is Taim Moridin?

[DPT24]

There's some evidence for Taim=Moridin,but for the story it'd be an awful idea. Again, Taim and Mordin are two of the shadow's better bad guys, having them be the same person would be kind of disappointing, as both have great potential for the last book. Also, it's really late to reveal that and I don't think if Moridin was Taim he'd let the Aes Sedia and Logain live. Plus, Mordin's busy in the blight as the Shadow's chief strategist. Don't think he has time to be Taim.

[Zentari]

Plus, Mordin's busy in the blight as the Shadow's chief strategist. Don't think he has time to be Taim.

That would be Demandred.Moridin's more of a scheming guy.

[herid]

what about the saa? They are constantly in Moridin's eyes now, not just when he channels the TP. How does that fit in? Does he somehow hide the saa? Is it even possible?

An illusion disguise would take care of that easily enough.

[OptimusPrime]

what about the saa? They are constantly in Moridin's eyes now, not just when he channels the TP. How does that fit in? Does he somehow hide the saa? Is it even possible?

An illusion disguise would take care of that easily enough.

 

So would a non-illusion True Power version.

[OptimusPrime]

Don't think he has time to be Taim.

 

Prove it. Moridin has all the time in the world.

[yoniy0]

Round and round we go. Not according to Graendal, who was his second in command (yes, I'm cheating, she made the comment before he elevated her). Supposedly she knows a bit more than us about it.

[Red2111]

First i want to point out that just because we don't see a POV in the books about something, doesn't mean it didn't happen, so saying, it cna't have happened cause we don't have a POV or it isn't Mentioned isn't good enough evidence agaisnt it imo. take Asmo's killer. nothing hinted at it being Grendal, and all we get as an answer is Moridin telling her "your becoming too fond of killing Forsaken" yet we know this is who Asmo's killer is.

 

 

*gets disecty type tools out* Im sorry Red! I hate to do this to a fellow writer!

 

np Drekka, alls fair in debating the books *grins*

 

 

The thing is, I would imagine that Taims exploits would put him high on the Darkfriend radar once hes started making some real progress. There are that many Darkfriend Ashaman, I find it hard to believe the others wouldnt know and discuss it. The thing about that is, you already addressed that when you said we havent seen many of their meetings since the Cleansing, so small meh on this one. For now

 

what if the reason no Forsaken discusses it, or even mentions it is because Mordin or SH has told them "off limits on pain of extreme torture. muck with this and i keel you" sure i admit that the lack of active interest by the Forsaken is enough to send up flags; but we also know that Ossie was in the BT, and at meetings yet we never get a POV or report on happenings within the BT from him either.

 

 

BUT BUT BUT! We just went over the Dark One raising a new Chosen to keep the rest on their toes! So now why would he raise one and then keep it quiet? Hes just spent 3000 years waiting to insert them back into the world, what possible reason could he have for adding to their ranks and keeping it quiet?

 

lack of time aloud to put it in correctly by the Author as well as the Forsaken not really feeling threatened by it.

 

or maybe an attempt to get a one up on Rand come the last battle. keeping it from getting out, by keeping it from people, is the best way to keep it secret. Rand's mission has been to destroy the Forsaken before the Last Battle, the DO knows this and likes to play his game 4 or 5 moves in advance. also, keeping it secret and keeping the Forsaken from taking any interest at all in the BT keeps Rands attentions from it. we even see his attitude toward the BT is "i haven't got time, you go deal with it" if he suspected there was a Forsaken (newly made or disguised) running the place and turning male channelers into dreadlords, his attitude woudl be different.

 

 

so i agree that the secrecy kinda of undermines the "competition" angle. but if you think about it from a flip side, not all of the Forsakens competition for fav's was done on the outside. this could be an internal competition that we haven't been privy to see cause it hasn't touched one of the main characters yet and allowed for us to see it or there hasn't been a need to explain it to us yet. internal competition would be one of the remaining Forsaken attmepting to outdo Taim by their actions or what they bring to the plate.

 

 

But then do we really think Shaidar wouldnt have given Taim Graendals fate for... the red on black, the Stormleader references, yada yada? Come on, if Taim is under that kind of pressure from Shaidar then surely his bottom must already be sore.

 

not if the intention is to keep it secret from Rand & co. besides what you tlak about and these links you cite aren't common knoweldge. take Perrin for instance, or Matt or Rand (per inlightened LTT ultra good Rand) could they link Taim to Moridin or Demandred from these hints?? no. we can, because we've been given glimpeses into the Forsaken that the main characters havent.

 

 

Demandred knows about him, Moridin knows, Osan'gar will have, Aran'gar knew they were in the BT too, and back in the day Agi and Bal were like that *twisty finger thingy* Too many channels for word about Taim to get out, I just cant see him being a secret Chosen.

 

not if their not told abotu it, no. we know that these people knew of a person named Taim, but we dont know what they knew abotu him. as for Bal & Agi in EotW, i disagree; Tain wasn't making waves then and they mentioned nothign abotu him so thats guess work.

 

as for how much the other may or may not know, this is only specualtion as we've never heard the characters comment on Taim.

 

 

But thats just the thing, if Taim has all his lackeys doing everything then exactly what is this new secret Chosen doing in his spare time? He doesnt need to go on recruiting parties, so... what? If he isnt attending Forsaken meetings then hes got a lot of time on his hands, right? Well, let me say this. That thing about Taim and spare time, that thing you just said... the opposite is normally said against me in this. People throw "Ohhh no Taim isnt Moridin because he spends too much time at the Black Tower" at me. and expect me to take it seriously. As you just said yourself Red, much of Taims time is unnaccounted for. Where is he?

 

He is in the Blight performing Nae'blis duties as Moridin!!!! (Ohhh no Moridin isnt Taim because he spends too much time in the Blight... Ahem. Proof please. Also Moridin has Ashaman in his Blight fortress and has one summon Graendal to him.)

 

Yes, I am obsessed. We all are in our own little way!

 

i actually agree with you on this.

 

 

see, i'm not set on what i think. i'm doing a re-read and am reserving actual judgement on and theorys on Taim until i finish ToM lol (i'm almost done with DR right now) so i'm keeping my options open while at the same time, remebering the arguements for & against the theory.

 

i agree theres something up with Taim. what it is, i dunno; this is why i suggest that he could be a new Forsaken (i really also liek the idea of a DF from this age just being that bad ya know)

 

 

 

 

Hey don't forget Be'lal was BF'd by Moirane, who probably isn't powerful enough to zap him back but a few seconds. I haven't checked the timelines recently, but HE could be Taim.

 

Indeed he could. That would be a nice twist actually.

 

 

i thought the DO told Demandred he couldn't us Rahvin specifically because he was Balefired. to me, this seemed to imply to all balefired souls. if this is the case, that he couldn't use Rahvin becuae of the amount; then we can still count Sammel in as well correct??

[capuga]

This is from Terez's preliminary report on her interview with Brandon after Jordan Con (see more in the aMoL non-spoiler board):

 

Terez: If Taim already knew how to ignore heat, why did he shave his beard?

Brandon: I have no idea.

 

What I want to point out is that he does not give the question a RAFO nor does he try to create an air of mystery here. Which is what you would expect if Taim was not Taim. If Taim was anyone other than Taim, the shaving of the beard would be part of the deception and you would expect a RAFO here. As it is, he's not sure but there is no implication in this straight forward answer that there is any mystery to the question.

[herid]

This is from Terez's preliminary report on her interview with Brandon after Jordan Con (see more in the aMoL non-spoiler board):

 

Terez: If Taim already knew how to ignore heat, why did he shave his beard?

Brandon: I have no idea.

 

What I want to point out is that he does not give the question a RAFO nor does he try to create an air of mystery here. Which is what you would expect if Taim was not Taim. If Taim was anyone other than Taim, the shaving of the beard would be part of the deception and you would expect a RAFO here. As it is, he's not sure but there is no implication in this straight forward answer that there is any mystery to the question.

Yes, I agree. I asked terez to ask this question. I want to see the full transcript but this was certainly not the answer I was hoping for. still, it might be that he is simply unaware of the particular plot trick regarding the whole sweating issue when Taim is introduced. This was written a very long time before BS came aboard and there might not be anything on the issue in the RJ notes left for BS. But yes, this answer certainly does nothing to support the notion that Taim is an impostor.

[chuckievi]

Hey don't forget Be'lal was BF'd by Moirane, who probably isn't powerful enough to zap him back but a few seconds. I haven't checked the timelines recently, but HE could be Taim.

 

Indeed he could. That would be a nice twist actually.

 

 

i thought the DO told Demandred he couldn't us Rahvin specifically because he was Balefired. to me, this seemed to imply to all balefired souls. if this is the case, that he couldn't use Rahvin becuae of the amount; then we can still count Sammel in as well correct??

 

It doesn't preclude him from transmigration, it just makes it harder. If the DO has a 5 hour window, and you BF someone back 4 hours, his time is much shorter. So the amount of BF is important. I was just saying that if Moirane used very weak BF it would technically be possible.

[yoniy0]

chuckievi is correct, but perhaps it's best to mention that it's not just speculation on either of our parts; RJ said so.

[OptimusPrime]

Brandon isnt as good at Aes Sedai answers as RJ was. The "I have no idea" comment means nothing for or against anything.

 

Taim didnt have a shave, and I doubt he knew the heat trick.

[capuga]

Just like the conflicting orders aren't really significant? An explanation for all the evidence against the theory would work better than just ignoring it.

 

And an Aes Sedai answer was not needed. An RAFO would have worked just fine.

[herid]

Hey don't forget Be'lal was BF'd by Moirane, who probably isn't powerful enough to zap him back but a few seconds. I haven't checked the timelines recently, but HE could be Taim.

 

Indeed he could. That would be a nice twist actually.

 

 

i thought the DO told Demandred he couldn't us Rahvin specifically because he was Balefired. to me, this seemed to imply to all balefired souls. if this is the case, that he couldn't use Rahvin becuae of the amount; then we can still count Sammel in as well correct??

 

It doesn't preclude him from transmigration, it just makes it harder. If the DO has a 5 hour window, and you BF someone back 4 hours, his time is much shorter. So the amount of BF is important. I was just saying that if Moirane used very weak BF it would technically be possible.

It's easy enough to rule out Taim being Bel'al even if you believe that the amount of balefire that Moiraine used on him was very small.

 

Moridin is clearly Taim's boss (and Naeb'lis) and knows what the deal is with Taim whoever he is. in tPod prologue Moridin plays a game of sha’rah against himself and mentions that only 9 people alive know of the game. At the moment there were 9 Forsaken alive: Moridin, Demandred, Aran'gar, Osan'gar, Moggy, Lanfear/Cyndane (Moridin strokes her mindtrap in the scene), Graendal, Semirhage and Mesaana. If Bel'al was alive too that would make too many.

 

Besides, why would Bel'al (a Forsaken himself) change his sigil or start using Moridin's colors? no true Forsaken would do that.

 

 

Brandon isnt as good at Aes Sedai answers as RJ was. The "I have no idea" comment means nothing for or against anything.

 

Taim didnt have a shave, and I doubt he knew the heat trick.

he did know the heat trick. he was the one who taught it to Rand. I have a long post on the issue and I was trying to argue that this was evidence that Taim is an impostor regardless of whether he is Moridin or not.

 

But it is completely separate from all the other arguments about Taim so at worst it bashes my argument about his reason for shaving but nothing else.

[OptimusPrime]

Just like the conflicting orders aren't really significant? An explanation for all the evidence against the theory would work better than just ignoring it.

 

And an Aes Sedai answer was not needed. An RAFO would have worked just fine.

 

LOL. Mark. I do not ignore evidence. Listen well.

 

THIS IS ISHAMEL WERE TALKING ABOUT.

 

Moridin AS MORIDIN orders that nobody kill Rand. Then,AFTER he crossesBFs with Rand, AS MORIDIN tells Kisman iits fine. Conflicting orders, yet the use of one name apparantly puts it off the radars of oddities.

 

Demandred wants to kill Rand. But he ordered Kisman to do it. Later, in ToM, he declares that Rand is his. Conflicting words, but the use of a single name makes it all fine.

 

LISTEN.

 

Moridin as Taim:Kill Rand.

Kisman: *fails*

Demandred: Try again, better to die than the M'Hael know if you fail again.

Moridin: Kill him if you must to get his possessions.

 

Somebody PLEASE!!!! point out the contradiction. There isnt one.

 

Also if you want to talk about conflicting orders look at this one.

 

The Dark One promises the Chosen power when he wins. And you know its a lie because they will be DEAD when he breaks free. And you ALSO know... that the Dark Ones talks with Moridin WILL BE about destroying existence, not ruling it after its destroyed.

 

Conflicting orders!Oh my, if peoples words are canon, and if conflicting words mark seperate people... OH MY GOD the Dark One Moridin serves cannot be the one the others serve!

 

Do not tell me I ignore evidence. That is just rude, and ignorant. Clearly, Mark, you havented paid any attention to this thread. It is full of evidence.

[mb]

A character can change mind from time to time, but Moridin's command seems soon after Taim's. Slight chance for a change of mind being that quick.

[yoniy0]

Drekka, you can't be serious. Moridin's change of opinion regarding Rand's death sentence is well explained in the books - it's because Rand let slip that he planed to Cleanse the Source. And Demandred wishes to kill Rand himself, but nowhere does it say he has to do it with his own two hands. Remember, he likes using proxies. It's different if some other Forsaken goes ahead and kills Rand on their own (even be it Semirhage). And that's assuming Brandon nailed his motivations, which he might not. We have no similar explanation as to why Taim told the renegade AM to definitely kill Rand, and Moridin said all that was really important was finding the Access Keys. If that truly is what's important to him, and he prefer Rand alive if possible, then giving that order as Taim only makes it less likely that they will go after his belongings.

[capuga]

Just like the conflicting orders aren't really significant? An explanation for all the evidence against the theory would work better than just ignoring it.

 

And an Aes Sedai answer was not needed. An RAFO would have worked just fine.

 

LOL. Mark. I do not ignore evidence. Listen well.

 

THIS IS ISHAMEL WERE TALKING ABOUT.

 

Moridin AS MORIDIN orders that nobody kill Rand. Then,AFTER he crossesBFs with Rand, AS MORIDIN tells Kisman iits fine. Conflicting orders, yet the use of one name apparantly puts it off the radars of oddities.

 

Demandred wants to kill Rand. But he ordered Kisman to do it. Later, in ToM, he declares that Rand is his. Conflicting words, but the use of a single name makes it all fine.

 

LISTEN.

 

Moridin as Taim:Kill Rand.

Kisman: *fails*

Demandred: Try again, better to die than the M'Hael know if you fail again.

Moridin: Kill him if you must to get his possessions.

 

Somebody PLEASE!!!! point out the contradiction. There isnt one.

 

Also if you want to talk about conflicting orders look at this one.

 

The Dark One promises the Chosen power when he wins. And you know its a lie because they will be DEAD when he breaks free. And you ALSO know... that the Dark Ones talks with Moridin WILL BE about destroying existence, not ruling it after its destroyed.

 

Conflicting orders!Oh my, if peoples words are canon, and if conflicting words mark seperate people... OH MY GOD the Dark One Moridin serves cannot be the one the others serve!

 

Do not tell me I ignore evidence. That is just rude, and ignorant. Clearly, Mark, you havented paid any attention to this thread. It is full of evidence.

 

I pay a great deal of attention to this thread since this is the only theory that I have a strong feeling for one way or the other. Since this seems to be your favorite theory you may have noticed that I have previously been one of the most vocal anti-Taim=Moridin people on the boards. First, the conflicting orders are very significant. Taim wants Rand dead. Moridin wants his possessions and doesn't mind if Rand dies. But the possessions are the important factor. What happens if the Asha'man only follow "his" orders as Taim? He doesn't get what he mosts wants which is Rand's possessions. Why take this chance? There is zero upside to issuing confusing orders to your underlings.

 

My point was that a page or two back you made a post that said something like: I just realized how insignificant the conflicting orders in WH are. That's it with no explanation as to why that is.

 

Then this page you just dismiss an interesting little nugget of new evidence as no big deal and Taim never had a shave. These kind of dismissive responses to evidence that doesn't support your theory does nothing to further your theory. Providing an explanation as to how these clues do not invalidate Taim=Moridin would be more effective than just dismissing it out of hand.

[mb]

A reply I sent through private messaging::

Even if Ishamael/Moridin is the origin of the combination (in this series), it does not necessarily mean Taim follows him.

There might be a chance of Taim being under Compulsion.

that would mean that Taim is not a darkfriend. I don't think anybody seriously believes that anymore. This is not something I'm willing to spend time and effort debating, sorry.

 

Even from reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages, I am still uncertain of Taim's alliance.

Though I am certain about Taim being non-Light.

 

Moghedien used Compulsion on Liandrin. Fires of Heaven.

The last post of that thread told that the topic could be discussed here.

[yoniy0]

mb, your link's broken. And it's not very clear what you intended to say. But yeah, I meant the discussion of Taim's identity to be conducted here, at least where it doesn't focus on certain niches - such as the (im)possibility that Taim is actually Asmodean (people on that thread seem content with discussion Asmodean rather than Taim, which is why I didn't close it as well).

[herid]

A reply I sent through private messaging::

http://www.dragonmou...ost__p__1814513

 

Even from reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages, I am still uncertain of Taim's alliance.

Though I am certain about Taim being non-Light.

 

Moghedien used Compulsion on Liandrin. Fires of Heaven.

The last post of that thread told that the topic could be discussed here.

Moggy had a good reason to do so. What would be the reason for Moridin to compel Taim if Taim is a DF? there is absolutely no evidence that Taim is under compulsion.

He always appears in complete control of himself and makes a lot of snap executive decisions. This is nothing at all like a person under serious compulsion like Morgase was for example.

Lastly, why would Moridin need to compel Taim to make him use his colors? that makes no sense.

[mb]

edited

 

There are very few on-screen scenes of Taim.

The signs could probably have occurred off-screen.

 

As for Moridin's reason, maybe so that a supposed following might be plausible to Ashamen that know Moridin.

Or it might be another Forsaken's Compulsion; their reason, possibly to make it appear to Moridin that Taim follows him.

[herid]

edited

 

There are very few on-screen scenes of Taim.

there are plenty of Taim scenes to fully support what I said of him. He is a supremely self confident individual, fully in control of his faculties making a lot of snap executive decisions.

The signs could probably have occurred off-screen.

in other words, there are no signs that he is under compulsion.

 

As for Moridin's reason, maybe so that a supposed following might be plausible to Ashamen that know Moridin.

I can make no sense of this statement.

Or it might be another Forsaken's Compulsion; their reason, possibly to make it appear to Moridin that Taim follows him.

Moridin makes his followers use his colors personally. If somebody would start doing it unbidden he would find it very strange and suspicious indeed.

[OptimusPrime]

Just like the conflicting orders aren't really significant? An explanation for all the evidence against the theory would work better than just ignoring it.

 

And an Aes Sedai answer was not needed. An RAFO would have worked just fine.

 

LOL. Mark. I do not ignore evidence. Listen well.

 

THIS IS ISHAMEL WERE TALKING ABOUT.

 

Moridin AS MORIDIN orders that nobody kill Rand. Then,AFTER he crossesBFs with Rand, AS MORIDIN tells Kisman iits fine. Conflicting orders, yet the use of one name apparantly puts it off the radars of oddities.

 

Demandred wants to kill Rand. But he ordered Kisman to do it. Later, in ToM, he declares that Rand is his. Conflicting words, but the use of a single name makes it all fine.

 

LISTEN.

 

Moridin as Taim:Kill Rand.

Kisman: *fails*

Demandred: Try again, better to die than the M'Hael know if you fail again.

Moridin: Kill him if you must to get his possessions.

 

Somebody PLEASE!!!! point out the contradiction. There isnt one.

 

Also if you want to talk about conflicting orders look at this one.

 

The Dark One promises the Chosen power when he wins. And you know its a lie because they will be DEAD when he breaks free. And you ALSO know... that the Dark Ones talks with Moridin WILL BE about destroying existence, not ruling it after its destroyed.

 

Conflicting orders!Oh my, if peoples words are canon, and if conflicting words mark seperate people... OH MY GOD the Dark One Moridin serves cannot be the one the others serve!

 

Do not tell me I ignore evidence. That is just rude, and ignorant. Clearly, Mark, you havented paid any attention to this thread. It is full of evidence.

 

I pay a great deal of attention to this thread since this is the only theory that I have a strong feeling for one way or the other. Since this seems to be your favorite theory you may have noticed that I have previously been one of the most vocal anti-Taim=Moridin people on the boards. First, the conflicting orders are very significant. Taim wants Rand dead. Moridin wants his possessions and doesn't mind if Rand dies. But the possessions are the important factor. What happens if the Asha'man only follow "his" orders as Taim?

 

You are looking at only what is seen, you are not reading between the lines! Think, man. Why are the possessions ie the CK access key so important? Its because Moridin doesnt want the Taint removing and the CK can pull it off. Do you see anyone else volunteering or even proposing it is possible before Rand? No, you do not. Kill Rand and he cannot do it, but get the Access Key and you can prevent ANYONE should another volunteer turn up. Do not even think about naming Logain as the next person in line.

 

As to why the contradicting orders and the irrelevence, fair enough, I shouldnt have just said it on its own and waited. But I have explained that, you cannot write this off simply because of an incosistency-if you would call it that-because these characters are depicted as real people. People say things, plans change. I have already said it, Demandred contradicts his own words, so does Moridin, Taims personality is different to Taims personality depending if Rand is there or not. Moridin saves Rand after giving a no kill order, and before giving the ok to kill him. It. Means. Nothing.

 

And to reiterate on Brandons comment, if you are so willing to disregard the evidence that not only I, but herid, has provided-herids method being FAR more proffessional than my own, which I take my hat off to him for-based entirely on an answer that could have been different, then I honestly wouldnt like to read anything at all with your way of thinking.

 

If Brandon had said RAFO, that implies that certain things are due to appear in future books. Now, it is clear at least to me that everything Brandon has said so far to us has been under strict rules of disclosure. If-IF!!!!-Taim is Moridin, and Brandon was presented with this question-bearing in mind that this would be THE secret, the one that got away from us all for so long, then how could he possibly RAFO it? You miss what RAFO means. Read and find out isnt simply a wait and see what happens analogy, it is THIS WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU LATER. Brandon will be capable of RAFOing lots of stuff, but this I imagine, if true, would be a specific REVEAL NOTHING AT ALL subject.

 

On Twitter somebody asked Brandon about Winters Heart prologue, where they specifically made the connection between the darkness that gathers around Rand in TGS and also the same thing happening around Taim in that scene in WH.

 

Listen. The darkness around Taim, specifically that aura... you read that. You think for a second that that harbors the biggest secret. Then think "If Brandon was asked about it, would he RAFO it?" RAFO would be a perfect answer, given what we have seen of Taim after, would it not?

 

Brandons response was "You are the first person I have seen to notice that." Nothing else.

 

What does that mean? He didnt RAFO it, did he?

 

Oh my God it must mean he isnt Moridin. Let me pack up the proverbial brief case and get out while I can.

 

Come on man, dont discard it based simply on that. You can think of better reasons why Taim isnt Moridin, I am sure of it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahhh, whoever Taim is or isnt, the guy gets my seal of approval. He has created such a strong reaction from the Fandom, an enigma that keeps people interested in the WoT.

 

 

Anyway, here is something people might want to discuss. I am not sure if it has been posted earlier, I only came in at about page 6.

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

The first thing that comes to my mind is how brandon said standard. It implies that he is a 3A with some special talents,. Obviously, there are many different interpretations available.