Sealing the Bore

[MattTaz]

As Moridin freaked a bit watching Avi unravel a Web. I'm going for her to be the 3rd using Callandor and unravelling

the web that made the Bore.

Perhaps Cynfear may give Rand an explanation on how she did it??

[capuga]

Regarding Fains role, I launched the theory years ago that he will destroy Shaidar Haran, and by doing so temporarily weakening the DO, since SH is the DO in a shadowy form. This could give Rand an edge in the final fight, one of several he will need. Not to mention, destroying SH would most likely save Rands life, as I can not see how he could defeat SH.

 

Out of curiosity - why not? I don't think we've seen SH perform any feats that are more impressive than what Rand is capable of.

 

 

 

For starters, this ability SH has shown in his encounters with forsaken, to completely block them from the OP. Granted, this could be something unique for the forsaken, a weakness brought on by the Chosen mark. But if that is the case, why put it in the story? RJ made a big deal of showing this to us, and he never did something like that without a reason.

Also, why even put SH in the story in the first place, if it is not for a greater purpose? So far the only thing he has really done, other than raping Moggy, Mesaana and now Graendal, is freeing Semirhage. Things that could have been accomplished by other characters already in the story.

 

Of course, while the "save rand because he can't beat SH" was the reason I came up with this theory in the first place, it is not as big as the reason i added later - temporarily weakening the DO to give Rand an edge.

And finally, a little nugget from one of RJs Question of the week back in the days...While fain seems focused on killing Rand, given the opportunity his first target would be the DO. Now, SH may only be a shadowy form of the DO, but, a form Fain can actually not only attack, but destroy.

 

Reasonable points. What makes me question this though is that presumably SH doesn't have any powers that the DO doesn't have. So if the DO could just shut down any OP user, how would Rand ever be able to fight him? How was LTT able to place the seals? I think there has to be more to SH's ability than just being capable of being a universal OP off switch.

[herid]

 

 

For starters, this ability SH has shown in his encounters with forsaken, to completely block them from the OP. Granted, this could be something unique for the forsaken, a weakness brought on by the Chosen mark. But if that is the case, why put it in the story? RJ made a big deal of showing this to us, and he never did something like that without a reason.

 

I strongly suspect that SH can shield others too not just the Forsaken. He almost certainly lent a hand in dealing with the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage. There were several of them, all holding Saidar and it's highly doubtful that Elsa alone could have handled them all at once.

[Byzantine279]

I believe someone asked about SH's ability to do that, and the answer was that it would not work against someone not sworn to the DO. Apparently swearing to him gives him significant power over you.

 

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

[herid]

I believe someone asked about SH's ability to do that, and the answer was that it would not work against someone not sworn to the DO.

Sorry, whose answer? Did BS or RJ comment on this somewhere? if not do you have a reference to the thread where this was discussed?

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

[capuga]

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

 

Actually, I believe BS said that she used sedatives on the AS with Warders (so as not to set off the death rage) and ambushed the others. I'm not great with pulling up the various quotes but that is my recollection. She was trusted by the other Aes Sedai, it would not have required Compulsion or SH to quickly ambush a couple of guards whose attention is on maintaining a sheild and their captive.

[herid]

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

 

Actually, I believe BS said that she used sedatives on the AS with Warders (so as not to set off the death rage) and ambushed the others. I'm not great with pulling up the various quotes but that is my recollection. She was trusted by the other Aes Sedai, it would not have required Compulsion or SH to quickly ambush a couple of guards whose attention is on maintaining a sheild and their captive.

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the info. I haven't seen that quote from BS. I'd like to find it. I just always assumed that Elsa would not have been able to deal with them by herself.

 

I do find it ridiculous that apparently only three Aes Sedai (and one of them the weakest of all Aes Sedai) were guarding Semirhage.

[Lacanos]

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

 

Actually, I believe BS said that she used sedatives on the AS with Warders (so as not to set off the death rage) and ambushed the others. I'm not great with pulling up the various quotes but that is my recollection. She was trusted by the other Aes Sedai, it would not have required Compulsion or SH to quickly ambush a couple of guards whose attention is on maintaining a sheild and their captive.

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the info. I haven't seen that quote from BS. I'd like to find it. I just always assumed that Elsa would not have been able to deal with them by herself.

 

I do find it ridiculous that apparently only three Aes Sedai (and one of them the weakest of all Aes Sedai) were guarding Semirhage.

 

It's one of many oddities in balancing the powers of individual characters. Semirhage is considerably weaker than Logain (he would have broken free with less than 6). Nynaeve could hold Logain alone (therefore being as powerful w.r.t shielding as a circle of 6) yet was unable to defeat a circle of two in Ebou Dar. With a weak angreal, we see Elayne thinking that she would be able to channel almost twice as much of the power as Nynaeve, yet with her angreal Moiraine wasn't a match for any of the forsaken. I've got several more examples, I should really make a thread listing them.

 

 

On the topic of a creator-power as a balance, I think people are missing the point. The Dark One is balanced *not* by the Creator, but by the Pattern in this respect, he's an entity of chaos while the pattern gives structure. Therefore, it seems perfectly reasonable that the OP balances the TP. Even if you disagree with that logic, you could equally argue that the OP is the "CP" in terms of a balance - the Creator made it after all?

[capuga]

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

 

Actually, I believe BS said that she used sedatives on the AS with Warders (so as not to set off the death rage) and ambushed the others. I'm not great with pulling up the various quotes but that is my recollection. She was trusted by the other Aes Sedai, it would not have required Compulsion or SH to quickly ambush a couple of guards whose attention is on maintaining a sheild and their captive.

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the info. I haven't seen that quote from BS. I'd like to find it. I just always assumed that Elsa would not have been able to deal with them by herself.

 

I do find it ridiculous that apparently only three Aes Sedai (and one of them the weakest of all Aes Sedai) were guarding Semirhage.

 

Here are the quotes that I could find on Terez's database:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Lexington, KY 10 November 2009 - Stormleader Team reporting

 

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

 

Q. Was the Compulsion which Elza told Semirhage about, Verin's work from after Dumai's Wells, and was it Shaidar Haran who told her about it and to ask Semirhage to remove it?

A. Yes.

 

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

 

Q: You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?

A: Shaidar Haran needs a minion to do most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done.

 

None of which really fit my recollection of Elza using a sedative. So either my memory is faulty or I'm just not very good at finding the quotes.

[herid]

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

 

Actually, I believe BS said that she used sedatives on the AS with Warders (so as not to set off the death rage) and ambushed the others. I'm not great with pulling up the various quotes but that is my recollection. She was trusted by the other Aes Sedai, it would not have required Compulsion or SH to quickly ambush a couple of guards whose attention is on maintaining a sheild and their captive.

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the info. I haven't seen that quote from BS. I'd like to find it. I just always assumed that Elsa would not have been able to deal with them by herself.

 

I do find it ridiculous that apparently only three Aes Sedai (and one of them the weakest of all Aes Sedai) were guarding Semirhage.

 

It's one of many oddities in balancing the powers of individual characters. Semirhage is considerably weaker than Logain (he would have broken free with less than 6). Nynaeve could hold Logain alone (therefore being as powerful w.r.t shielding as a circle of 6) yet was unable to defeat a circle of two in Ebou Dar. With a weak angreal, we see Elayne thinking that she would be able to channel almost twice as much of the power as Nynaeve, yet with her angreal Moiraine wasn't a match for any of the forsaken. I've got several more examples, I should really make a thread listing them.

 

 

 

still, only three to guard a Forsaken (clearly a bare minimum to maintain the shield) seems beyond reckless to me. what if one of them gets sick or distracted or there is an attack from outside? or some other kind of other emergency like a bubble of evil?

[herid]

herid, she used compulsion, I forgot if it wa son them or on other aes sedai, but the end result is she did not take on a group alone, she either had them under her control after ambushing them one at a time, or she brought her own group to help.

I don't understand. you are saying Elsa compelled all of the Aes Sedai who were guarding Semirhage? I find that pretty difficult to believe. Possible I guess but it would require a lot of planning and preparation as she would need to take them one at at time before the actual attack. What evidence is there that she compelled them?

 

Actually, I believe BS said that she used sedatives on the AS with Warders (so as not to set off the death rage) and ambushed the others. I'm not great with pulling up the various quotes but that is my recollection. She was trusted by the other Aes Sedai, it would not have required Compulsion or SH to quickly ambush a couple of guards whose attention is on maintaining a sheild and their captive.

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the info. I haven't seen that quote from BS. I'd like to find it. I just always assumed that Elsa would not have been able to deal with them by herself.

 

I do find it ridiculous that apparently only three Aes Sedai (and one of them the weakest of all Aes Sedai) were guarding Semirhage.

 

Here are the quotes that I could find on Terez's database:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Lexington, KY 10 November 2009 - Stormleader Team reporting

 

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

 

Q. Was the Compulsion which Elza told Semirhage about, Verin's work from after Dumai's Wells, and was it Shaidar Haran who told her about it and to ask Semirhage to remove it?

A. Yes.

 

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

 

Q: You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?

A: Shaidar Haran needs a minion to do most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done.

 

None of which really fit my recollection of Elza using a sedative. So either my memory is faulty or I'm just not very good at finding the quotes.

Thanks a lot! do you have a link to Terez's database?

[capuga]

Do you have a link to Terez's database?

 

It's in her sig. Let's see if I can get a link to work:

 

Terez's quote database

 

It's a pretty impressive database that she has put together.

[moratcorlm]

still, only three to guard a Forsaken (clearly a bare minimum to maintain the shield) seems beyond reckless to me. what if one of them gets sick or distracted or there is an attack from outside? or some other kind of other emergency like a bubble of evil?

You raise some good points here, but regarding the shield strength itself, Jordan has said that same-sex shields are much harder to break than cross-sex shields. So, three women could hold Semirhage or Nynaeve or Lanfear, while they couldn't hold Rand or Demandred, etc.

[KrisAnton]

There should have been an order in place to immediately still Semirage in case anything happened. There was plenty of experience there from dealing with Moghedian and Asmodian for them to have known better.

 

The purpose of this however, from the point of view from the Pattern, seems to be that Rand needed to access the TRue Power in order to come about to his new perspective. The forces of the Shadow seem to be doing the will of the Pattern, whether they know it or not. Of course. It was a toss up as to whether ot not Rand would have had his revelation atop Dragonmount, but it seems obvious tome that Rand needed to touch the Shadow in order to feel it's true destructive nature.

 

For the record, i believe that Rand could now access the True Source without succumbing to it's addictive and vile consequences. Rand all but admits this in Far Madding and at the White Tower amidst all those Aes Sedai. To him, the True Power is nothing more than a means to an end to him. I do think though that accessing it would put him at risk of following the will of the Dark One, but Rand is probably ta'veren enough to come out on top in the end.

[Calderis]

The TP essentially IS the dark one. How can you use a part of his own power to stop him?

[garion]

Just throwing this out there, but isn't there a prophecy where it says how the land is connected to the dragon. Well couldn't the Bore bee compared to Rand's original wound and so when he breaks the seals and goes to the DO and starts to bleed on the rocks is to use both halves of the OP in concert to heal the wound thus sealing the Bore again. Or having Alivia make some connection between the Bore and the wound so that if/when Rand dies so does the DO.