The Red Eagle Banner

[Finnssss22]

If we look at it another way though....

 

Aemon's field

Emond's field

 

Aemon al Caar al Thorin

Caar-Thorin

Cauthon

 

Always made sense to me as I know my family name is an amalgamation of a much longer one in much the same way.

[Terez]

I like it.

 

Also, I'm thinking Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. It's the kind of thing they'll probably never tell us, but I bet it's in the notes.

 

I wonder if he has past life memories. He wanted to be called Guaire when they escaped Tar Valon incognito, but Siuan convinced him it was a fool's choice. He doesn't believe Rand cleansed saidin and apparently still believes he is the Dragon Reborn.

 

Now I wonder if Logain and Tuon are going to fight over Justice.

[FarShainMael]

I still find it interesting how Perrin raised the Red Eagle Banner, however after another more recent reread of EOTW i remembered that Min saw the Red Eagle around Mat, rather than a Red Hand.. which was seen around Elayne.. Maybe another reread of the earlier books is imminent..

 

Indeed. Have a look at EncWoT:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/viewings.html

 

TEotW15: Mat - A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a

horn, and a laughing face.

 

TGH24: Elayne - She will have to share her husband with two other women and she

will be a queen. A severed hand, not hers.

 

Also TEotW15: Rand - a bloody hand and white-hot iron.

 

Possibly Mat (Red Hand) and Perrin (Blacksmith), i.e. the three ta'veren.

[Mr Ares]

Also, Brandon seems to have hinted in the direction of Leane's innocent line about Perrin putting on a crown and speaking High Chant being foreshadowing for AMOL.

Good call. I always kinda wondered about that myself. There was obviously more than one King of Manetheren during its' 1000 years. Mat being of the blood of Aemon while Perrin being of the blood of another King of Manetheren is not unreasonable.

It is, if you think about it - over that length of time, with a population like that, bloodlines from Manetheren would either be common to all native TR folk, or extinct. Thus if Mat is Aemon's descendant, so is Perrin, and Tam, and Cenn Buie, and everyone else.

[moratcorlm]

The Two Rivers holds the most significance because that is where all of Manetheren was concentrated and finally backed up to in the Trolloc Wars.

It is where the Capital was and their last stand came at a place called Aemon's field or as it is known today, Emond's Field.

The rest of the country was scattered to the four winds with the Two Rivers the only place where the bloodlines remained strong and whole.

It has nothing to do with what story they were told.

Absolutely none of which was remembered in Two Rivers traditions, so yes, it absolutely had everything to do with Moiraine's story.

 

You still haven't answered: why not Farashalle?

[Finnssss22]

The Two Rivers holds the most significance because that is where all of Manetheren was concentrated and finally backed up to in the Trolloc Wars.

It is where the Capital was and their last stand came at a place called Aemon's field or as it is known today, Emond's Field.

The rest of the country was scattered to the four winds with the Two Rivers the only place where the bloodlines remained strong and whole.

It has nothing to do with what story they were told.

Absolutely none of which was remembered in Two Rivers traditions, so yes, it absolutely had everything to do with Moiraine's story.

 

You still haven't answered: why not Farashalle?

 

Was Farashalle's Capital located in what is now the Two Rivers? No it wasn't, Farashalle itself was closer to Whitebridge than to Emond's Field.

Has any nation that claimed possession of the Two Rivers area over the last 2000 years done anything with it?

No, they have pretty much left it alone and let the people farm their land.

Very few have left the area and very few have come to the area in the last 2000 years and has held very little or no strategic importance over that time due to how secluded the area is.

Oh and the bloody Capital of flaming Manetheren was right there!

Also, you say none of the traditions of Manetheren are remembered or continued, what about the al'Caar's and the al'Seen's and the al'Thor's and the al'Vere's or the al'Meara's, along with a whole bloody list of Manetheren sounding names?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where nations other than Manetheren used such names in that manor.

 

So quite obviously the folk of the Two Rivers are direct descendants of Manetheren and not of any of these other nations that claimed the Two Rivers pretty much by drawing a line on a map and not much more.

 

What sounds like it holds juuuust a little bit more significance, that the area was a secluded farm land of Farashalle and later Andor OR that it was the site of the capital and center of one of the greatest Nations in the world after the breaking?

Hmmmmm...tough one there.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Red Eagle banner represents a double insult to Elayne. First as a regent of Andor and second as an Aes Sedai. I doubt she would tolerate a re-emergence of a Manetherian nation simply because a couple of inbred hick farmers out in the land want to rebuild a destroyed past they can barely recall.

[moratcorlm]

Was Farashalle's Capital located in what is now the Two Rivers? No it wasn't, Farashalle itself was closer to Whitebridge than to Emond's Field.

Has any nation that claimed possession of the Two Rivers area over the last 2000 years done anything with it?

No, they have pretty much left it alone and let the people farm their land.

Very few have left the area and very few have come to the area in the last 2000 years and has held very little or no strategic importance over that time due to how secluded the area is.

Oh and the bloody Capital of flaming Manetheren was right there!

Also, you say none of the traditions of Manetheren are remembered or continued, what about the al'Caar's and the al'Seen's and the al'Thor's and the al'Vere's or the al'Meara's, along with a whole bloody list of Manetheren sounding names?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where nations other than Manetheren used such names in that manor.

 

So quite obviously the folk of the Two Rivers are direct descendants of Manetheren and not of any of these other nations that claimed the Two Rivers pretty much by drawing a line on a map and not much more.

 

What sounds like it holds juuuust a little bit more significance, that the area was a secluded farm land of Farashalle and later Andor OR that it was the site of the capital and center of one of the greatest Nations in the world after the breaking?

Hmmmmm...tough one there.

Even if all of that were true, and it isn't, not a single one of the Two Rivers hicks knew a single one of those facts. You know why? It's been two thousand years. Give me a break. Do you know what polity owned the land you lived on two thousand years ago? Are you itching to bring it back, like Mussolini's New Roman Empire? It's like a modern-day Mongolian deciding that things were better under one of the greatest empires in the world and deciding to invade China in the name of the Great Khan. Of course, that's a bad analogy, since Manetheren ended three or four times further back than the Yuan Dynasty did. How about a Macedonian stitching a flag of the sunburst of Alexander and going off to conquer India? Dishonest madness. Quixotic at best. But dangerous to established order in any case.

 

As far as what isn't true: the ruins of Manetheren aren't in the Two Rivers, but in the mountains about them, as not a single duopotamian ever knew. We know that Andor had in the past taxed the Two Rivers, as presumably Farashalle had before it, both for far longer than Manetheren did. They didn't bother to do anything more because there wasn't anything more to be done. The land is being used about as well as it can be, supporting a few thousand farmers who specialize in certain crops. Why change it?

[randsc]

The Red Eagle banner represents a double insult to Elayne. First as a regent of Andor and second as an Aes Sedai. I doubt she would tolerate a re-emergence of a Manetherian nation simply because a couple of inbred hick farmers out in the land want to rebuild a destroyed past they can barely recall.

 

Inbred hick farmers have as much right to self-determination as snotty, entitled princesses.

 

I've said it before, and I stand by it: Never mind the Dragons and rapid-fire crossbows. I want to see Mat invent the guillotine.

 

Although I suppose the Dragons and automatic crossbows will be useful in opertaing the guillotine at maximum efficiency.

 

What tradition are the Two Rivers people defending? Not just a "bedtime story." A functioning representative democracy in a world of undeserving nobles and proto-despots.

[Finnssss22]

Was Farashalle's Capital located in what is now the Two Rivers? No it wasn't, Farashalle itself was closer to Whitebridge than to Emond's Field.

Has any nation that claimed possession of the Two Rivers area over the last 2000 years done anything with it?

No, they have pretty much left it alone and let the people farm their land.

Very few have left the area and very few have come to the area in the last 2000 years and has held very little or no strategic importance over that time due to how secluded the area is.

Oh and the bloody Capital of flaming Manetheren was right there!

Also, you say none of the traditions of Manetheren are remembered or continued, what about the al'Caar's and the al'Seen's and the al'Thor's and the al'Vere's or the al'Meara's, along with a whole bloody list of Manetheren sounding names?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where nations other than Manetheren used such names in that manor.

 

So quite obviously the folk of the Two Rivers are direct descendants of Manetheren and not of any of these other nations that claimed the Two Rivers pretty much by drawing a line on a map and not much more.

 

What sounds like it holds juuuust a little bit more significance, that the area was a secluded farm land of Farashalle and later Andor OR that it was the site of the capital and center of one of the greatest Nations in the world after the breaking?

Hmmmmm...tough one there.

Even if all of that were true, and it isn't, not a single one of the Two Rivers hicks knew a single one of those facts. You know why? It's been two thousand years. Give me a break. Do you know what polity owned the land you lived on two thousand years ago? Are you itching to bring it back, like Mussolini's New Roman Empire? It's like a modern-day Mongolian deciding that things were better under one of the greatest empires in the world and deciding to invade China in the name of the Great Khan. Of course, that's a bad analogy, since Manetheren ended three or four times further back than the Yuan Dynasty did. How about a Macedonian stitching a flag of the sunburst of Alexander and going off to conquer India? Dishonest madness. Quixotic at best. But dangerous to established order in any case.

 

As far as what isn't true: the ruins of Manetheren aren't in the Two Rivers, but in the mountains about them, as not a single duopotamian ever knew. We know that Andor had in the past taxed the Two Rivers, as presumably Farashalle had before it, both for far longer than Manetheren did. They didn't bother to do anything more because there wasn't anything more to be done. The land is being used about as well as it can be, supporting a few thousand farmers who specialize in certain crops. Why change it?

 

 

A good story you almost have there. A shame though that it wasn't Perrin, Mat or anyone else from Emond's Field for that matter that first raised the Red Eagle banner.

It was in fact first raised at Watch Hill and that was even before Faile met up with them.

 

I don't even know why this is such a big deal for you.

I mean seriously, it's something we are informed of right off the bat and confirmed shortly after by Mat and his unknowing utterance of the Manetheren battle cry.

 

You're right though, Moiraine should of told them the epic and rather legendary tales of when they were all Farashalle farmers.

[akira.taylor]

The Red Eagle banner represents a double insult to Elayne. First as a regent of Andor and second as an Aes Sedai. I doubt she would tolerate a re-emergence of a Manetherian nation simply because a couple of inbred hick farmers out in the land want to rebuild a destroyed past they can barely recall.

 

Eh? First, regent of Andor? I believe her title is 'queen'. Second, it really isn't an insult (just an act of rebelion). Third, why would it be an insult to her as an Aes Sedai?

[moratcorlm]

A shame though that it wasn't Perrin, Mat or anyone else from Emond's Field for that matter that first raised the Red Eagle banner.

It was in fact first raised at Watch Hill and that was even before Faile met up with them.

Well over a year after Moiraine told her story. Presumably there is some intercourse between the three villages of the Two Rivers, yes? I mean, if Watch Hill knows all about the heraldry of Manetheren and Emond's Field has never even heard the name, I'm not really sure how that helps your position at all.

You're right though, Moiraine should of told them the epic and rather legendary tales of when they were all Farashalle farmers.

That would certainly be more in keeping with their true heritage. "A thousand years of sheep." (Well, twenty-two hundred now, and in all probability they were sheep farmers when Manetheren collected their taxes, too, but there was a big fancy city way over that way once)

What tradition are the Two Rivers people defending? Not just a "bedtime story." A functioning representative democracy in a world of undeserving nobles and proto-despots.

They did have that tradition, yes, before they sold themselves into the service of House Aybara, who in turn sold them to bigger and better aristocrats. I guess at least when Elayne sells them to Tuon in turn they'll have turned the clock back almost halfway to Manetheren.

 

Which was a monarchy. Oops.

[Suttree]

Oh and the bloody Capital of flaming Manetheren was right there!

 

No it was in the Mountains of Mist

 

Also, you say none of the traditions of Manetheren are remembered or continued, what about the al'Caar's and the al'Seen's and the al'Thor's and the al'Vere's or the al'Meara's, along with a whole bloody list of Manetheren sounding names?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where nations other than Manetheren used such names in that manor.

 

Malkier? al'Lan, al'Akir

[randsc]

Wouldn't it be great (at least if you are not an, "Elayne and Andor!" enthusiast) to see the denizens of the Two Rivers rise up and say, "What gives you the right to decide our future in a smoke-filled room private sitting chamber? We'll decide for ourselves how we wish to be governed. You, Andor, abdicated all claim to our loyalty through your neglect. And you, Aybara, are simply a focal point for our national aspirations, not the embodiement of those aspirations, empowered to dispose of them as you wish. Let's see if you find the tax revenues from a little tabac and wool worth years of guerilla war."

[David Selig]

The Red Eagle banner represents a double insult to Elayne. First as a regent of Andor and second as an Aes Sedai.

Why would the Red Eagle banner be an insult to an Aes Sedai? The Queens of Manetheren were Aes Sedai, after all and the Kings their Warders. OK, Tetsuan betrayed Queen Eldrene out of jealousy, but for that she was stripped of the title of Amyrlin and as we see from Moiraine and Verin, the memory of Manetheren is highly regarded among the Aes Sedai.

 

*edit* On second thought - do you mean Elayne should be insulted that the current reincarnation of Manetheren is not led by an Aes Sedai?

[randsc]

The Red Eagle banner represents a double insult to Elayne. First as a regent of Andor and second as an Aes Sedai.

Why would the Red Eagle banner be an insult to an Aes Sedai? The Queens of Manetheren were Aes Sedai, after all and the Kings their Warders. OK, Tetsuan betrayed Queen Eldrene out of jealousy, but for that she was stripped of the title of Amyrlin and as we see from Moiraine and Verin, the memory of Manetheren is highly regarded among the Aes Sedai.

 

*edit* On second thought - do you mean Elayne should be insulted that the current reincarnation of Manetheren is not led by an Aes Sedai?

 

Maybe she would be offended by the reminder that the Aes Sedai of that time were so much different than the Aes Sedai of her own time?

[Durinax]

I think it would a be a cinstant reminder of how AS failed an extremely strong nation (in essence destroyed it through petty cause)

[Finnssss22]

Oh and the bloody Capital of flaming Manetheren was right there!

 

No it was in the Mountains of Mist

 

Also, you say none of the traditions of Manetheren are remembered or continued, what about the al'Caar's and the al'Seen's and the al'Thor's and the al'Vere's or the al'Meara's, along with a whole bloody list of Manetheren sounding names?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where nations other than Manetheren used such names in that manor.

 

Malkier? al'Lan, al'Akir

 

Actually it was on the banks of the Manetherendrelle where it met the Mountains of Mist, the south west corner of the Two Rivers, IN the Two rivers.

 

Notice how Lan and Akir use al' in front of their first names, while the Two Rivers folk and Manetheren use it before their last name.

 

A shame though that it wasn't Perrin, Mat or anyone else from Emond's Field for that matter that first raised the Red Eagle banner.

It was in fact first raised at Watch Hill and that was even before Faile met up with them.

Well over a year after Moiraine told her story. Presumably there is some intercourse between the three villages of the Two Rivers, yes? I mean, if Watch Hill knows all about the heraldry of Manetheren and Emond's Field has never even heard the name, I'm not really sure how that helps your position at all.

You're right though, Moiraine should of told them the epic and rather legendary tales of when they were all Farashalle farmers.

That would certainly be more in keeping with their true heritage. "A thousand years of sheep." (Well, twenty-two hundred now, and in all probability they were sheep farmers when Manetheren collected their taxes, too, but there was a big fancy city way over that way once)

What tradition are the Two Rivers people defending? Not just a "bedtime story." A functioning representative democracy in a world of undeserving nobles and proto-despots.

They did have that tradition, yes, before they sold themselves into the service of House Aybara, who in turn sold them to bigger and better aristocrats. I guess at least when Elayne sells them to Tuon in turn they'll have turned the clock back almost halfway to Manetheren.

 

Which was a monarchy. Oops.

 

Wow dude, again I have to ask...why does this thing we are made well aware of right from the beginning, that the blood of Manetheren still runs strong in the Two Rivers because of how secluded it is, bother you so badly?

Something that had to be, according to the Prophecies of the Dragon themselves.

 

Are you so far up Elayne's and Andor's ass that the idea of Manetheren rising again, even if just for so long as they can defend themselves, bothers you on such a personal level?

[moratcorlm]

why does this thing we are made well aware of right from the beginning, that the blood of Manetheren still runs strong in the Two Rivers because of how secluded it is, bother you so badly?

It ... doesn't. I haven't once objected to that. And you need better bait for your personal attacks, "dude".

[Suttree]

 

 

Actually it was on the banks of the Manetherendrelle where it met the Mountains of Mist, the south west corner of the Two Rivers, IN the Two rivers.

 

Source? I would be interested to check it out. I've always heard "in" the Mountains of Mist, Wot Wiki says "in the mountains between the headwaters of the Tarendrelle and the Manetherendrelle." for whatever that is worth...

 

I wonder what the difference of al' before the first instead of last name is? It is an honorific in both cases correct?

[Finnssss22]

why does this thing we are made well aware of right from the beginning, that the blood of Manetheren still runs strong in the Two Rivers because of how secluded it is, bother you so badly?

It ... doesn't. I haven't once objected to that. And you need better bait for your personal attacks, "dude".

 

There was no personal attack or intent there. If I wrongly assumed you were male, that was a mistake on my part, not a personal attack.

 

I mean the entire story all but revolves around the Blood of Manetheren rising up once more to lead the world into again spitting in the eye of the DO or I guess more properly, a thorn to the DO.

 

It's not like the Red Eagle was raised just to piss Andor off and Perrin only continued to carry it to mask his true purpose in Ghealdan.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Actually it was on the banks of the Manetherendrelle where it met the Mountains of Mist, the south west corner of the Two Rivers, IN the Two rivers.

 

Source? I would be interested to check it out. I've always heard "in" the Mountains of Mist, Wot Wiki says "in the mountains between the headwaters of the Tarendrelle and the Manetherendrelle." for whatever that is worth...

 

I wonder what the difference of al' before the first instead of last name is? It is an honorific in both cases correct?

 

 

The location of Manetheren is revealed in TEotW Chpt 9 by Moiraine.

Further confirmed when Perrin and co step out of the Waygate and are above the Manetherendrelle or as it's known now as The White River.

 

The "'al" before a last name is supposed to mean "son of" or "the son of", "'ay" means "daughter of" or "the daughter of" (see below). For whatever reason the "'al" in a lot of Two Rivers names was kept in front, while the "'ay" was condensed as in Aybara, Aydaer, Ayellin ect.

When used before the first name it apparently means something along the lines of "The" and seems to imply royalty.

For example if we look at "Al'cair Dal" it translates to "The Golden Bowl" so the "'al" in front of Lan's name seems to imply that he is "THE" Lan Mandragoran and is of some importance or like I said, royalty.

You have to remember that the OT doesn't translate over completely, or at least its' meanings are not always translated fully. Like when Moiraine is translating "Aiel" in tSR, she says it means "dedicated" but implies even more and stronger or Jenn Aiel, "true dedicated" but again more and even stronger.

[Terez]

Wow, morat'corlm is a girl?

[FarShainMael]

The "'al" before a last name is supposed to mean "son of" or "the son of", "'ay" means "daughter of" or "the daughter of" (see below). For whatever reason the "'al" in a lot of Two Rivers names was kept in front, while the "'ay" was condensed as in Aybara, Aydaer, Ayellin ect.

When used before the first name it apparently means something along the lines of "The" and seems to imply royalty.

For example if we look at "Al'cair Dal" it translates to "The Golden Bowl" so the "'al" in front of Lan's name seems to imply that he is "THE" Lan Mandragoran and is of some importance or like I said, royalty.

 

We meet this in TGH2. Rand is regarded by the Shienarians as a lord, though he denies it, because for them the prefix 'al' does denote royalty, particularly for Lan.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tgh/ch2.html

[Nygma7]

I cannot find it, but I'm convinced I've read it before. The only quote I can find - "Some of Mat's memories were either from past lives or from his ancestors via Old Blood. Mat remembers being Aemon at the Battle of Aemon's Field just after he is Healed in the White Tower; this is of course before he visits the Eelfinn (where he gets the other men's memories), and also before he visits the Aelfinn in Tear."

I thought Mat remembered warning Aemon (or was it someone else?) of a trick. Thom is reciting the story of how Aemon's enemy was so impressed with their valiant defense that he let them leave. Mat remembers that that wasn't how it happens, and when they started retreating, they got cut down trying to ford the river.

 

I wonder if the red eagle Min saw around Mat means anything other than a reference to his bloodline. It is odd that the only one to have anything to do with raising the Red Eagle is Perrin but Mat was the one with the vision.