Sealing the Bore

[Ashandarei]

Disclaimer: So let me start by saying that while I came up with this theory myself, I wouldn't be the least surprised if someone else or multiple others already came up with this idea. I did do my best to search through the "Theorylands Interview Database" to see if anyone asked about this as well as searching these forums(ToM & General WoT) to check if there were threads already covering this subject. While I found many skirting this idea, none actually touched on it.

 

Theory: That being said, I think that it will not be the One Power but the True Power, as in that which flows from the Dark One, which will be needed to seal the Bore made in the AoL. Also, if the OP is used, it will be used in addition to the TP and of course using both halves, saidin and saidar.

 

Supporting evidence: The first and most obvious is that the TP is what sounds like the essence of the DO and using his own essence to seal him away prevents the risk of tainting one or both halves of the Source. Secondly, the original seals for the DO's prison were made using the OP and they are failing (arguably because only saidin was used instead of both saidin/saidar but my point stands nonetheless). Thirdly, Herid Fel's comment about clearing away the rubble and Rand's current intent to destroy the seals makes sense if the seal to the DO's prison must be of the TP not the OP since the current OP seals would be a weakness in the wall as a whole if allowed to remain.

 

Speculation using the theory: For those who may agree with this idea, I think that Rand himself wouldn't be nearly strong enough to seal the prison without an angreal. What angreal you say? The sa'angreal Callandor. It has been shown to have no buffer against the DO's taint. That could easily translate to it's being a possible conduit for the True Power as well. It would also explain why it's repeatedly called unstable (in so many words) for a man to use, possibly even with two women guiding the flows (although i can't remember off the top of my head if there's anywhere in the series that it specifically says that even with two women it would be unpredictable). [edit] It's lack of stability could arise from the fact that it was originally designed intentionally or accidentally to wield the TP. [/edit]

 

Final Disclaimer: Sorry if I missed some obvious declaration by RJ or BS or a relevant authority on the series stating that only the OP can be used to seal the DO away. Also I apologize in advance for any ignorance of mine to a well-known fact or facts on the forum, I haven't been to dragonmount in FOREVER and even way back when when I did it was a very brief active period. Hope this provides some tasty food for thought otherwise!

[aball]

Shouldn't the DO be able to cut off Rand's access to the TP?

[Lacanos]

Out of the three options, I think it's the most likely. However, I'm more leaning towards either the DO being defeated permanently, Fain's power being used somehow, or something to do with the crazy power of friendship taveren effect.

[Ashandarei]

Shouldn't the DO be able to cut off Rand's access to the TP?

 

Possibly, but I feel like he would have done so the moment Rand tried using it against Semirhage or soon after. I think that Rand isn't provided access to the TP, he gets it through his connection with Moridin and for Rand not to have it, the DO would have to cut off his Nae'blis- Moridin/Ishamael, his number one servant, from the TP which he would be reluctant to do.

[herid]

Disclaimer: So let me start by saying that while I came up with this theory myself, I wouldn't be the least surprised if someone else or multiple others already came up with this idea. I did do my best to search through the "Theorylands Interview Database" to see if anyone asked about this as well as searching these forums(ToM & General WoT) to check if there were threads already covering this subject. While I found many skirting this idea, none actually touched on it.

 

Theory: That being said, I think that it will not be the One Power but the True Power, as in that which flows from the Dark One, which will be needed to seal the Bore made in the AoL. Also, if the OP is used, it will be used in addition to the TP and of course using both halves, saidin and saidar.

 

Supporting evidence: The first and most obvious is that the TP is what sounds like the essence of the DO and using his own essence to seal him away prevents the risk of tainting one or both halves of the Source. Secondly, the original seals for the DO's prison were made using the OP and they are failing (arguably because only saidin was used instead of both saidin/saidar but my point stands nonetheless). Thirdly, Herid Fel's comment about clearing away the rubble and Rand's current intent to destroy the seals makes sense if the seal to the DO's prison must be of the TP not the OP since the current OP seals would be a weakness in the wall as a whole if allowed to remain.

 

Speculation using the theory: For those who may agree with this idea, I think that Rand himself wouldn't be nearly strong enough to seal the prison without an angreal. What angreal you say? The sa'angreal Callandor. It has been shown to have no buffer against the DO's taint. That could easily translate to it's being a possible conduit for the True Power as well. It would also explain why it's repeatedly called unstable (in so many words) for a man to use, possibly even with two women guiding the flows (although i can't remember off the top of my head if there's anywhere in the series that it specifically says that even with two women it would be unpredictable).

 

Final Disclaimer: Sorry if I missed some obvious declaration by RJ or BS or a relevant authority on the series stating that only the OP can be used to seal the DO away. Also I apologize in advance for any ignorance of mine to a well-known fact or facts on the forum, I haven't been to dragonmount in FOREVER and even way back when when I did it was a very brief active period. Hope this provides some tasty food for thought otherwise!

 

The idea of Rand using TP again in particular to seal the bore has been banded around a lot on this forum. Personally, I'm thoroughly convinced that it's wrong. as you say TP is the essence of the DO. even if he could the new Rand will never use it again, he'll never even consider using it. it might be a cool concept but it would not make sense story-wise. He used it only once without understanding what it was and it almost turned him to the DO. but that was clearly a setup by the DO. Rand will not make the same mistake twice.

 

You are right that something has to touch the DO in the sealing process and using saidin or saidar or both sounds like a bad idea based on what happened in the past. I believe that Fain's power will be used instead. either from him directly or by spilling Rand's blood from the wound from Fain's dagger. But even if something else will play out, I'm convinced that Rand will never again touch TP.

 

P.S. I can't vote in your poll as I don't believe in any of the options presented.

[Ashandarei]

Disclaimer: So let me start by saying that while I came up with this theory myself, I wouldn't be the least surprised if someone else or multiple others already came up with this idea. I did do my best to search through the "Theorylands Interview Database" to see if anyone asked about this as well as searching these forums(ToM & General WoT) to check if there were threads already covering this subject. While I found many skirting this idea, none actually touched on it.

 

Theory: That being said, I think that it will not be the One Power but the True Power, as in that which flows from the Dark One, which will be needed to seal the Bore made in the AoL. Also, if the OP is used, it will be used in addition to the TP and of course using both halves, saidin and saidar.

 

Supporting evidence: The first and most obvious is that the TP is what sounds like the essence of the DO and using his own essence to seal him away prevents the risk of tainting one or both halves of the Source. Secondly, the original seals for the DO's prison were made using the OP and they are failing (arguably because only saidin was used instead of both saidin/saidar but my point stands nonetheless). Thirdly, Herid Fel's comment about clearing away the rubble and Rand's current intent to destroy the seals makes sense if the seal to the DO's prison must be of the TP not the OP since the current OP seals would be a weakness in the wall as a whole if allowed to remain.

 

Speculation using the theory: For those who may agree with this idea, I think that Rand himself wouldn't be nearly strong enough to seal the prison without an angreal. What angreal you say? The sa'angreal Callandor. It has been shown to have no buffer against the DO's taint. That could easily translate to it's being a possible conduit for the True Power as well. It would also explain why it's repeatedly called unstable (in so many words) for a man to use, possibly even with two women guiding the flows (although i can't remember off the top of my head if there's anywhere in the series that it specifically says that even with two women it would be unpredictable).

 

Final Disclaimer: Sorry if I missed some obvious declaration by RJ or BS or a relevant authority on the series stating that only the OP can be used to seal the DO away. Also I apologize in advance for any ignorance of mine to a well-known fact or facts on the forum, I haven't been to dragonmount in FOREVER and even way back when when I did it was a very brief active period. Hope this provides some tasty food for thought otherwise!

 

The idea of Rand using TP again in particular to seal the bore has been banded around a lot on this forum. Personally, I'm thoroughly convinced that it's wrong. as you say TP is the essence of the DO. even if he could the new Rand will never use it again, he'll never even consider using it. it might be a cool concept but it would not make sense story-wise. He used it only once without understanding what it was and it almost turned him to the DO. but that was clearly a setup by the DO. Rand will not make the same mistake twice.

 

You are right that something has to touch the DO in the sealing process and using saidin or saidar or both sounds like a bad idea based on what happened in the past. I believe that Fain's power will be used instead. either from him directly or by spilling Rand's blood from the wound from Fain's dagger. But even if something else will play out, I'm convinced that Rand will ever again touch TP.

 

The Fain's power idea is an interesting option D, and it is supported by the fact that after killing Rand, Fain was planning to take revenge on the DO himself (if I remember right). The mechanic for its use would have to be fairly carefully designed though, I can't think of a good way to do it myself. One step of the process definitely could be Rand's blood w/ Fain's dagger as you mentioned. Hmmm...

 

[edit] Fain's power option added :) [/edit]

[randsc]

Rand will seal the bore by stuffing Egwene down it, head first.

 

And there was much rejoicing.

[herid]

 

 

The Fain's power idea is an interesting option D, and it is supported by the fact that after killing Rand, Fain was planning to take revenge on the DO himself (if I remember right). The mechanic for its use would have to be fairly carefully designed though, I can't think of a good way to do it myself. One step of the process definitely could be Rand's blood w/ Fain's dagger as you mentioned. Hmmm...

 

Edit- Fain's power option added :]

Thanks for adding the Fain power option and also for including OP in it. I believe that saidar, saidin and Fain's power will be used as they were used when Rand cleansed saidin (probably in a very similar way).

[Ashandarei]

Rand will seal the bore by stuffing Egwene down it, head first.

 

And there was much rejoicing.

 

Truly.

[Mats Spare Hat]

The secret ingredient is Aiel spit.

[RedRaider]

Disclaimer: So let me start by saying that while I came up with this theory myself, I wouldn't be the least surprised if someone else or multiple others already came up with this idea. I did do my best to search through the "Theorylands Interview Database" to see if anyone asked about this as well as searching these forums(ToM & General WoT) to check if there were threads already covering this subject. While I found many skirting this idea, none actually touched on it.

 

Theory: That being said, I think that it will not be the One Power but the True Power, as in that which flows from the Dark One, which will be needed to seal the Bore made in the AoL. Also, if the OP is used, it will be used in addition to the TP and of course using both halves, saidin and saidar.

 

Supporting evidence: The first and most obvious is that the TP is what sounds like the essence of the DO and using his own essence to seal him away prevents the risk of tainting one or both halves of the Source. Secondly, the original seals for the DO's prison were made using the OP and they are failing (arguably because only saidin was used instead of both saidin/saidar but my point stands nonetheless). Thirdly, Herid Fel's comment about clearing away the rubble and Rand's current intent to destroy the seals makes sense if the seal to the DO's prison must be of the TP not the OP since the current OP seals would be a weakness in the wall as a whole if allowed to remain.

 

Speculation using the theory: For those who may agree with this idea, I think that Rand himself wouldn't be nearly strong enough to seal the prison without an angreal. What angreal you say? The sa'angreal Callandor. It has been shown to have no buffer against the DO's taint. That could easily translate to it's being a possible conduit for the True Power as well. It would also explain why it's repeatedly called unstable (in so many words) for a man to use, possibly even with two women guiding the flows (although i can't remember off the top of my head if there's anywhere in the series that it specifically says that even with two women it would be unpredictable). [edit] It's lack of stability could arise from the fact that it was originally designed intentionally or accidentally to wield the TP. [/edit]

 

Final Disclaimer: Sorry if I missed some obvious declaration by RJ or BS or a relevant authority on the series stating that only the OP can be used to seal the DO away. Also I apologize in advance for any ignorance of mine to a well-known fact or facts on the forum, I haven't been to dragonmount in FOREVER and even way back when when I did it was a very brief active period. Hope this provides some tasty food for thought otherwise!

 

The DO was bound by the creator. I would speculate that the DO has the power to destroy (TP) and the creator has the power to create (maybe TP or a different version of it). I'm thinking Brandon was selected certainly because he is a capable writer, but also because this is a very similar senario to the Mistborn Trilogy. Rand will seal the bore with the creators power. Some have speculated that he's already latched onto it. Thats why crops grow and flowers bloom as he passes.

[blazetheearth]

Rand will seal the bore by stuffing Egwene down it, head first.

 

And there was much rejoicing.

 

Amen Brother!!

 

but lacking this option, I had to vote for Gollum...oops, I mean Fain making a win in the LB possible.

[Phoenix8514]

Out of the three options, I think it's the most likely. However, I'm more leaning towards either the DO being defeated permanently, Fain's power being used somehow, or something to do with the crazy power of friendship taveren effect.

 

I also lean towards the DO going away permanently. Since the beginning I've always wondered if the same cycle happens over and over again, why did RJ decide to give us this story? I have no idea how it will happen though. So resealing is entirely possible. I just think it will be permanent. Also, if the DO is resealed I don't think it will involve the True Power. The True Power is essentially the DO, so I don't think you can use it to seal him away. Besides he can always cut off access.

[maradon]

I voted for One Power only, as that is what the original is made from (power of the creator). However I think that Fain and his crazy logoth power have a key role to play as has been foreshadowed with Rands wounds through the whole series. Any chance of a Fains Power plus One Power option?

[jemron]

Why is everyone SO sure that Rand did touch the TP? Is it possible it's a red herring? Maybe Semi and Lews Therin both THOUGHT it was the TP, but it may have actually been something else entirely. Something equally as powerful/addictive, but from the "pure essence" of the Creator instead of the DO?? I know it's a stretch, but is there any proof that it was the TP Rand used in TGS?

 

I think the dark aura could possibly be his ta'veren "one with the land" effect going dark BECAUSE of his dismal attitude, and not from TP usage...

 

I dunno. I'm sure I'm grasping at straws here, but I actually do believe that the TP will play a vital role in helping Rand re-seal the bore correctly. If Rand is even the one to do it. The Creator may have to intervene to get the prison properly re-built, rather than just "sealed" with glue/OP.

[Majsju]

None of the above. Granted, channeling (OP only, Rands TP-days are over) will of course play a part, but the deciding factor will be something else.

[randsc]

None of the above. Granted, channeling (OP only, Rands TP-days are over) will of course play a part, but the deciding factor will be something else.

 

^^^^ This.

 

Hopefully, that something else is Egwene. If she won't fill the entire bore, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing Elayne and Faile stuffed down after her. And Gawyn, of course, hopefully after he has been torn limb-from-limb by trollocs.

 

But more likely, it won't be channeling or annoying twits that plug the bore.

 

I'm wondering if the Pattern won't simply bend itself around Rand to the point the bore is sealed. Similarly to what he implied he could do to Caddy if she didn't behave.

[Whizbang]

I do not believe there is a third power (ie the "Creator's Power"). I believe in respect to channeling, there is the OP and the TP. This book has a very strong theme of a yin-yang balance in this series. Male balances female. Light balances dark. So, the OP is the balance to the TP. The OP IS the power of the creator.

 

BUT!!!!

 

As Rand/LTT has said, it won't be strength in the OP that will win the day. That was why he was against the Choedan Kal in the AoL. He didn't think that more power was the solution. This is evidenced by the fact that the hundred companions were all male. Males cannot form circles without females. So, how did 100 independant channelers make enough power to seal the bore? I think LTT did it all by his lonesome, with the 100 there just to settle down the rowdy trollocs and forsaken. The backlash/taint was not a "spell" cast by the DO. The taint IS the dark one. The taint is the force of the DO's will against the purely male shield. There is nothing to buffer the DO. But, as evidenced by Callandor, linking the male and female can create that buffer. The male half protects the female half and the female protects the male half.

 

The reason why people in the AoL didn't realize it was the OP was because A: They didn't know what to look for and B: perhaps the weaves are so vast and complex that they cease to be weaves and are simply the OP in it's truest form (ie creation itself). Or maybe they are not vast, but minute and delicate, but circle the globe.

 

I believe the answer has to be the OP. Else why make the Dragon so strong in it if he will just be using some other power? Maybe there is an element of combined strength of will of humanity or some other theme of peace. The Aiel's Way of The Leaf gives this theory support in that in an age of legends, where mortals were truly mighty and powerful beings, a life of non-violence is seen as honorable and powerful. So, violence begets violence. Perhaps Rand needs to figure out a way to stop the violence long enough through the OP for the strength of humanity itself to cause the bore to seal (ie, the pattern is humanity and so has that power).

 

Well, I seem to have travelled a bit from my original point. Anyway, I think randsc's comment was on to something. The pattern (humanity) will need to reject the DO. Only by rejecting him will the bore be sealed. This has further support by all those little scenes where farmers pack up and head north without some noble calling them to arms.

[Hopefire]

I'm making the assumption that Jordan had figured out how he would close the Bore when he got the series started. As the series was initially supposed to be much shorter, early books should contain information and clue bats regarding how the Bore will be closed; these may appear to be plots and/or features of the world that went nowhere. The most obvious such item is Singing.

 

The first four books are jam-packed with it. The Tinker's search for their song. Loial singing the Green Man's tree to health, as well as all the other times he sung wood. The songs sung by the Aiel in the Age of Legends to make trees grow. Perrin's early interest in finding a way to resist the Dark One without fighting ties in as well. The Pattern is a living thing; the Bore could be thought of as wound on the Pattern.

 

I think that it'll be sealed through being Sung shot.

 

I'm also strongly of the opinion that the True Power will have no part in the Sealing. Fain may well play a part, but not the True Power.

[Majsju]

Regarding Fains role, I launched the theory years ago that he will destroy Shaidar Haran, and by doing so temporarily weakening the DO, since SH is the DO in a shadowy form. This could give Rand an edge in the final fight, one of several he will need. Not to mention, destroying SH would most likely save Rands life, as I can not see how he could defeat SH.

[capuga]

Regarding Fains role, I launched the theory years ago that he will destroy Shaidar Haran, and by doing so temporarily weakening the DO, since SH is the DO in a shadowy form. This could give Rand an edge in the final fight, one of several he will need. Not to mention, destroying SH would most likely save Rands life, as I can not see how he could defeat SH.

 

Out of curiosity - why not? I don't think we've seen SH perform any feats that are more impressive than what Rand is capable of.

 

In regards to the original post - I don't believe that Rand will use the TP to seal the Dark One. I don't think Zen Rand would touch it anymore plus I've never thought it made sense since I don't see how the Dark One can be sealed by the essence of the Dark One. Although I, like the original poster, believe that Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin (which is why he saw Moridin's face just before grabbing the TP) and that the Dark One was unaware of it. So I believe that it is theoretically possible that Rand could quickly use the TP against the Dark One without him realizing it for a moment.

 

In regards to Callandor - the flaw was a manufacturing defect and, therefore, not anything to do with the TP. However, Min's continuing research seems to indicate that there are other oddities about the sa'angreal as well. Such as using it leaves one open to being taken over by the Dark One (don't remember the exact phrasing off the top of my head). The rough draft version of my crazy theory is that Rand will use Callandor to invite the Dark One into himself and then Alivia will help him die. Its just a rough draft because there are a few holes in the theory but its something that has stuck in my head since Min brought up that oddity about Callandor.

[Morsker]

I voted for Fain's power, which I think Callandor will allow the leader of the circle to draw from Rand's blood. The black hand is Rand dying from this.

[herid]

Although I, like the original poster, believe that Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin (which is why he saw Moridin's face just before grabbing the TP) and that the Dark One was unaware of it. So I believe that it is theoretically possible that Rand could quickly use the TP against the Dark One without him realizing it for a moment.

I know that many people believe that Rand used TP via his link with Moridin but I'm not convinced on this. He has seen Moridin's face several times before when channeling saidin. so him seeing Moridin's face could just be a byproduct of him channeling something. And him channneling TP could just be a direct bait from the DO that let Rand touch TP in an attempt to turn him.

[capuga]

Although I, like the original poster, believe that Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin (which is why he saw Moridin's face just before grabbing the TP) and that the Dark One was unaware of it. So I believe that it is theoretically possible that Rand could quickly use the TP against the Dark One without him realizing it for a moment.

I know that many people believe that Rand used TP via his link with Moridin but I'm not convinced on this. He has seen Moridin's face several times before when channeling saidin. so him seeing Moridin's face could just be a byproduct of him channeling something. And him channneling TP could just be a direct bait from the DO that let Rand touch TP in an attempt to turn him.

 

I think I am in the minority with my belief. I think most of the people on these boards believe that Semirhage's escape and Rand's channeling of the TP was a deliberate plan of the DO. But to me that scene has always read as Rand reaching through the link with Moridin.

[Majsju]

Regarding Fains role, I launched the theory years ago that he will destroy Shaidar Haran, and by doing so temporarily weakening the DO, since SH is the DO in a shadowy form. This could give Rand an edge in the final fight, one of several he will need. Not to mention, destroying SH would most likely save Rands life, as I can not see how he could defeat SH.

 

Out of curiosity - why not? I don't think we've seen SH perform any feats that are more impressive than what Rand is capable of.

 

 

 

For starters, this ability SH has shown in his encounters with forsaken, to completely block them from the OP. Granted, this could be something unique for the forsaken, a weakness brought on by the Chosen mark. But if that is the case, why put it in the story? RJ made a big deal of showing this to us, and he never did something like that without a reason.

Also, why even put SH in the story in the first place, if it is not for a greater purpose? So far the only thing he has really done, other than raping Moggy, Mesaana and now Graendal, is freeing Semirhage. Things that could have been accomplished by other characters already in the story.

 

Of course, while the "save rand because he can't beat SH" was the reason I came up with this theory in the first place, it is not as big as the reason i added later - temporarily weakening the DO to give Rand an edge.

And finally, a little nugget from one of RJs Question of the week back in the days...While fain seems focused on killing Rand, given the opportunity his first target would be the DO. Now, SH may only be a shadowy form of the DO, but, a form Fain can actually not only attack, but destroy.