is Taim Moridin?

[freddysociety]

I apologize, found that post now. Just found this place and SO many interesting posts to read! You make alot of good points, but I'm leaning more toward that it is another Forsaken (Demandred).

I'm one of those that belive Logain will fight Taim for controll of the BT before tarmon gai'don, and think Moridin with his TP skills are a bit to much for Logain to take down.

[SylvanFox]

I apologize, found that post now. Just found this place and SO many interesting posts to read! You make alot of good points, but I'm leaning more toward that it is another Forsaken (Demandred).

I'm one of those that belive Logain will fight Taim for controll of the BT before tarmon gai'don, and think Moridin with his TP skills are a bit to much for Logain to take down.

 

It's not Demandred. RJ said so. But you'll hear that a lot.

 

Welcome to the boards.

[Mattthecoolfish]

Just going to through out the whole idea that Moridin Is often seen in a room of black stone that contains alot of Object of power; kinda sounds like the black tower to me. I vote a possible yes, but A minion could be correct too.

[Suttree]

Just going to through out the whole idea that Moridin Is often seen in a room of black stone that contains alot of Object of power; kinda sounds like the black tower to me. I vote a possible yes, but A minion could be correct too.

 

IRC Graendal visited him there and it was in the blight.

[Mattthecoolfish]

Was it? Huh well there goes that. Didn't remember it saying it was in the blight. O well -shrug-

[Finnssss22]

There's still the whole issue of Kinsman receiving separate orders to kill and/or capture Rand's possessions from each of Taim, Demandred and Moridin in WH chptr-22.

 

Kinda throws a big wrench into any theory where they aren't 3 separate people.

 

The only two theories I find credible for Taim and why he seems to have AoL knowledge are, in order of plausibility....

 

1) It is a proven fact that Ishy has been in one of his "free" cycles for at least the last 20 years. He personally killed the previous head of the BA that long ago. He has been teaching Taim for at least part of these last two decades.

 

2) Taim is from the AoL and was released from a statis box.

[number13]

Taking into account the 'pro' point number 11 in the original post, namely that LTT raves about killing Taim and this could point to him knowing who Taim is.

 

Now that Rand has absorbed LTT's memories and is at peace with them, he would then know what LTT does re: Taim.

 

If, by extension, LTT knew Taim was one of the Forsaken, I doubt Rand would rest on his laurels at this point in dealing with things before it's too late.

[b9anders]

I don't think it is plausible Taim is one of the forsaken. I do think however, all the evidence points to him being Ishamael's man, possibly a pupil/dreadlord in training.

 

He has adopted some of the affectations of the forsaken ('the so-called aiel') and was carrying one of the seals to Rand. The only place he could have got either from is Ishamael, as he was the only one awake to tutor him in these affectations and Ishamael was the only forsaken who could conceivably have come into the possession of one of the seals as well (among darkfriends he is obviously the most likely of all to have one).

 

Also, the fact that all the floors of Taim's palace are all in red and black, Moridin's colors. It is remarked on twice, and the second time we are told 'taim must like those colors'.

 

That is exactly the kind of hint Jordan loves to throw in for his readers to make the connections. There is no other reason for him to be writing about floor tiles. Of Forsaken involvement in the Black Tower, I think it is very obviously Moridin who runs that particular show, with Taim as his servant. We already know he provided the dreamspike for the BT as well.

 

I am pretty sure Demandred is in Murandy. There is obviously something fishy going on there. The way the Band was used there, the king suddenly acquiring a mind for tactics, the fact that the king has conveniently evaded the attentions of Egwene even though she has tried to make alliance with him. It all smells of Forsaken work, Demandred is the only one unaccounted for, and Sammael was sure he was working in the south. And we know Demandred has been working on securing his rule, which is exactly what has happened in Murandy.

[b9anders]

Taim's visible hate whenever Rand put him down, RJ's comment on Taim's "I need all the attention" personality. None of this points to him being a patsy for a forsaken. MAYBE 13x13ed... though assuming we've recently seen 13x13ed Asha'men he doesn't fit that either.

 

I mean, for Taim to act as a frosaken minion while being so pompous, as RJ suggested, he'd be acting more like Moridin's mind trapped pets, always sulky and half-heartedly going about their tasks when they think no one's looking... actually that might fit. Mind trapped?

 

If Taim is pompous by nature and a darkfriend, then he will be a pompous minion. He doesn't get a choice. Serve the forsaken or die. Just as the egomaniac forsaken don't get a choice in obeying Shaidar Haran or Moridin.

 

 

In fact, have we seen any of the minions of the forsaken actually be submissive?

 

I don't see his personality as having anything to do with whether he has been pulled into serving one of the forsaken or not. He has been smart enough to swallow his pride in obeying Rand's orders, to an extent. He'd do the same if one of the forsaken came calling.

[b9anders]

Unless, could Taim be one of the other forsaken reincarnated? Were there are dead chosen ones up for grabs between Taim's 'rescue' and Taim announcing himself in Caemlyn?

[Kahsm]

Taim's visible hate whenever Rand put him down, RJ's comment on Taim's "I need all the attention" personality. None of this points to him being a patsy for a forsaken. MAYBE 13x13ed... though assuming we've recently seen 13x13ed Asha'men he doesn't fit that either.

 

I mean, for Taim to act as a frosaken minion while being so pompous, as RJ suggested, he'd be acting more like Moridin's mind trapped pets, always sulky and half-heartedly going about their tasks when they think no one's looking... actually that might fit. Mind trapped?

 

If Taim is pompous by nature and a darkfriend, then he will be a pompous minion. He doesn't get a choice. Serve the forsaken or die. Just as the egomaniac forsaken don't get a choice in obeying Shaidar Haran or Moridin.

 

In fact, have we seen any of the minions of the forsaken actually be submissive?

 

I don't see his personality as having anything to do with whether he has been pulled into serving one of the forsaken or not. He has been smart enough to swallow his pride in obeying Rand's orders, to an extent. He'd do the same if one of the forsaken came calling.

 

Uhh, he shows his displeasure with everything Rand does that even remotely makes him less than Rand. Dashiva followed and took orders from Rand pretty well until he was ready to act. Knowing who Dashiva is certainly explains a lot of the questionable looks he gave at times, but he's certainly cooler than Taim is. But your going to say Taim is the patsy minion, while Dashiva one of the Chosen?

 

If he was recruited willingly as a DF, he would have to BE a chosen, because it's pretty clear he wouldn't accept orders from them and still be who he is. And if he was "convinced", then you'd think that arrogance would have been broken in many ways, he wouldn't be as cocky, arrogant and self-aggrandizing.

 

I could see it is if Ishy recruited him back when he was playing the DO, and as Moridin he still puppets Taim with Taim believing that he's working directly for the DO, and on a VERY loose leash. Like "Get close to him, and let the lord of chaos rule". And that was it. Making him effectively one of the "chosen" in his own mind.

[Dagon Thyne]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

[Kahsm]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

No, that's my whole point, there's nothing 'merely' about the man.

[Luckers]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

[Finnssss22]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

[Luckers]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

Mmm perhaps. 'Seems to say' may well be the key there, though, as there are several oddities in the portrayal of the imagery of the Towers--and in many ways what it seems to say is not very accurate. After all it starts with thirteen--and yet there were onces tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Chosen, and for that matter at least twenty-nine altogether who stood equal to the thirteen that survived into modern times--so its beginning in a set state, roughly EotW era. Or perhaps more accurately it begins with the perception of the Forsaken to a Third Ager--the myth of them, in effect.

 

This would make more sense anyway, as nor do the towers fall and rise to show death and rebirth along the way, with the possible exception of Moridin, if indeed the sagging and rising tower does refer to Moridin, and not, say Graendal, who falls in TofM and may yet rise. Certainly that would explain why the others who died and rose aren't shown--in effect the whole dreams seems caste originally in Egwene perceptions--or else it should have shown thousands, or began with six. Or shown thirteen and shown the steady progression, fall and rise and fall again. It seems instead to start with the concept, and then to bring that concept in line with the truth.

 

In which case Taim would have no place anyway, as none but the Thirteen hold place within the concept. In effect, whilst the Midnight Towers may all be Chosen, not all Chosen may be Midnight Towers.

 

In any case whatever Taim has become, I suspect he stands higher than Alviarin.

[Majsju]

Unless, could Taim be one of the other forsaken reincarnated? Were there are dead chosen ones up for grabs between Taim's 'rescue' and Taim announcing himself in Caemlyn?

 

Nope. When Taim appeared in Caemlyn, the list of dead forsaken looked like this:

 

Aginor - Recycled as Osan'gar

Balthamel - Recycled as Aran'gar

Ishamael - Recycled as Moridin

Lanfear - Recycled (or soon to be recycled) as Cyndane

Be'lal - Balefired

Rahvin - Balefired

Asmodean - Impossible to recycle, according to RJ.

[OptimusPrime]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

Mmm perhaps. 'Seems to say' may well be the key there, though, as there are several oddities in the portrayal of the imagery of the Towers--and in many ways what it seems to say is not very accurate. After all it starts with thirteen--and yet there were onces tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Chosen, and for that matter at least twenty-nine altogether who stood equal to the thirteen that survived into modern times--so its beginning in a set state, roughly EotW era. Or perhaps more accurately it begins with the perception of the Forsaken to a Third Ager--the myth of them, in effect.

 

This would make more sense anyway, as nor do the towers fall and rise to show death and rebirth along the way, with the possible exception of Moridin, if indeed the sagging and rising tower does refer to Moridin, and not, say Graendal, who falls in TofM and may yet rise. Certainly that would explain why the others who died and rose aren't shown--in effect the whole dreams seems caste originally in Egwene perceptions--or else it should have shown thousands, or began with six. Or shown thirteen and shown the steady progression, fall and rise and fall again. It seems instead to start with the concept, and then to bring that concept in line with the truth.

 

In which case Taim would have no place anyway, as none but the Thirteen hold place within the concept. In effect, whilst the Midnight Towers may all be Chosen, not all Chosen may be Midnight Towers.

 

In any case whatever Taim has become, I suspect he stands higher than Alviarin.

 

Thing about the thirteen towers is that Egwene isnt likely to Dream about Chosen who have been dead for 3000 years so its not really innacurate. Thered be no reason for RJ to put hints about AoLers unless theyre relevent to the present.

 

That being said I could be wrong, I just cant see any other way for that Dream to be interpretted.

 

Unless, could Taim be one of the other forsaken reincarnated? Were there are dead chosen ones up for grabs between Taim's 'rescue' and Taim announcing himself in Caemlyn?

 

Nope. When Taim appeared in Caemlyn, the list of dead forsaken looked like this:

 

Aginor - Recycled as Osan'gar

Balthamel - Recycled as Aran'gar

Ishamael - Recycled as Moridin

Lanfear - Recycled (or soon to be recycled) as Cyndane

Be'lal - Balefired

Rahvin - Balefired

Asmodean - Impossible to recycle, according to RJ.

 

So are you saying you think Moridin was recycled already when Taim showed up? And more importantly are you saying that being recycled disproves him? Because him being recycled is precisely what makes the whole thing possible. Sure, we didnt see Moridin "himself" in Lord of Chaos but when we did see him he already had sa'a, which lends credence to the whole True Power disguise thing. From Lord of Chaos to whenever we got his re-intro he was almost always TP disguised, hence the sa'a.

[Suttree]

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

Considering RJ has said the mark is akin to the one a kennel club puts in a dogs ear to show who she belongs to and that she has no power to control shadpowspawn I find that highly unlikely. Taim most definitely stands the higher.

[MasterAblar]

I hate to be the one to say this, but isn't it possible that the dream just wasn't written or thought out very well? It seems that either Egwene did not notice that 4 towers (Ishamael, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel) fell and then rose again, and that two of those (Arangar, Osangar fell once more, or else it just wasn't in the dream (which seems more likely), which is awfully strange since it doesn't accurately represent how the situation of the Forsaken evolved throughout the books. The only thing that seems to make sense, at least to me, is that 13 towers stood at the beginning of the dream, 1 fell and rose once more greater than all the others (presumably Moridin who fits this description best and whose position as second only to the Dark One appears to be impossible to contest) and 6 towers (Moridin, Demandred, Cyndane, Graendal, Mesaana, Moghedien) are standing at the end. Which is admitidly the gist of the situation among the Forsaken, but as Luckers said the second rising of 3 of the Forsaken is not portrayed in the dream. Is this an intentional omission or an accidental one?

 

Considering RJ has said the mark is akin to the one a kennel club puts in a dogs ear to show who she belongs to and that she has no power to control shadpowspawn I find that highly unlikely. Taim most definitely stands the higher.

 

I agree with that. Although in the entire series, Taim may well be the character who has the most mystery surrounding him, so you never know with him.

[Tom Sawyer]

I still think that Taim is Demandred and will consider any scene in the last book with the two of them chatting to each other to be a misprint.

[OptimusPrime]

I hate to be the one to say this, but isn't it possible that the dream just wasn't written or thought out very well? It seems that either Egwene did not notice that 4 towers (Ishamael, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel) fell and then rose again, and that two of those (Arangar, Osangar fell once more, or else it just wasn't in the dream (which seems more likely), which is awfully strange since it doesn't accurately represent how the situation of the Forsaken evolved throughout the books. The only thing that seems to make sense, at least to me, is that 13 towers stood at the beginning of the dream, 1 fell and rose once more greater than all the others (presumably Moridin who fits this description best and whose position as second only to the Dark One appears to be impossible to contest) and 6 towers (Moridin, Demandred, Cyndane, Graendal, Mesaana, Moghedien) are standing at the end. Which is admitidly the gist of the situation among the Forsaken, but as Luckers said the second rising of 3 of the Forsaken is not portrayed in the dream. Is this an intentional omission or an accidental one?

 

Im not sure what you mean when you say rising of the Forsaken. It shows us their situation from when all 13 were loose. The reason Egwene didnt figure anything out about them is because she hasnt had enough dealings with them to know anything.

 

I still think that Taim is Demandred and will consider any scene in the last book with the two of them chatting to each other to be a misprint.

 

RJ said outright that Taim is not Demandred, and that he was surprised people thought that.

 

Ishamael is nothing like Demandred, thats why.

[MasterAblar]

I hate to be the one to say this, but isn't it possible that the dream just wasn't written or thought out very well? It seems that either Egwene did not notice that 4 towers (Ishamael, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel) fell and then rose again, and that two of those (Arangar, Osangar fell once more, or else it just wasn't in the dream (which seems more likely), which is awfully strange since it doesn't accurately represent how the situation of the Forsaken evolved throughout the books. The only thing that seems to make sense, at least to me, is that 13 towers stood at the beginning of the dream, 1 fell and rose once more greater than all the others (presumably Moridin who fits this description best and whose position as second only to the Dark One appears to be impossible to contest) and 6 towers (Moridin, Demandred, Cyndane, Graendal, Mesaana, Moghedien) are standing at the end. Which is admitidly the gist of the situation among the Forsaken, but as Luckers said the second rising of 3 of the Forsaken is not portrayed in the dream. Is this an intentional omission or an accidental one?

 

Im not sure what you mean when you say rising of the Forsaken. It shows us their situation from when all 13 were loose. The reason Egwene didnt figure anything out about them is because she hasnt had enough dealings with them to know anything.

 

What I mean by second rising is simply when the DO caught their souls and put them into new bodies. Basically when they (Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, Lanfear) came back to life. Apart from Moridin falling and rising once more (if that tower does represent Moridin, which I think is very probable), there is no description of other towers falling and rising once more to symbolise the rebirths of the previously mentioned Forsaken. Obviously I would not expect Egwene to know what that means since she has dealt very little with the Forsaken. However that didn't stop her from mentioning the one tower that did fall and rise again. She didn't know what it meant (in fact she failed to understand the dream at all, which is sort of odd, since 13 tall dark towers should be somewhat obvious for someone as clever as her), but she still mentioned it. Why not mention the other towers that fell and rose again (and fell once more in the case of Aginor and Balthamel)?

[Finnssss22]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

Mmm perhaps. 'Seems to say' may well be the key there, though, as there are several oddities in the portrayal of the imagery of the Towers--and in many ways what it seems to say is not very accurate. After all it starts with thirteen--and yet there were onces tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Chosen, and for that matter at least twenty-nine altogether who stood equal to the thirteen that survived into modern times--so its beginning in a set state, roughly EotW era. Or perhaps more accurately it begins with the perception of the Forsaken to a Third Ager--the myth of them, in effect.

 

This would make more sense anyway, as nor do the towers fall and rise to show death and rebirth along the way, with the possible exception of Moridin, if indeed the sagging and rising tower does refer to Moridin, and not, say Graendal, who falls in TofM and may yet rise. Certainly that would explain why the others who died and rose aren't shown--in effect the whole dreams seems caste originally in Egwene perceptions--or else it should have shown thousands, or began with six. Or shown thirteen and shown the steady progression, fall and rise and fall again. It seems instead to start with the concept, and then to bring that concept in line with the truth.

 

In which case Taim would have no place anyway, as none but the Thirteen hold place within the concept. In effect, whilst the Midnight Towers may all be Chosen, not all Chosen may be Midnight Towers.

 

In any case whatever Taim has become, I suspect he stands higher than Alviarin.

 

 

 

Only the 13 were imprisoned though making all the other chosen from the AoL irrelevant.

 

I do agree though, you would think that Taim holds a higher place than Alviarin. I still don't think that he has been raised to chosen though.

We shall see I guess.

[MasterAblar]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

Mmm perhaps. 'Seems to say' may well be the key there, though, as there are several oddities in the portrayal of the imagery of the Towers--and in many ways what it seems to say is not very accurate. After all it starts with thirteen--and yet there were onces tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Chosen, and for that matter at least twenty-nine altogether who stood equal to the thirteen that survived into modern times--so its beginning in a set state, roughly EotW era. Or perhaps more accurately it begins with the perception of the Forsaken to a Third Ager--the myth of them, in effect.

 

This would make more sense anyway, as nor do the towers fall and rise to show death and rebirth along the way, with the possible exception of Moridin, if indeed the sagging and rising tower does refer to Moridin, and not, say Graendal, who falls in TofM and may yet rise. Certainly that would explain why the others who died and rose aren't shown--in effect the whole dreams seems caste originally in Egwene perceptions--or else it should have shown thousands, or began with six. Or shown thirteen and shown the steady progression, fall and rise and fall again. It seems instead to start with the concept, and then to bring that concept in line with the truth.

 

In which case Taim would have no place anyway, as none but the Thirteen hold place within the concept. In effect, whilst the Midnight Towers may all be Chosen, not all Chosen may be Midnight Towers.

 

In any case whatever Taim has become, I suspect he stands higher than Alviarin.

 

 

 

Only the 13 were imprisoned though making all the other chosen from the AoL irrelevant.

 

I do agree though, you would think that Taim holds a higher place than Alviarin. I still don't think that he has been raised to chosen though.

We shall see I guess.

 

Same here. He's probably the highest ranked apart from the Forsaken among the DO's minion. Except for Shaidar Haran of course.