Borderland Monarchs

[randsc]

I think that the average German soldier in 1939 knew perfectly well that invading Poland was a declaration of war on France and Britain.

[anotherfingolfin]

I think that the average German soldier in 1939 knew perfectly well that invading Poland was a declaration of war on France and Britain.

 

There is a distinction between throwing the first punch and knowing that somebody is likely to throw a puch at you. But let's not get into tangential RW politics here.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Borderland nations are neither large nor wealthy. They have fought a continual war against the Shadow for 3000 YEARS, and done so so well that people a couple of hundred miles to the south believed until recently that trollocs and fades were myths. All in all, they're remarkable people, easily the most admirable in Randland.

 

As for the idea of finding safety behind walls and fortifications, I would draw your attention to France, May of 1940.

 

If you want to blame someone for the lack of preparedness for the Last Battle, I would nominate the spoiled and decadent Southlands.

 

 

[Removed for being offensive and rude]. My great-grandfather served in the 16th Army during the Battle for France. He stated that there was a distinct attitude difference. The German lines were completely energetic, full of adrenaline, filled with anger about Versailles/Ruhr occupation/Saar occupation/etc.. and the ironclad belief that they had to defend the Fatherland. Morale couldn't be much higher.

 

Whereas on the French side I believe over a million surrendered in the first few weeks alone. My great-grandfathers unit was also flooded with men simply walking towards the army on a road with their rifles held above their heads to show their pacifistic intent.

 

The difference was that the French population was strictly against a war with Germany, remembering the years of 1914-1918. The politicians were oblivious to the desires and views of the people and so forced an inevitable outcome. The French government declared war on Germany in 1939 and started drafting men from their families and homes. Most of these French men couldn't be bothered to fight Germany over Poland. The average Frenchman didn't care two dimes about starting a war of aggression against Germany over the Polish. Remember the French declared war on Germany and occupied part of the Saar prior to the Siegfried line, so for the German soldiers it was a matter of defending the homeland. For the French soldiers it was a useless war of aggression lead by arrogant politicians who didn't care one bit for their lives, all due to some nation called Poland which most could not even place on a map. This lead to a situation where the minute the German counter-attack arrived the entire French line collapsed and there were mass surrenders. That's mostly what lost them the conflict and is still a controversial topic today in France.

 

 

What does that have to do with trollocs in the Borderlands?

 

The fact remains, no wall will make the Borderlands safe. Static defenses can always be flanked. And as Hopefire alludes above, walls are a particularly stupid thing to stake your defense on in a world with Traveling and Ways.

 

As for the French, "War of Aggression" on Germany, France was honoring its treaty committments. It's a good thing for France that other nations did the same, eh?

 

 

By all means France could honor its pact commitments. That was not my point. My point was that the French population had a differing view and did not feel like starting an offensive war against Germany over Poland. It's hard to wage a war if your soldiers do not agree with your cause, that was my point. The average French soldier felt that Germany invading Poland was strictly a local affair and was none of their business, at least not insofar as that their government expected them to go into battle and get slaughtered for it. Hence the incredibly low morale and huge propensity towards surrendering without even firing a shot amongst the French military during the Battle for France.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think that the average German soldier in 1939 knew perfectly well that invading Poland was a declaration of war on France and Britain.

 

 

Considering Poland was occupying the corridor, thereby splitting Germany in half and not budging on the Danzig question most German soldiers and most of the German population at the time felt that settling the matter by force was justified. Especially considering Germany tried for almost 15 years to settle the matter through diplomacy to no avail. Hell, back in the early 1920s when Weimar Germany wished to take the matter up with the League of Nations Poland actually threatened to invade Germany (which was restricted to a 100,000 man standing army). It was precisely these anomalies which made no sense that were left behind by Versailles which lead a young Churchill in 1920 to already predict that a German-Polish war was unavoidable.

 

But this is getting a bit off topic.

[GregDietzFla]

Isnt Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight?

I allways thought that the Sheinarans went out to meet the Trollocs, before the shadow could ley siege on the fortifications and cities etc. So they meet them in Tarwin's Gap, inside the blight.

Just because RJ and BS hasn't shown us so many fortifications yet, does not mean that they are not there.

And keeping a wall INSIDE the blight, with a guard post and all, would not be a very good idea.

 

Why is keeping fortifications in the blight a bad idea?? I can see why trying to rule a nation (Malkier) wouldn't work, as its hard to grow crops, but what about the blight (other than shadowspawn) makes the blight deadly?? And shadowspawn would have to attack your fortifications... And they did show us the fortifications of Kandor (keeps) and the Saldean lower camp. I have no reason to think that they just have random fortifications throughout the country (ya im sure they have some forts and garrisons or whatnot) so ya i think we have see them. We haven't been shown Shienar or Arafel, but if theirs are much better, then i will change my topic to 'Saldea and Kandor stupid' cause as its been pointed out they only had 40-50 years vs. Kandor/Saldea 1000.

 

Fortifications are useless without garrisons. The Borderlanders could only do so much, because they could only afford so large a standing army.

 

Now taking the bulk of their armies and leaving the Borderlands to go hunt for the Dragon Reborn, THAT was stupid.

 

Fortifications are useless without garrisons, yet Kandor at least left their keeps garrisoned and still had 60k soldiers to spare, so im not seeing your point.

I also agreed that it was stupid for them to march south, however with their prophecy, what they did actually makes a lot of sense

 

 

I assume you are talking about the German invasion of France, in which case, i am finding it hard to draw a comparision. Which of the shadows forces are the panzer units. Where did they find rifles? (Not trying to be condesending, but the weaponry available invalidates this comparison).

 

Definitely a bad comparison, because there's no way for the Trollocs to move entire armies behind the lines as fast or faster than the Germans did in France!

 

Oh, wait...

 

I assume you mean the ways?? It is unlikely that the shadow would move all of its shadowspawn through the ways. They still attacked through Maradon and took on the Kandoran Keeps. And also a note on speed, it is only an advantage when your enemy is slower, as it was against France (Panzers) now that we are speaking of WoT, the light has gateways so they are faster...(I know it doesn't keep trollocs from outflanking, all im saying is that speed is a relative term)

 

 

 

 

The fact remains, no wall will make the Borderlands safe. Static defenses can always be flanked. And as Hopefire alludes above, walls are a particularly stupid thing to stake your defense on in a world with Traveling and Ways.

 

 

 

 

 

the ways answered above, however gateways kill shadowspawn so i dont see how this affects the defenses. And also im asking why didnt the monarchs build reinforcements/defenses before travelling was discovered, so your point is meaningless. And just because static defenses can always be flanked, that means that nobody should build them?? Im missing your logic. (I understand that being outflanked is a disadvantage, however fighting on ground that you have prepared for your defense of it is a huge advantage).

[randsc]

The Borderlanders don't have unlimited wealth to invest in their defenses (especially since the Southlanders are freeloading). They have to choose what to spend their money and effort on. The Saldaean Upper and Lower camp scheme was clever and effective, but if Saldaea is to be saved, it will be by its heavy cavalry, not a wall.

 

You have a greater faith in the value of walls than most people. In terms of the world of the WoT, two of the five great Captains are borderlanders, and would seem to have concluded that walls are not how they think it best to fight the Shadowspawn.

 

The bottom line is that there are very good reasons why walls and fortifications might not be terribly effective. You asked why the Borderlanders didn't build them; that's why.

 

On a more personal note, as the uncle of a developmentally-delayed child I would ask you to find a more mature way to refer to characters whose wisdom you question than, "retarded."

[GregDietzFla]

The Borderlanders don't have unlimited wealth to invest in their defenses (especially since the Southlanders are freeloading). They have to choose what to spend their money and effort on. The Saldaean Upper and Lower camp scheme was clever and effective, but if Saldaea is to be saved, it will be by its heavy cavalry, not a wall.

 

You have a greater faith in the value of walls than most people. In terms of the world of the WoT, two of the five great Captains are borderlanders, and would seem to have concluded that walls are not how they think it best to fight the Shadowspawn.

 

The bottom line is that there are very good reasons why walls and fortifications might not be terribly effective. You asked why the Borderlanders didn't build them; that's why.

 

On a more personal note, as the uncle of a developmentally-delayed child I would ask you to find a more mature way to refer to characters whose wisdom you question than, "retarded."

 

first off i apologize if i offended you with my use of the word, that was not my intention, and in the future i will not use that word. Sorry.

 

Secondly, once again a wall was just an example of a type of fortification that has proved effective throughout history. My main question is why fortifications where not built upon. That Malkier was north of Shienar and Arafel slipped my mind, and excuses them. Your answer that the Great captains deemed them not the way to fight is the best answer i have heard.

 

I dont have an unshakeable faith in walls and fortifications, however reinforcing your defenses with pre-laid out fortifications is a huge advantage when defending, which the borderlanders are going to be doing, i dont see them on the offensive any time soon.

 

Now i agree that the most effective defense is a highly mobile force that can strike in force anywhere that a threat appears. Which without travelling, requires forts or outposts so that your forces are never very far from where your enemy will be. However fortifications cause the enemy to attack you on ground of your choosing, or risk leaving a full-strength army behind them when they move on.

[anotherfingolfin]

Skipping all details, the short answer to the original question is, logistics/limited resources.

[David Selig]

The fact that no country and not even Aes Sedai ever sent help to the Borderlanders against the Trollocs had always been one of those things in the WoT worldbuilding that make little sense to me. If any of the Borderland states is to fall, Arad Doman, Andor, Cairhien and Tar Valon would've been left exposed to the Trollocs invasion. Out of simple self-preservation, they should've sent help regularly over the years. And if they were too short-sighted for that, the Borderlanders should've hinted that they might start barricading behind the walls of the cities and let the Trollcs bypass them and raid the countries south of them.

 

The way the situation is now, it's totally understandable there are people like Ingtar tired of fighting for the benefit of the ungrateful south and ready for a deal with the Shadow.

[Sharaman]

They all have reasonable defensive plans that take advantage of terrain.

Arafel has the bottleneck valley with twin forts where Lan raises the Golden Crane.

Kandor has its watchtowers.

Saldaea has the Maradon fortifications

Shienar plugs Tarwin's Gap which seems to be the only natural point which can be defended.

What they don't have is enough men.

[DocBean]

A wall would be a nice idea, and would work well against Trollocs, but the shadowspawn also have a considerable Air Force to worry about.

 

Not to mention, that's a lot of miles to build a considerable size wall without slaves.

Then again, the power does do the work of lots of slaves.... so there you go, blame the White Tower, and Taint.

[Durinax]

Nevermind, I found it on-line:

 

“We of Shienar call ourselves Bordermen, but fewer than fifty years ago, Shienar was not truly of the Borderlands. North of us, and of Arafel, was Malkier. The lances of Shienar rode north, but it was Malkier that held back the Blight. Malkier, Peace favor her memory, and the Light illumine her name.”

 

So Arafel and Sheinar have only had 50 years, not thousands, and Salaea and Kandor do in fact have significant fortifications in place.

 

The Borderlanders have done all they can. They even keep sending tribute to the White Tower, in spite of that organization's unwillingness or inability to do anything of much help.

 

Meanwhile, the Southlands slumber, oblivious, growing wealthy and comfortable while better men die to protect them. Peasants in the Two Rivers and a thousand similar places can be excused, because they simply don't know what is going on. The rulers of the southern nations have no such excuse. They know perfectly well that trollocs are real, and the Borderlands hard-pressed. And yet they spend their time on Daes Dae'mar, and their money on silks and jewels.

 

It isn't the Borderlanders who are stupid.

if you look at the map half of arafel would be exposed to the blight if Maklir was still around.

 

walls would be the dumbest thing they could do, if they heavily fortified where the shadowspawn where coming through they would just find other less efficient ways and wreak havok across less defended areas. not to mention that huge defences will create a situation where warriors become lazier due too being to comfortable inside of walls and areas that they percieve 'wont' fall. look at the defenders of the stone, they where ineffective because they where sure they would have ample warning and the walls would stand.

[Guest Randland_Samurai]

Yay it's my first post ever!!!!!

 

Now thats done....

 

I would have to say that the "current" borderland nations have certainly not had 3k years to prep for defense against the blight, it's more like a few hundred, definitely less than 1k. And one could argue that a thousand years is a significant amount time with which to fortify a position, but the borderlanders don't want to fortify more than they absolutely have to.

 

the first reason that building, and let's not forget maintaining, massive static defense measures is unreliable stems from proper resource management. they only have so much stone to work with. Of course they could import more, or devote more labor and income into quarrying more in less favourable locations, but to do so is to create an imbalance in other facets of government and general life. The increased cost would either come at the burden of the common people or at cutting their only real budget, which is their military. you would also have to take into account that this is a pre industrialized civilization, and this limits both their population and economic growth on the amount of land they have available to them. Their money and resources are simply best spent elsewhere to promote defense.

 

We need to also add in the human factor. Generation after generation, people will have different ideas about things like this, and there's no guaranteeing that a large undertaking of fortification would continue after the reign of any one ruler.

 

The second reason that building defenses like those that you propose, is that they aren't tactically suited for the type of engagements occurring. From what we have seen, trollocs like to mass numbers and attack a strategic point, i.e., a capital city, or direct route of attack. Numbers will always eventually overwhelm a fort, be it through force or starvation. Trollocs are also much larger than humans, making fighting from horseback an equalizer when it comes to brute strength. If instead of massing in numbers but instead initiating raids like they have for thousands of years, then they would simply avoid your fortifications in favor of undefended farmland. they key to defeating an enemy is mobility and the borderlanders achieve this with cavalry.

 

Trollocs are essentially heavy infantry, and you turn back and defeat heavy infantry with cavalry. At tarwin's gap the Shienarans charge into the trollocs with a wide sweeping charge of heavy cavalry, in order to smash the lines and give themselves enough space and time to wheel around and charge again. saldeans have light cavalry that they use for slashing attacks and flanking an army, as well as running down raiding parties. The watchtowers in kandor serve a similar purpose, allowing a small number of men to either defend or mobilize into farther ranging areas equally. The real way to defeat trollocs is to envelop and slaughter them, and this cannot be achieved behind static defenses.

 

Finally, the fact remains that if you did indeed build these walls and forts, then over the course of generations you would be training men how to defend rather than intiate attack. So what happens when these forts and walls finally fall?

[Lacanos]

I think it would be rather hard to build such a wall; the trollocs would probably come out and interfere no?

[RedRaider]

Also, whilst I agree with the general sentiment that the people and nations in the WoT frequently act in confusing and ineffective ways, I think you are being unfair on the borderlanders here. The paucity of organized defenses is Ishamael's greatest success, and why he has clearly been the most effective Forsaken. Every time the nations began organizing together, and therefore threatening to create unified defenses against the shadow, Ishamael destroyed that unification, either from within or without.

Ishamael wasn't completely free all the time. A good 20 year stretch would have allowed some significant defensive building beyond what they've done. Though I blame the Aes Sedai more. Even if they were unwilling to go into the Blight, sending a DECENT number of Aes Sedai to the Borderlands to help defend them whilst they construct defensive positions shouldn't have been too taxing. And help construct them - as Elaida noted when building her palace it doesn't take much strength to bind stone with the Power. The Aes Sedai could have helped make the borderlands a much stronger shield. Since the Trolloc Wars the Aes Sedai have done 9/10's of jack all to help stop the Shadow where it matters in the borderlands.

Ive often wondered why Greens and Yellows werent garrisoned along the Blight with the soldiers defending it. It kind of debunks the Greens being the "Battle Ajah"