Aviendahs viewings

[AnimusMessor]

I feel 100% they are dead. rememember, In the last vision Avi has, the Queen of Caemlyn is in her mid 30's.

[Brammeri]

Is it possible that in Avi's viewing her kid seemed to regard them all as "gone" because they left elsewhere instead of dying...it might tie into the "three on a boat and the one who is dead yet lives" and the "to live you must die" thingy...

 

I would be really pissed of if they sail away at the end just like in the lord of the ring.

 

 

Yet, as RJ started out to some extent mimicking LoTR, why should this not be the case?

It is entirely possible that is how RJ first saw it.

 

The good thing is that for all the original echoes of LoTR, we now have something entirely different.

[yoniy0]

The first viewing is 16 or 17 (I think) years after the Last Battle.

Yes, I just reread that chapter, and that struck me as odd as well. Mostly not because of Aviendha or Rand (though it's interesting that the Aiel think he left them - meaning that he didn't simply fall in battle; also, Aviendha's granddaughter knew her face, but her daughter already thought of her in past tense years before). They say that the old Empress's rule ended "years ago", merely 17 years post-TG. That means Tuon's had a very short term in office. Why? What happened?

 

Also, the references to the so-called "Andoran war machines" seem to dispell my worst fear about the way ToM ended - Elayne kept all but few of Aludra's 'dragons' in a warehouse in Caemlyn, and the city is practically in the hands of the Shadow now.

[nnokwoodeye]

You know, there are some subtle hints in the viewing that make me think that the future Seanchan might not be as oppressive as they are now.

first, there are the miners who refused to trade with the Aiel. they were worried about losing their charter, not about their lives or their freedom. this seem to suggest that slavery and the death penalty are not very common anymore.

second, there is the fact that the Seanchan have made an agreement with shara about the isolation of the Aiel. considering that shara is ruled by channelers it isn't very likely that they would find common ground with people who enslave their kind unless this was no longer happening.

and finally there the fact that the Asha'man were still free and fighting from their hiding place. how long do you think the Seanchan would be able to hold against people who are completely undetectable until they burn a village and can secretly "wife bond" people of means into giving them support? let's face it, those guys would be the most efficient terrorists freedom fighters ever.

[Telcar]

The things that stand out from Avi viewing for me are:

 

The first viewing is 16 or 17 (I think) years after the Last Battle. Where are Avi and Rand? Its really not clear what happened.

 

The next viewing is 40 years after the Last Battle and it sounds that Rand and Elaynes grandchildren are running Andor. Where did Elayne go? She is a channeler and should live a long time.

Why 40 years? Did I miss something? Someone else mentioned that the "current" queen of Andor was in her mid 30's. She is at least that. Then that means that one of Elayne's kids would have had to have children of their own by the time he/she was ten? Not really fitting.

 

It was terrible indeed. World became a more terrible place than it already was. You remember what Birgitte said when she first saw Mat's dragons working. "I can feel that the world has drastically changed now" In Avi's viewing it is mentioned that it is when the enemy began to use them, the course of the battle is changed.

Aside from Elayne and Avi, Egwene was also not there too as far as I remember. I must read the part again.

 

I think that Birgitte's quote is just a subtle way for BS to bring about the gunpowder age which obviously leads to the industrial age, or the beginning of it, that we see in Aviendhas first viewing (the railroads).

 

One thing I noticed about Avienda's visions in a recent re-read, that I didn't notice before, was that in one of the visions they mention about how the Senchean forced Rand to kneel to their Empress.

We know that in the 'pure' prophecy, that he will bind the nine moons to him, and that in the 'corrupted' prophecy, that he will kneel to the Crystal Throne.

While these two prophecies aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, it's unlikely that both will come to pass, so either one or the other will happen. Like many other branching roads in the series, I think that the fate of the world after the last battle depends on which one of these two prophecies is fulfilled. If Rand kneels, the Senchean rule the world after the LB and Avienda's visions come true. If Fortuona kneels, then something else may happen.

 

Thus, this is why I believe that Avienda's visions are of a possible future, but not -the- future, even if the Great Lord loses the last battle and the pattern isn't destroyed. This future can be averted, but it depends on how Rand and Fortuona's next meeting goes and who will end up submitting to whom.

 

Edit: The relevant passage:

"What care do they have for the Dragon?" Hehyal asked. "They are invaders who forced him to bow to their Empress. She is considered above him. They will not keep promises they made to an inferior."

 

Considering the way Rand acted throughout ToM, apologizing left and right, righting wrongs, doing everything he can to win the last battle. It seems to me that if the fate of the last battle depends on him kneeling before Fortuona then he will do that. Would not be too strange.

 

On a different note, who wrote the prophecies anyway? The King of Arafell (or was it the king of Kandor) said that an Aes Sedai of his line made a foretelling/prophecy

concerning Rand. It seems plausible then that an Aes Sedai or Damane in Seanchan could have a made a foretelling concerning Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne. It seems more likely that someone changed the prophecies to please the Seanchan royal line but you never know. Personally I've seldom been as scared as when I read the chapter with Aviendhas viewings. Those Seanchan scare me.

 

hi there, i'm new, anyway it always seemed wierd how little mention the shadow got in this vision and how neatly divided the world is in only one generation. we can see the roots of it now, andor, two rivers etc but it seems strange that there's no 'mopping up'almost as if it all happened off screen ( i think only one of the aiel mentions fighting in the last battle). it just rang false for me (once i got over the shock!).

 

This also seems a bit strange to me, however, there won't necessarily be a breaking as there was last time, since that was mostly caused by male Aes Sedai going mad. There's not a lot that suggests that that will happen this time around. It does seem though that a lot of people will die at TG. That Bruan is mentioned as special since he survived tells us that. Besides where are Amys and Bair and all those tough Wise Ones that seem immortal, one would think that they would have a say in the future of the Aiel if they were alive.

 

We know that Elayne will survive, we know that Aviendha will survive. Why those two? And since they survive, why aren't they around? In the future that Aviendha viewed she must have survived, obviously, but maybe without having seen the future as she has in our time. Hmm I might not be making myself clear but it seems logical that if she had seen the future destruction of the Aiel in that hypothetical future she would have stuck around to make sure it didn't happen. She doesn't so I draw the conclusion that she doesn't know about the immediate downfall of her people. Her daughter does mention though that Aviendha was passionate about the future of the Aiel so I'm still a bit torn. That entire future smelled wrong to me (Thank you Perrin).

 

The future of the Aiel might make a great second fantasy series for BS to write :P .

[Jblaylock]

Since she is a channeler and her life span is about 600 years, she would have died very young.

 

 

Why?

 

What if her children are also channelers, and while they look to be young adults, are actualy themselves about 400 or 500 years old, and the aging works slightly differently in the post LB world? Maybe she lived to be 600, died, and her children lived on to be 600, but didn't look quite as old because, as I said, post LB world aging works differently. Of course, that's just speculation, but no more or less so than what you posted.

[Sharaman]

Since she is a channeler and her life span is about 600 years, she would have died very young.

 

 

Why?

 

What if her children are also channelers, and while they look to be young adults, are actualy themselves about 400 or 500 years old, and the aging works slightly differently in the post LB world? Maybe she lived to be 600, died, and her children lived on to be 600, but didn't look quite as old because, as I said, post LB world aging works differently. Of course, that's just speculation, but no more or less so than what you posted.

Avi experiences the thoughts of her descendants so she knows how old they are.

[yoniy0]

The future of the Aiel might make a great second fantasy series for BS to write :P .

And here I was thinking Frank Herbert already did that.

[b9anders]

Not sure why people are making the Seanchan = evil connection here.

 

Yes they have some 'evil' practices, such as damane.

 

But one theme that has been repeated over and over in the books is that the Seanchan are actually quite benevolent for the average citizens and that life is good under Seanchan rule as long as you don't know how to channel.

[SvetSedi]

Does anyone else see Aviendha's vision as not realistic? I don't mean unwanted, but un-realistic.

 

Why, just taking Rand and Aviendha's four children, they are supposed to be 4 supper channelers, near to him in the Power and in dexterity. Just those four with Circles, angeral, inverting, cloaking and guerrilla warfare tactics, should have been almost unstoppable.

 

Yes, I know that the Seanchan are supposed to be a great military force, but so are the Aiel.

The Seanchan Damaine are super limited in that they cannot form Circles and cannot use Angeral etc.

 

Sure in Seanchia they were the Ever Victorious Army. But just a few clans of Aiel had their way with the Randlanders during the Aiel War and were never defeated either. They just left on their own, after accomplishing their goal.

At that time the WOs did not fight in war.

 

But in the aftermath of the Last Battle, Aviendha's vision is not realistic with all the advantages of being able to deploy hundreds and hundreds of Now Fighting Aiel WOs (with Circles, angeral, inverting, cloaking and guerilla warfare tactics +++) augmented by Aiel fighters. Add in the WT, the Black Tower, Andor (cannons) and all the rest. It really is extremely tilted against the Seanchan.

 

I know that the WT currently cannot be used directly as an attack force, but they could certianly be used in other capacities to augment the WOs. Both the AS & WOs could capture Sul’dam and Damaine. The WT might not want to use the A’dam. Most Damaine & Sul’dam can be un-brainwashed by the WT, those that can’t be might be done by the WOs methods. Those that are un-brainwashed, add to the Randlanders channeling forces. If not the AS might not be willing to use A’dam themselves, but the weaker WO’s certainly could do it for the war effort.

 

So every battle should weaken the Seanchan channeler force. Most Sul’dam and Damaine are deployed in sets of two to ten. How could they have any chance not to be captured by circles or angeral augmented groups of WOs or AS that Travel in and slam shields on them. Then Travel them out to be “reconditioned”? Using Aiel fighters & Warders to hold off, or out and out kill the Seanchan fighters. And if it was an even larger force of Sul’dam and Damaine. Again, they just have an extreme disadvantage because they can’t make Circles and use Angreal. It is the Seanchan channeling forces that should be constantly depleated, not the other way around.

 

It is just not feasible in my view, that the Seanchan would realistically have a chance of defeating such a force or tactics.

[Agitel]

If Avi's visions end up being true, anyone else think that the Shaido will be the 'remnant of a remnant' that survive? Their battered clan packed up and left the wetlands and probably just want to focus on themselves with an isolationist policy. I don't see them getting involved with the war with the Raven Empire.

[Sharaman]

They don't feature at all in the Avi visions. Since they were heading for the Waste, and Bendhuin was going to Rhuidean to test for Chief, I'd a faint hope/ expectation that they would come back into the plot at some stage. The Seanchan would hit them regardless once the other Aiel clans got into open conflict - more so because the Shaido also have channelers.

My guess is that they were isolated and wiped out, perhaps by the Seanchan, perhaps by Demandred's mysterious forces, or something else in the time-period (Avi's current timeline to TG+17 years) before Avi's visions start.