How the choedan kal shall be safely tapped without an access key

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

We know that the access key ter'angreal were contructed so that a channeler could tap the choeden kal sa'angreal safely, without being burned out.

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal...

 

The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

- http://web.archive.org/web/19970118094928/www.tor.com/shayol.html

 

Callandor is a sa'angreal that lacks a buffer, like the choedan kal sa'angreal, and it is mentioned that a circle of male and female channelers can be used to channel it safely.

[Callandor] lacks the standard safety buffer and magnifies the taint so it can only be used safely by a circle of a man and two women

- http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

It is clear, then, that a circle led by a woman could tap the male Choedan Kal safely. The size of circle required is unknown, though it is possibly larger than that required to access callandor.

 

Therefore, we can surmise that the Chodean Kal could've been used effectively in the last battle without access keys.

[Barid Bel Medar]

the Male chodean Kal was destroyed in VoG. Read the chapter again. it wasnt just the key, it was the whole thing that was destroyed

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

This proves something important: that I've not done a re-read in a long, long time...

 

:p

[Barid Bel Medar]

This proves something important: that I've not done a re-read in a long, long time...

 

:p

 

haha yeah, it is easy to miss though.

 

The theory itself however, despite the absence of said sa'angreal is an interesting one. I would say that if the CK were to be used that way, it would need the max circle. The CK was 100s of times stronger that Callandor, you would need some massive buffers.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

I suppose another possibility, then, is the contruction of an access key terangreal for callandor.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I suppose another possibility, then, is the contruction of an access key terangreal for callandor.

 

At this point i would have to say there isnt enough time. I cant say much, since its a non ToM spoiler board, but it seems callandor's flaw will play a big part in making rand vunerable to the DO. That and the fact it has been highly forshadowed he will be using it with 2 other women.

 

The creation of an access key would disqualify all that forshadowing and suchlike. besides, who would make it? Elayne doesnt seem to be in a position to be making anything, what with her pregnancy.

 

But hey, it could happen. Who knows.

[fikkie77]

My first instict would say that the CK could have been used safely by the smallest mixed circle (2 women, 1 man); I believe that a circle itself prevents one to be burnt out.

But... the AoL Aes Sedai would know that if that was true and wouldn't have needed to make the accesskeys. They did make them, which makes me believe that either a circle wouldn't protect against burning out, or a larger circle than the maximum size would be needed.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

It also makes me wonder why the Forsaken tried so hard to get the access key ter'angreal, and never bothered to link together and channel through the CK. Perhaps they didn't trust each other enough to hand control of a circle over to just one of them.

 

It also makes me wonder why, in the AoL, they decided to create access key TA anyway; though any number of reasons could present themselves, with a little imagination (e.g. to allow a 'last man standing' scenario; or to ensure it could be used by a lone solider; or to allow it to be used remotely).

 

Access keys are to suldam and sa'angreal are to damane. Always there's this notion of someone tapping in to a great power through something else in the WoT. It seems to me that this is a metaphor for the effects of our will upon the universe - RJ seems the type of guy that believed the more energy you throw at something, the more likely you are to succeed. But Rand seems to be challenging that notion which is interesting but I can't discuss that further here.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It also makes me wonder why the Forsaken tried so hard to get the access key ter'angreal, and never bothered to link together and channel through the CK. Perhaps they didn't trust each other enough to hand control of a circle over to just one of them.

 

It also makes me wonder why, in the AoL, they decided to create access key TA anyway; though any number of reasons could present themselves, with a little imagination.

 

Access keys are to suldam and sa'angreal are to damane. Always there's this notion of someone tapping in to a great power through something else in the WoT. It seems to me that this is a metaphor for the effects of our will upon the universe - RJ seems the type of guy that believed the more energy you throw at something, the more likely you are to succeed. But Rand seems to be challenging that notion which is interesting but I can't discuss that further here.

 

Circles dont prevent stilling or burning out. It has never been mentioned.

 

When Rand was in his box, he broke the Aes Sedai shield and stilled three sisters. They were linked in a circle, yet still stilled.

 

I dont know where it ever said or even hinted that a circle is a buffer against burning out.

 

But yes, the Forsaken dont trust each other enough to link. They wouldnt do it.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

I suspect that individual members of a circle could burn themselves out by drawing too much of the OP.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I suspect that individual members of a circle could burn themselves out by drawing too much of the OP.

 

It would have to be the lead. They are the only ones that can draw the power. The other members dont have control.

 

That is a good question though.

 

If the lead in a circle drew too much of the OP, would they burn only themselves out? Or would the whole circle be burned out?

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

If Morgase was in a circle that Nyneave controlled, could Nyn burn Morgase out by drawing in huge amounts of OP? I doubt it - the circle itself might act as a buffer for Morgase.

 

If the lead in a circle drew too much of the OP, would they burn only themselves out? Or would the whole circle be burned out?

No idea, though it's never been mentioned, as far as I know, which could be telling.

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Morgase was in a circle that Nyneave controlled, could Nyn burn Morgase out by drawing in huge amounts of OP? I doubt it - the circle itself might act as a buffer for Morgase.

 

If the lead in a circle drew too much of the OP, would they burn only themselves out? Or would the whole circle be burned out?

No idea, though it's never been mentioned, as far as I know, which could be telling.

 

yeah, the morgase thing is true i think. So in a way, it does act as a buffer. Although, Morgase technically wouldnt be drawing any more power than she could. It would be Nynaeve's.

 

In any case, even if it WERE possible to use the CK in a cirle, it would be pretty useless. I mean the CK are massive statues, you would have to be touching them to use them. Its not like you could carry them round. So a battle would have to take place in Cairhien or on Tremalking for any circle to use the CK like that.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

You're a militaristic young thing, aren't you? :)

 

The awesomeness of being able to circle-channel the CK is not that it could be used as a weapon; it's that

a) contrary to popular belief, an access key may not be required

b) extra evidence that shows circles (i.e. co-operation between channelers) acts as a buffer for all involved - 'we can achieve more by working together' (an important TG theme)

c) Rand and co seem to have no idea that this is the case.

[dovien]

"I now control the flow of saidar from her as well as my own," Nynaeve went on, not quite meeting Elayne's eyes, "and will until I let her go. Now, don't fear that whoever leads the circle," she shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, "can make you draw too much. This really is a great deal like an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way, in a circle you can't be made to draw too much. In fact, in a circle you can't draw quite as much as you can otherwise."

[Barid Bel Medar]

"I now control the flow of saidar from her as well as my own," Nynaeve went on, not quite meeting Elayne's eyes, "and will until I let her go. Now, don't fear that whoever leads the circle," she shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, "can make you draw too much. This really is a great deal like an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way, in a circle you can't be made to draw too much. In fact, in a circle you can't draw quite as much as you can otherwise."

 

well, seems I am wrong then.

[Exy]

This all relies on the absolutely unsupportable assertion that there's some kind of similarity between the Choedan Kal and Callandor. Nothing in the text suggests that anywhere. What's said over and over is that the Choedan Kal are just too powerful to be used on their own -- there's obviously some upper limit to how powerful a sa'angreal can be (gotten around, in the case of the Choedan Kal, with the access keys.)

 

Callandor won't burn you out instantly, it just fails to contain the fail-safe that normal sa'angreal have. Nothing suggests that those two phenomena are related.

[Xader]

"I now control the flow of saidar from her as well as my own," Nynaeve went on, not quite meeting Elayne's eyes, "and will until I let her go. Now, don't fear that whoever leads the circle," she shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, "can make you draw too much. This really is a great deal like an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way, in a circle you can't be made to draw too much. In fact, in a circle you can't draw quite as much as you can otherwise."

 

Well, we also know that statements made in the series are from the point of view of the speaker.

 

It may not necessarily be true, just Nynaeve doesn't know of a condition where it wouldn't be. Using the CK may be one such condition.

[mb]

Channeling without an access key I take would require that the channeler/channelers be somewhere near it.

 

An access key for Callandor, that might not necessarily discredit the predictions of the 2 woman + 1 man circle.

 

By the way, the smallest circle involving men is actually is 1 man + 1 woman.

[OptimusPrime]

It also makes me wonder why the Forsaken tried so hard to get the access key ter'angreal, and never bothered to link together and channel through the CK. Perhaps they didn't trust each other enough to hand control of a circle over to just one of them.

 

It also makes me wonder why, in the AoL, they decided to create access key TA anyway; though any number of reasons could present themselves, with a little imagination.

 

Access keys are to suldam and sa'angreal are to damane. Always there's this notion of someone tapping in to a great power through something else in the WoT. It seems to me that this is a metaphor for the effects of our will upon the universe - RJ seems the type of guy that believed the more energy you throw at something, the more likely you are to succeed. But Rand seems to be challenging that notion which is interesting but I can't discuss that further here.

 

Circles dont prevent stilling or burning out. It has never been mentioned.

 

When Rand was in his box, he broke the Aes Sedai shield and stilled three sisters. They were linked in a circle, yet still stilled.

 

I dont know where it ever said or even hinted that a circle is a buffer against burning out.

 

But yes, the Forsaken dont trust each other enough to link. They wouldnt do it.

 

Except for Graendal and Sammael back in the day

[Barid Bel Medar]

It also makes me wonder why the Forsaken tried so hard to get the access key ter'angreal, and never bothered to link together and channel through the CK. Perhaps they didn't trust each other enough to hand control of a circle over to just one of them.

 

It also makes me wonder why, in the AoL, they decided to create access key TA anyway; though any number of reasons could present themselves, with a little imagination.

 

Access keys are to suldam and sa'angreal are to damane. Always there's this notion of someone tapping in to a great power through something else in the WoT. It seems to me that this is a metaphor for the effects of our will upon the universe - RJ seems the type of guy that believed the more energy you throw at something, the more likely you are to succeed. But Rand seems to be challenging that notion which is interesting but I can't discuss that further here.

 

Circles dont prevent stilling or burning out. It has never been mentioned.

 

When Rand was in his box, he broke the Aes Sedai shield and stilled three sisters. They were linked in a circle, yet still stilled.

 

I dont know where it ever said or even hinted that a circle is a buffer against burning out.

 

But yes, the Forsaken dont trust each other enough to link. They wouldnt do it.

 

Except for Graendal and Sammael back in the day

 

Yeah, most likely.

 

Possibly Semirhage, Demandred and Mesaana back in hte day also. They seem to have had the strongest alliance out of all the Forsaken.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

This all relies on the absolutely unsupportable assertion that there's some kind of similarity between the Choedan Kal and Callandor. Nothing in the text suggests that anywhere. What's said over and over is that the Choedan Kal are just too powerful to be used on their own -- there's obviously some upper limit to how powerful a sa'angreal can be (gotten around, in the case of the Choedan Kal, with the access keys.)

 

Callandor won't burn you out instantly (if you are of sufficient strength), it just fails to contain the fail-safe that normal sa'angreal have. Nothing suggests that those two phenomena are related.

You yourself have just proven that my assertion is supportable and provable. You claim that there are no similarities mentioned between the CK and callandor, yet you contradict yourself by mentioning the 'fail-safe'.

 

Callandor won't burn you out instantly, but shall do if you continue to draw a steadily escalating amount of the OP through it, until you are drawing a torrent through it that you cannot handle.

The CK provide an instant torrent that you cannot handle. The 'fail-safe' in the CK's case is the access key.

 

Therefore, there are inate and important similarities between CK and callandor:

1. they're both sa'angreal

2. They both lack valves that regulate the amount of OP flowing through them

3. These valves can be innate to the SA, or be a seperate TA

[Aliriel]

Okay, this might sound a bit pathetic to all the awesome theories already put out there in this thread, but if i remember rightly, it stats, that at the time of the sealing of the Bore, the CK were still untested, maybe the access keys were never intended to be a perminant part of them, but only there until the final tests had been past... sort of like a kill switch on a bandsaw... "something goes wrong, hit the switch, everything is safe" kind of thing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

A.

[Exy]

You yourself have just proven that my assertion is supportable and provable. You claim that there are no similarities mentioned between the CK and callandor, yet you contradict yourself by mentioning the 'fail-safe'.

There is no contradiction there because there's nothing -- seriously, nothing -- in the text, at least so far, that hints that the fact that the Choedan Kal are too powerful to be used on their own has any relationship to the manufacturing flaw in Callandor.

 

There's nothing in the text that supports the idea that the (very vague) similarity you point out has the same cause or can be dealt with in the same way.

 

2. They both lack valves that regulate the amount of OP flowing through them

This assertion cannot be supported in the case of the Choedan Kal. Everywhere in the text it's said that the danger of Choedan Kal is inherent in their immense power, not that they were manufactured imperfectly like Callandor.

[Mulk]

My opinion, formed from what I remember from the books. I don't have time to go digging for quotes or looking through the Thirteenth Depository at this moment.

 

The danger in the CK is in the the volume of power you access: you had to be able to handle a certain amount of power just to not be burned up doing it was the way Verin put it, and given her generally wide range of knowledge and her reliability I see no reason to doubt her.

 

Linking doesn't give you a greater capacity, it gives you access to a somewhat lessened capacity of the others in your circle, or more if they are holding an angreal or the like, but you don't ever actually take hold of it. You take their flows and weave it. Ergo, the only way a circle can make use of the CK is if someone in it has the capacity to use it and has the access key close to hand. The only way the lead channeler of the circle can use its full ability is to be strong enough to use it her or himself. Again, a circle doesn't increase the capacity of a channeler, just gives him or her access to the strength of others, so it doesn't make you any more able to bear the load of the CK yourself. It still requires the access ter'angreal.

 

We see channelers using angreals in a circle to increase its capacity in the use of the Bowl of Winds. Elayne gives Aviendha an angreal and there are others present to use so that the leader has more power to draw on. But I maintain that even such a circle, thirteen powerful channelers with angreal spread around, would not make one able to use the statue itself without an access key.

 

Given the events at the end of TGS, all such discussion is moot anyway. The female CK was destroyed by the cleansing of the taint from saidin and the male CK was destroyed by Rand. /shrug Somehow, Callandor will do.