to channel saidin a few times in that time period I don't see how that would make any difference on the amount of saa in Moridin's eyes.

[Byzantine279]

Well, the real problem in the theory is that when either channeled saidin before VoG it seemed to effect the other, or at least that is how the face rand saw made it seem. So it seems that Moridin is not channeling Saidin to avoid the sickness, and we have never seen it where he initiated it on Rand so...

[OptimusPrime]

Ok Im working on a post to reply to some things, but until I finish that... I do not believe Mazridin becomes sick when HE channels saidin. If he gets sick I would say its when he channels the True Power. The sickness I think is instigated when one channels the same Power they formed their side of the connection with, not unlike some things I believe Luckers had said before. So Mazridin can channel saidin and be fine because he didnt use that in the balefire crossing.

 

For the record I believe the Mazridin disguise itself can be tied off, as in it doesnt require to be constantly channeled. Use the weave to change your face, use it again to change it back, the time between requires no channeling of the True Power in my oppinion, which is why he could channel saidin while disguised. The fact that he had the sa'a early is partially but not wholely down to changing faces all the time, just like Rands dark aura was partly but not wholely due to channel the True Power once.

[Red2111]

mb, your link's broken. And it's not very clear what you intended to say. But yeah, I meant the discussion of Taim's identity to be conducted here, at least where it doesn't focus on certain niches - such as the (im)possibility that Taim is actually Asmodean (people on that thread seem content with discussion Asmodean rather than Taim, which is why I didn't close it as well).

 

okay, i haven't chekced out the asmo thread; but why is it impossible for Taim to be Asmo?? Asmon wasn't BF, and was killed before Taim re-appeared. so logically he could poassibly be Asmo. i'm not one to agree with this, as the attitudes of the two see totally opposite.

 

 

 

Yeah. Depending on the events in AMOL Taim could become my favorite Shadow man. Even more so than Demandred.

 

bah!! Fain is the best by far!!!

 

 

Ok Im working on a post to reply to some things, but until I finish that... I do not believe Mazridin becomes sick when HE channels saidin. If he gets sick I would say its when he channels the True Power. The sickness I think is instigated when one channels the same Power they formed their side of the connection with, not unlike some things I believe Luckers had said before. So Mazridin can channel saidin and be fine because he didnt use that in the balefire crossing.

 

For the record I believe the Mazridin disguise itself can be tied off, as in it doesnt require to be constantly channeled. Use the weave to change your face, use it again to change it back, the time between requires no channeling of the True Power in my oppinion, which is why he could channel saidin while disguised. The fact that he had the sa'a early is partially but not wholely down to changing faces all the time, just like Rands dark aura was partly but not wholely due to channel the True Power once.

 

2 things. even if it was an inverted, tied off MoM (or one made with the TP) wouldn't the Saa still show in his eyes??

 

 

another is i disagree with Rands Dark Aura being only partly due to Rand channeling the TP. me, i think that Darth Rand as well as the Darkness Min saw around him was fully caused by Rand channeling the TP; because it's a power linked directly with the DO and therefor allows him to be more easily coorupted (hence the blackness of both his mood, thoughts & the black aura)

[OptimusPrime]

 

Ok Im working on a post to reply to some things, but until I finish that... I do not believe Mazridin becomes sick when HE channels saidin. If he gets sick I would say its when he channels the True Power. The sickness I think is instigated when one channels the same Power they formed their side of the connection with, not unlike some things I believe Luckers had said before. So Mazridin can channel saidin and be fine because he didnt use that in the balefire crossing.

 

For the record I believe the Mazridin disguise itself can be tied off, as in it doesnt require to be constantly channeled. Use the weave to change your face, use it again to change it back, the time between requires no channeling of the True Power in my oppinion, which is why he could channel saidin while disguised. The fact that he had the sa'a early is partially but not wholely down to changing faces all the time, just like Rands dark aura was partly but not wholely due to channel the True Power once.

 

2 things. even if it was an inverted, tied off MoM (or one made with the TP) wouldn't the Saa still show in his eyes??

 

Not any more than the real nose would show through, or the real mouth. Part of the disguise is to have tilted eyes that dont have sa'a. The real part that shows the sa'a is hidden by a disguise.

 

another is i disagree with Rands Dark Aura being only partly due to Rand channeling the TP. me, i think that Darth Rand as well as the Darkness Min saw around him was fully caused by Rand channeling the TP; because it's a power linked directly with the DO and therefor allows him to be more easily coorupted (hence the blackness of both his mood, thoughts & the black aura)

 

The way I think about this is that Rand had the potential for dark auras all along, its his mental state that did it. If for example he turned his back on everything like he did in TGS he would have had dark auras because his will was affecting the Pattern negatively only. His will affects the Pattern, his "good" qualities had been subdued by the True Power use, yes, but he still could have gotten that far without it, it just would have taken a lot more to drive him to that point.

 

Brandon himself stated that it was only partially because of the True Power use, Im trying to find the quote.

[Byzantine279]

I believe it was stated by RJ that the saa cannot be hidden, though I do not know where that quote is.

[yoniy0]

So you say Taim managed not to channel in their presence between the end of ACoS and WH?

I assume you are referring to Demandred's remark in WH Ch 13 that Moridin must have channeled only TP since their last meeting.

Not at all. I'm thinking about the renegade AM and how they've seen Taim for some time after the crossing of the BF streams. If Taim experienced the same sickness Rand did, the easiest way to deal with that would be to use the TP in front of his followers and have them know that he can (because he's such a big shot). But Kisman does talk with Demandred now and again. And Demandred would've picked up on Taim's channeling the TP as a sign of something strange. So we know Taim doesn't make his channeling of the TP publicly known (if he even can, but that's a good bet, I think). Makes it harder to consider Taim to be Moridin.

 

If [Mazridin] gets sick I would say its when he channels the True Power.

I don't know about Mazridin, but Moridin doesn't. We've seen him do it several times since TPoD, and he never experienced anything like what Rand does.

 

I believe it was stated by RJ that the saa cannot be hidden, though I do not know where that quote is.

I'd love to read it, if you can find the quote. I didn't know of it.

[Red2111]

Not any more than the real nose would show through, or the real mouth. Part of the disguise is to have tilted eyes that dont have sa'a. The real part that shows the sa'a is hidden by a disguise.

 

but the eyes are more complexe than a nose or mouth. you have to deal with pupil dilation and retinas and also focusing as well as the eye movement itself; not to mention reflection of light on the iris. plus the way the Saa is described, it floats freely within the eyes itself over botht he whites and the pupils.

 

out of all the people who have used the MoM, have any been able to change their eye color that we know of? even making the eyes tilted woudn't effect the Saa or the ability to see it; as its all part of the interior of the eye (which as far as i know, isn't effected by a MoM.

 

 

The way I think about this is that Rand had the potential for dark auras all along, its his mental state that did it. If for example he turned his back on everything like he did in TGS he would have had dark auras because his will was affecting the Pattern negatively only. His will affects the Pattern, his "good" qualities had been subdued by the True Power use, yes, but he still could have gotten that far without it, it just would have taken a lot more to drive him to that point.

 

Brandon himself stated that it was only partially because of the True Power use, Im trying to find the quote.

 

if his mental state was the reason then he would have had it after he escaped the box in LoC; as thats when he began to break down mentally and when he started to neglect parts of the pattern and turn a blind eye.

 

 

also, before it's mentioned; Moridon is willingly a servant of the DO, and therefor there is no turning him so it woudlnt' effect him phsyically. rand on the other hand, its a forceble turn, which i woudl think would have soem effect since part of him woudl be fighting it. hence Min's statemen of seeing the dot of light in the middle of the black.

[capuga]

Here's a point I have been thinking on that I don't think I have previously brought up:

 

What would Taim have expected to happen when he joined up with Rand? We see when he first goes to the farm with Rand that he doesn't expect any men to have answered the amnesty. And he doesn't expect any of the men who do show up to actually be able to channel. So he has no reason to believe that he's going to be part of an organization like the Black Tower. Certainly no reason to think that he would be put in charge of it. As an imfamous False Dragon, he's much more likely to be mistrusted and watched over closely.

 

So the most likely result of showing up and presenting himself to Rand is that Rand will keep him around and under his watchful eye. Does he want to gain Rand's trust so that he can strike at an opportune time? Does he want to spy of Rand for the Shadow? Is he hoping to use this position near Rand as a way to power (which I think is most likely)? I don't know. But it seems to me that what he was expecting was to gain a position where he would be around Rand all the time. I have to believe in his mind he realizes its much more likely that he will be around Rand constantly.

 

 

Taim makes it quite clear when he shows up that he wants to be Rand's advisor/teacher. Yes, he wants to be close to Rand and guide him. That makes perfect sense. Rand just lost his teacher Asmodean. he is alone against both the Forsaken and Aes Sedai who he thinks might try to control him or gentle him or both. He just announced an amnesty for channelers which Taim knows about when he shows up. He would hardly expect to be put under guard in this situation. Being a false dragon is a perfect excuse (in fact, the only good excuse) for being an experienced channeler and ask to become Rand's teacher. Rand would certainly be suspicious of anybody else who showed up with similar skills. He warns Taim to watch for Forsaken hiding among the students. This is actually just about the only thing the we ever see that shakes Taim up.

Asking to be Rand's advisor agrees with Ishy's MO too. He did the same thing with Arthur Hawkwing.

 

And that's exactly my point. Taim shows up expecting to be around Rand constantly. I'm not saying that he is under guard. Just that Rand would notice if his teacher/advisor was disappearing all the time to take care of other plans. Although I believe that Moridin was immediately Nae'blis upon his transmigration and the other Forsaken just didn't know it right away, that's not really the point. Even if he wasn't Nae'blis, Moridin would still have his own plans and goals to take care of that would take his time. Time he would not have if he was tied to Rand's side. Makes much more sense to send a trusted underling to accompany Rand.

 

It doesn't make sense to issue confusing orders to your underlings.

It doesn't make sense to put yourself in a position where all your time is forced to be around Rand and you can't see to any of your other goals.

It doesn't make sense that Moridin would have enough time to run the Black Tower and take care of his duties in the Blight.

It doesn't make sense to have two Forsaken hanging around the Black Tower.

It doesn't make sense that Rand sees Moridin's face through the link often but never Taim's.

It doesn't make sense that RJ implied Taim was ragged looking from being harried to Andor when Moridin wouldn't need to be.

 

A great deal about this theory does not make any sense. So you get explanations like a True Power disguise that works differently than a saidin MoM despite there being no evidence of this existing. That Taim disappears from his Black Tower all the time to go to the Blight despite the evidence we have seen is that Taim spends his time in the Black Tower training his special darkfriends and that Moridin spends most of his time in the Blight. That the conflicting orders really aren't that different despite the fact that differing orders are unnecessary and leave the possibility of things happening that you don't want. And so on.

 

Again, Taim=Taim: One assumption that Taim is Moridin's pupil. Not hard to believe and explains everything. Taim=Moridin: An increasingly long string of various assumptions that makes less and less sense.

 

And this isn't evidence, but I just think it would be much cooler plot wise for Taim to just be a competent darkfriend on his own without him having to be some Forsaken. We've got enough of those and seen them do enough. It would be better plot-wise for Taim just to be cool all on his own.

[herid]

I believe it was stated by RJ that the saa cannot be hidden, though I do not know where that quote is.

There is nothing like this in the interview database. a reference, please. I'd expect it would have come up long before now in all the raging discussions of Taim=Moridin. The theory has been around for years. I also would find it exceeding strange if saa could not be hidden by an illusion weave. That would makes no sense.

 

So you say Taim managed not to channel in their presence between the end of ACoS and WH?

I assume you are referring to Demandred's remark in WH Ch 13 that Moridin must have channeled only TP since their last meeting.

Not at all. I'm thinking about the renegade AM and how they've seen Taim for some time after the crossing of the BF streams. If Taim experienced the same sickness Rand did, the easiest way to deal with that would be to use the TP in front of his followers and have them know that he can (because he's such a big shot). But Kisman does talk with Demandred now and again. And Demandred would've picked up on Taim's channeling the TP as a sign of something strange. So we know Taim doesn't make his channeling of the TP publicly known (if he even can, but that's a good bet, I think). Makes it harder to consider Taim to be Moridin.

 

oh, I see what you are saying. This might, perhaps, be explained if Demandred does know about Taim=Moridin (maybe not from the very beginning). It's hard to say who knows what and when on the issue. But it really all goes back to the main problem of channeling sickness for Moridin that I mentioned before. if Moridin does get sick when he channels saidin then it's quite hard to see how Taim could be Moridin - I certainly admit that. It might be possible but I would consider it pretty far fetched. However, we don't know for sure what's happening with Moridin when he channels saidin. There are a number of question marks there.

 

as I said, I find the fact that both he and Rand would get sick when channeling saidin pretty strange given that Moridin was channeling TP when the link was formed and both he and Rand got sick at the time. also, Rand gets sick (and affects Moridin via link) when he either seizes or releases saidin. There is one instance in the book (WH prologue) when Rand gets sick without doing anything and the natural assumption is that Moridin channeled saidin. But if this is what happened then Rand should get sick a second time when Moridin released saidin. This is not mentioned. I'm not sure what to make of this. it could simply be an oversight by the writer. or maybe Moridin channeled very briefly. It is also not clear why Moridin (if he is not Taim) would want to channel saidin at all. He never did it even before the link was formed and Ishy used TP exclusively. if Moridin does use saidin occasionally one would expect that he would have tried at least once before that episode in WH but after the link was formed (30 days pass in between). But then Rand should have felt the sickness without channeling long before that scene in WH.

 

It is also somewhat strange if Moridin would channel saidin once, get the sickness and then totally give up on it and never even try to channel saidin again, not even to try to figure out what was happening. just one time would not be enough for him to understand what was really going on. yet, there are no other instances of Moridin making Rand sick via the link except for that one time.

 

anyway, without a good understanding of the link and what it does to both of them with respect to channeling sickness I don't want to theorize too much on what the channeling sickness argument does to Taim=Moridin theory.

[OptimusPrime]

Ok guys and gals, the level of quoting required is getting WAAAAY beyond my ability to handle, so bare with. (not even that much time has passed and loads has been said!)

 

As to why the contradicting orders and the irrelevence, fair enough, I shouldnt have just said it on its own and waited. But I have explained that, you cannot write this off simply because of an incosistency-if you would call it that-because these characters are depicted as real people. People say things, plans change.

 

Yes, plans change. But both of those orders are recently given to Kisman after the failed attempt to kill Rand. So its not a matter of Moridin changing his mind after certain events have occured. He gives these orders to Kisman at the same time.

 

No. They are not at the same time. At least I don’t believe they are anyway.

 

Winters Heart p452, Out of Thin Air

 

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as clear as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

 

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taims order.

 

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all bring eveything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions."

 

Kismans PoV carries on to say Moidin sounds as if the killing of Rand isnt the important thing.

 

Now it is clear that we all will interpret this in our own way, but to me the fact that it says later still and so on, gives me the impression that these things did not happen at the same time. For example Taim gave the order for the attack which was the attack in Caemlyn. FM was the last chance, according to Taim, and Demandred gave the order to kill Rand between Caemlyn and FM, but also, after Rand declared the plan for the Cleansing to Moridin, Moridin then reacts using his own face by telling Kisman that Rands possessions are the only important thing. The point? If Taim was seen to give two orders in quick succession... "Kill Rand, wait, I want his possessions," THAT would be confusing to Kisman. But if the second order came from Moridin, who claims to be Chosen, which Taim has not done as far as we know, then who do you think Kisman is going to obey? Taim the M'Hael who answers to the Chosen, or Moridin who IS Chosen?

 

I actually find Demandreds kill order to be the more difficult to fathom because he said "kill him and dont let the M'Hael find out if you fail" basically. It just... I cant figure out whether or not Demandred knew Moridin was going to give two seperate orders, and thought to interfere and try and work on his own objective of Rand dying from within Moridins double order plot...

 

Since then, Rand declared-to Mazridin himself-that he was going to Cleanse saidin. I imagine that the Demandred kill order was before this, but that Moridins order was AFTER Rand said he was going to do it.

 

Come on man, dont discard it based simply on that. You can think of better reasons why Taim isnt Moridin, I am sure of it.

 

Sorry Drekka but there have been better reasons mentioned throughout this thread numerous times. All of those, combined with BS latest comments, come fairly close to wrapping this one up for me.

 

Thats cool, I can appreciate it. Clearly this will not be concluded by anything but AMoL itself. I just hope those that oppose the theory can appreciate my stance as well; I do not defend it simply because I came up with it, but because I cannot see anything that disproves it, just as those on the opposite side of the fence are not "convinced" by what me and herid consider evidence for it.

 

Time will tell as it always does.

 

Dude, even though I don't agree, I've been seriously impressed by your persistence on this one. Will be fun to see how it plays out.

 

Hehe, nice one. You know I never intended to become such a troll with it, originally I was only guna post it in response to the remnant of a remnant of Taimandred talk, but it kind of came out better than I expected and time and time again I seem to get these little things that arent necessarily confirmation, but you know. The hand reference being there in ToM when I was specifically looking for something, how can I do anything but see it as another hint?

 

Anyway, its only a theory. A ridiculously complicated one, to call it a long shot is to call a mountain a pebble

 

I just thought of something (new, I think). Kisman's orders make it clear that - if Taim is Moridin - his favorites in the BT don't know about it. Well, that makes it very unlikely that he can use TP in their presence. I mean, they do on occasion talk with other FS. If he pretended just to be someone entrusted with the use of TP in this Age, another FS would find that very odd indeed considering it's now been restricted to Moridin's use alone (before that whole Graendal thing). So... we're left with his using saidin, and I think that takes away the most likely explanation regarding the 'link-based-counter-evidence'.

 

Ahhh, whoever Taim is or isnt, the guy gets my seal of approval. He has created such a strong reaction from the Fandom, an enigma that keeps people interested in the WoT.

Couldnt agree more. The guy is a freakin legend whether he is Moridin or not, an incredibly well-written character, does exactly what he is supposed to; generate interest.

I agree completely that his plot-line is very well written, but how can you say that his character is? We know absolutely nothing of his motivations, desires, thoughts. He's pretty much two-dimensional still, after all that time. We speculate about him, but that's not the same as character development.

 

How can I say his character is well written? Compare him to the other hinted at Darkfriends. Its no longer about whether or not hes a Darkfriend, its about how high ranking he is, what level of information he is privy to, whether or not he can channel the True Power. I dare say he has more mystery around him than Moridin ever did.

 

KoD epilogue. That scene was by far one of the more classic villain moments of the books, when he says let the lord of chaos rule and the room errupts in mens laughter like every single one of them is in on the joke, meaning they are all Darkfriends. My God, I think there are few moments Moridin has to match that.

[yoniy0]

Okay, first of all, it was Cairhien, not Caemlyn. Second, that attack was itself after Rand revealed his plans, and was ordered because of that. Third, we don't have to speculate; Kisman tried killing Rand, not sneaking into his rooms to retrieve the Access Keys. How's that for confusing orders?

Lastly, on a different topic, mystery isn't the same as depth. As I said, Taim remains 2D, at least for now.

[Southpaw89]

I keep telling myself that Taim is just Taim but the more I look into the evidence, and I am rereading the series right now so I'll look more when I get there, there really is a lot to say that Taim really could be Moridin

[OptimusPrime]

Okay, first of all, it was Cairhien, not Caemlyn.

 

Nice one.

 

Second, that attack was itself after Rand revealed his plans, and was ordered because of that. Third, we don't have to speculate; Kisman tried killing Rand, not sneaking into his rooms to retrieve the Access Keys. How's that for confusing orders?

 

There were two attacks.

 

Lastly, on a different topic, mystery isn't the same as depth. As I said, Taim remains 2D, at least for now.

 

Who the hell said anything about depth? I was saying he is an awesome character that generates interest, do I need to know everything about him to think that?

 

Well, of course, me saying Taim is an awesome character goes against everything I seem to stand for because none of us have ever seen Taim. So yeah, good point. TAIM is 2D. Mazridin is the awesome character