Big Unnoticed Things

[fikkie77]

Hi all,

 

The BUT has been uncovered: it was the true purpose of the Ashanderei.

But during the search for the BUT other small unnoticed details came up and I wonder whether more of these details might still have a role to play. Like the unseen eyes (before I read ToM my favourite of being the BUT) in TAR.

 

So... what big or small unnoticed thing do you think has still a role to play? What role? Or do you think that some detail has more significance than has been mentioned before?

 

One thing I thought about when I was making dinner: why were there 13 Forsaken trapped in de Bore? We know they were the 13 strongest Forsaken (there were much more) and the happened to be in SG exactly when Lews Therin showed up with his 100+ companions. Why 13? My looney theory is that while fighting the companions the Shadow wanted to turn the Dragon by the 13x13 trick. In the third age, this idea wasn't abandoned: after Ishy tried to turn Rand on his free will, the Dragon was to be kept alive. The fallen Forsaken were resurrected to keep their numbers up (though other Dreadlords would have needed because of balefire accidents).

[blazetheearth]

Hi all,

 

The BUT has been uncovered: it was the true purpose of the Ashanderei.

But during the search for the BUT other small unnoticed details came up and I wonder whether more of these details might still have a role to play. Like the unseen eyes (before I read ToM my favourite of being the BUT) in TAR.

 

So... what big or small unnoticed thing do you think has still a role to play? What role? Or do you think that some detail has more significance than has been mentioned before?

 

One thing I thought about when I was making dinner: why were there 13 Forsaken trapped in de Bore? We know they were the 13 strongest Forsaken (there were much more) and the happened to be in SG exactly when Lews Therin showed up with his 100+ companions. Why 13? My looney theory is that while fighting the companions the Shadow wanted to turn the Dragon by the 13x13 trick. In the third age, this idea wasn't abandoned: after Ishy tried to turn Rand on his free will, the Dragon was to be kept alive. The fallen Forsaken were resurrected to keep their numbers up (though other Dreadlords would have needed because of balefire accidents).

 

I don't know where the quote is, but RJ said that the reason those specific 13 people were at SG when LTT attacked was due to the DO chose to call a Chosen Board Meeting to give out orders for the final push (the Shadow had almost won at this point, only a few places held out against them) and that it was LTT's Tav'eren nature that made him choose that specific day to launch the attack. The dead Chosen were transmigrated because the DO has fewer tools to work with in the 3rd Age and those are much weaker and less educated.

 

I don't know about 'unseen eyes' though. But one odd thing about them is that I don't remember Perrin ever encountering 'unseen eyes' in TAR.

 

There has been a something that I have wondered about though,

 

The Ogier Great Stump was convened to discuss 'opening the Book of Translation' and that begs the question "What is the Book of Translation? Is it actually a device, or just a book with knowledge of how to do something? IIRC they talk about it as though opening it would cause them to leave this world behind (like the elves from LOTR). Maybe it is a Magical Item from the same age as the HoV. How does it work and what exactly would be the repercussions from opening this book?

[Guest Segin]

There's surely more to the Book of Translation than this, but here is what I think.

With Ogier being the songmasters, and the Tinkers looking for the "Song", when the Book of Translation is opened, the Tinkers will find the song. The Tinkers are the Aiel who have held on to the past. I bet they have a part to play yet.

 

Segin

[Ozzie_aiel]

I always thought the attack on the Bore coincided with reports that the Forsaken would be meeting there. It was a deliberate act to destroy all the leaders of the Shadow in one strike. After all, even if the DO was sealed away, the Forsaken wouldn't have simply given up, packed up their trollocs and went home. The 13 forsaken trapped in the bore were the 13 strongest because the others had been killed off by this point. There's no evidence that points to a high-ranking darkfriend channeller (aside from Ishy) controlling things during the breaking, and if any forsaken did survive, they would most likely still be around today, given that the DO gave out immortality, protected from the taint (if he were male), and would have repeatedly resurrected any powerful ally able to further his cause while the other 13 were stuck in limbo.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim was Taim is Moridin

[Luckers]

I will be converting the BUT database into a list of unanswered questions database later this year, if that's of any interest.

[fikkie77]

Taim was Taim is Moridin

I have believed for some time that Taim was actually Demandred in disguise, but that RJ changed his mind when the Taimandred hype started.

After learning more about RJ and the WOT, I'm very sure RJ rarely changes his mind about the characters (if ever) and certainly not about something this big.

 

The first mentioning about Taim were when Ishy was just good old mad Ishy. It could be possible Moridin became Taim after that, but it seems far fetched.

 

Luckers: that would be great!

[Ananta]

I posted this in one other thread, but I shall post it here too:

 

I haven't seen any discussion about this; I skimmed through the 4 pages of threads and didnt notice anything about it.

 

Olver beat the Snakes and Foxes game. Now, I wonder if this is because:

 

1. They miscounted and thus ended up winning the game

2. Mat beat the tower -> The game mechanics somehow magically changed

3. Olver is full of massive ownage

 

 

I can't come up with any other reasons for that to have happened, but if it's simply because Olver miscounted and ended up winning, then it seems sort of redundant to even write about. He might as well have lost yet another time. Or not have played the game at all.

[Luckers]

There is a fourth option. Olver's PoV displays clear sociopathic symptoms--the perception that he is inferior to Mat now so that Mat is inferior to him later. The understanding of adult sexual roles in a functional manner, as opposed to a mimic the actions of adults manner... His 'win' could be self-delusion, the sheer point of a psychological break that has been building since the death of his parents.

[andrewatk]

There is a fourth option. Olver's PoV displays clear sociopathic symptoms--the perception that he is inferior to Mat now so that Mat is inferior to him later. The understanding of adult sexual roles in a functional manner, as opposed to a mimic the actions of adults manner... His 'win' could be self-delusion, the sheer point of a psychological break that has been building since the death of his parents.

 

If he hadn't really won, I think the adults would have said something. I think is is simply a case of deliberate symbolic parallelism between Mat's "win" at the ToG and the game.

 

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

[Wolf505]

I just finished a complete re-read, and there's really only one thing that struck me as another possible big unnoticed thing.

 

I think it's odd that there has been no mention at all of Rand's relationship to Galad. AFAIK only Rand knows of it, but other then one line mentioning that he had a half brother somewhere when he hears the story of Shaiel leaving a behind "a son that she loved and a husband she didn't" we hear nothing of it in Rand's POVs, even when he's talking to Dyelin and finds out Tigraine is his mother's true identity. Rand has met Galad and unless he's completely dense he would've figured out that Galad is his brother. Seems like it's something that should've at least been mentioned, unless it's deliberate, much like nobody asking WHY Mat was given the Ashandarei by the Eelfinn. If it isn't brought up that seems like a rather stranger oversight.

 

The only other thing I can think of is Taim having a dark halo like True Power using Rand, but I've seen that brought up multiple times now. Personally I ascribe to the theory of Taim being a Dreadlord from the Age of Legends that survived in a stasis box or Vacuole until Ishamael or one of the other's let him out (given the time frame I'm just assuming it would be Ishamael).

[Ananta]

I just finished a complete re-read, and there's really only one thing that struck me as another possible big unnoticed thing.

 

I think it's odd that there has been no mention at all of Rand's relationship to Galad. AFAIK only Rand knows of it, but other then one line mentioning that he had a half brother somewhere when he hears the story of Shaiel leaving a behind "a son that she loved and a husband she didn't" we hear nothing of it in Rand's POVs, even when he's talking to Dyelin and finds out Tigraine is his mother's true identity. Rand has met Galad and unless he's completely dense he would've figured out that Galad is his brother. Seems like it's something that should've at least been mentioned, unless it's deliberate, much like nobody asking WHY Mat was given the Ashandarei by the Eelfinn. If it isn't brought up that seems like a rather stranger oversight.

 

The only other thing I can think of is Taim having a dark halo like True Power using Rand, but I've seen that brought up multiple times now. Personally I ascribe to the theory of Taim being a Dreadlord from the Age of Legends that survived in a stasis box or Vacuole until Ishamael or one of the other's let him out (given the time frame I'm just assuming it would be Ishamael).

 

Now that you mention it, it would be rather awkward moment for Galad to hear that the Dragon Reborn is his brother.

 

I guess he finds out at some point...

[Wolf505]

I actually thought of another one that I noticed: Who was giving Isam orders and told him to kill Rand in Far Madding? It was someone who claimed to be Chosen, but hid their features and voice. Later we have Moridin in one of the Forsaken get together's claiming someone unknown, who he assumes to be Sammael has been ordering massive numbers of shadowspawn through the ways. None of the Forsaken present know what he's talking about. So the question is, is Sammael alive, or is there someone else passing themselves off as one of the Forsaken? It never says who this person is. I suppose it could be Taim if he is indeed one of the Forsaken from the Age of Legends that wasn't trapped in the bore, but survived in a stasis box/vacuole. But in any case, who was it that did these things?

[Dakota]

I actually thought of another one that I noticed: Who was giving Isam orders and told him to kill Rand in Far Madding? It was someone who claimed to be Chosen, but hid their features and voice. Later we have Moridin in one of the Forsaken get together's claiming someone unknown, who he assumes to be Sammael has been ordering massive numbers of shadowspawn through the ways. None of the Forsaken present know what he's talking about. So the question is, is Sammael alive, or is there someone else passing themselves off as one of the Forsaken? It never says who this person is. I suppose it could be Taim if he is indeed one of the Forsaken from the Age of Legends that wasn't trapped in the bore, but survived in a stasis box/vacuole. But in any case, who was it that did these things?

 

RJ has confirmed that Sammael is dead, and due to the nature of Mashahadar's taint, cannot be transmigrated into a new body like the other Forsaken who have died. So it's not Sammael himself.

 

If it's not Demandred doing it for some reason, then I would say the most likely candidate is Taim. While I don't think he's one of the Forsaken from the AoL, he seems like the best candidate to be the Third Age's first new Forsaken.

[andrewatk]

I just finished a complete re-read, and there's really only one thing that struck me as another possible big unnoticed thing.

 

I think it's odd that there has been no mention at all of Rand's relationship to Galad. AFAIK only Rand knows of it, but other then one line mentioning that he had a half brother somewhere when he hears the story of Shaiel leaving a behind "a son that she loved and a husband she didn't" we hear nothing of it in Rand's POVs, even when he's talking to Dyelin and finds out Tigraine is his mother's true identity. Rand has met Galad and unless he's completely dense he would've figured out that Galad is his brother. Seems like it's something that should've at least been mentioned, unless it's deliberate, much like nobody asking WHY Mat was given the Ashandarei by the Eelfinn. If it isn't brought up that seems like a rather stranger oversight.

 

The only other thing I can think of is Taim having a dark halo like True Power using Rand, but I've seen that brought up multiple times now. Personally I ascribe to the theory of Taim being a Dreadlord from the Age of Legends that survived in a stasis box or Vacuole until Ishamael or one of the other's let him out (given the time frame I'm just assuming it would be Ishamael).

 

 

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that "Big Unnoticed Thing" means something that has been unnoticed by the fans, not the characters. As in, the fans have never before noticed the connection between Mat's weapon and his third wish. The Rand/Galad relationship has been very noticed by both the fans and Rand. It is just that Rand has a lot of things on his plate and has other things to do than try to track down his long-lost half brother for a family reunion.

[Luckers]

There is a fourth option. Olver's PoV displays clear sociopathic symptoms--the perception that he is inferior to Mat now so that Mat is inferior to him later. The understanding of adult sexual roles in a functional manner, as opposed to a mimic the actions of adults manner... His 'win' could be self-delusion, the sheer point of a psychological break that has been building since the death of his parents.

 

If he hadn't really won, I think the adults would have said something. I think is is simply a case of deliberate symbolic parallelism between Mat's "win" at the ToG and the game.

 

The 'adults' being Talmanes who did not see the play that supposedly won the game? And indeed he did say something. It amounted to "You say you won? I did not see it, but that never happens".

 

Which does not mean it did not happen. Nor, for that matter, that it did.

 

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

 

I'm actually confused as to whether this is an accurate, if innapropriately degrading, comment about Jim (who studied physics) and Brandon (the presumed elevated fanboy) or just a sweep-aside comment. In either case I'm not reading anything into the scene--Olver shows all the symptoms of sociopathy. This may, perhaps, be the result of overly melodramatic writing. Time will tell, I suppose.

[andrewatk]

There is a fourth option. Olver's PoV displays clear sociopathic symptoms--the perception that he is inferior to Mat now so that Mat is inferior to him later. The understanding of adult sexual roles in a functional manner, as opposed to a mimic the actions of adults manner... His 'win' could be self-delusion, the sheer point of a psychological break that has been building since the death of his parents.

 

If he hadn't really won, I think the adults would have said something. I think is is simply a case of deliberate symbolic parallelism between Mat's "win" at the ToG and the game.

 

The 'adults' being Talmanes who did not see the play that supposedly won the game? And indeed he did say something. It amounted to "You say you won? I did not see it, but that never happens".

 

Which does not mean it did not happen. Nor, for that matter, that it did.

 

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

 

I'm actually confused as to whether this is an accurate, if innapropriately degrading, comment about Jim (who studied physics) and Brandon (the presumed elevated fanboy) or just a sweep-aside comment. In either case I'm not reading anything into the scene--Olver shows all the symptoms of sociopathy. This may, perhaps, be the result of overly melodramatic writing. Time will tell, I suppose.

 

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that I don't think either authors were writing with the DSM-IV in mind. Olver certainly shows signs of a disrupted childhood, but I think it is going a bit far to try to make a diagnoses based on that one scene. Now, I'm willing to assume you have a pyschology background, and I make no claims to one myself, but I'm just saying I don't the intent was to make the kid out to be mentally disturbed in a specific clinical sense.

 

I suppose the question could be put to Brandon. Does anyone know if he makes a habit of answering e-mail's? I know many authors are too busy.

[chinnma]

As for "all the signs" of sociopathy, i dont recall him being extreemely introspective or torturing animals.

[Suttree]

There is a fourth option. Olver's PoV displays clear sociopathic symptoms--the perception that he is inferior to Mat now so that Mat is inferior to him later. The understanding of adult sexual roles in a functional manner, as opposed to a mimic the actions of adults manner... His 'win' could be self-delusion, the sheer point of a psychological break that has been building since the death of his parents.

 

If he hadn't really won, I think the adults would have said something. I think is is simply a case of deliberate symbolic parallelism between Mat's "win" at the ToG and the game.

 

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

 

Wow, not the biggest fan of BS's prose but that seems a bit harsh.

[yoniy0]

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

 

I'm actually confused as to whether this is an accurate, if innapropriately degrading, comment about Jim (who studied physics) and Brandon (the presumed elevated fanboy) or just a sweep-aside comment. In either case I'm not reading anything into the scene--Olver shows all the symptoms of sociopathy. This may, perhaps, be the result of overly melodramatic writing. Time will tell, I suppose.

Come now, J, he didn't mean anything by it. It's just that most of us (including Mr. Rigney and Mr. Sanderson, I believe) don't have a working knowledge of psychology/psychotherapy, and so elements in that scene could've been written out of a misguided intent to show immaturity that a professional might identify as symptoms of mental illness.

 

By the way, wouldn't you agree that one shouldn't usually preform psychoanalysis on an individual until he reaches the age of 16-18?

[Ananta]

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

 

I'm actually confused as to whether this is an accurate, if innapropriately degrading, comment about Jim (who studied physics) and Brandon (the presumed elevated fanboy) or just a sweep-aside comment. In either case I'm not reading anything into the scene--Olver shows all the symptoms of sociopathy. This may, perhaps, be the result of overly melodramatic writing. Time will tell, I suppose.

Come now, J, he didn't mean anything by it. It's just that most of us (including Mr. Rigney and Mr. Sanderson, I believe) don't have a working knowledge of psychology/psychotherapy, and so elements in that scene could've been written out of a misguided intent to show immaturity that a professional might identify as symptoms of mental illness.

 

By the way, wouldn't you agree that one shouldn't usually preform psychoanalysis on an individual until he reaches the age of 16-18?

Haha yeah I remember reading somewhere that (all) children under 10 are pretty much sociopaths.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Also, I think you are reading way too much armchair psychology into a minor character invented by a physicist and written by an Elevated Fanboy. I agree with those that say that the intent was simply to represent an immature child that has been through an unusual upbringing, not someone undergoing a break from reality in any clinical sense of the term.

 

I'm actually confused as to whether this is an accurate, if innapropriately degrading, comment about Jim (who studied physics) and Brandon (the presumed elevated fanboy) or just a sweep-aside comment. In either case I'm not reading anything into the scene--Olver shows all the symptoms of sociopathy. This may, perhaps, be the result of overly melodramatic writing. Time will tell, I suppose.

Come now, J, he didn't mean anything by it. It's just that most of us (including Mr. Rigney and Mr. Sanderson, I believe) don't have a working knowledge of psychology/psychotherapy, and so elements in that scene could've been written out of a misguided intent to show immaturity that a professional might identify as symptoms of mental illness.

 

By the way, wouldn't you agree that one shouldn't usually preform psychoanalysis on an individual until he reaches the age of 16-18?

Haha yeah I remember reading somewhere that (all) children under 10 are pretty much sociopaths.

 

 

Sociopathy is the lack of empathy. I am fairly certain 8-9 year olds are capable of sympathizing or empathizing with things, beings or people. 2-3 year olds however are not.

[Ananta]

Sociopathy is the lack of empathy. I am fairly certain 8-9 year olds are capable of sympathizing or empathizing with things, beings or people. 2-3 year olds however are not.

 

This study here: http://www.emaxhealth.com/1357/7/34783/most-children-unrepentant-sociopaths-study.html

 

 

"A study published Monday in The Journal Of Child Psychology And Psychiatry has concluded that an estimated 98 percent of children under the age of 10 are remorseless sociopaths with little regard for anything other than their own egocentric interests and pleasures."

[ajfurst]

Taim was Taim is Moridin

I have believed for some time that Taim was actually Demandred in disguise, but that RJ changed his mind when the Taimandred hype started.

After learning more about RJ and the WOT, I'm very sure RJ rarely changes his mind about the characters (if ever) and certainly not about something this big.

The one I still think RJ changed is Aviendha being pregnant back in LOC - the scene with her and the Wise Ones, where she says Rand makes her sick in her stomach and they laugh at what she thinks is the reason. I think it then got dropped for Elayne pregnant later in WH, due to timeline issues (with how much remaining in the story and Avi would remain around Rand, whilst Elayne is off-screen from him, so there wouldn't be a Rand/Pregnant girl moment until after Rand's epiphany).

[DanBirchett]

Personally I think Olver's mental state is being way over thought. The boy isn't necessarily going to go all "Dexter" on us. I presumed his thought process was based off of his up bringing with the Band, particularly in that he wants to be like Mat. "Oh, Mat ditched, so next time when it's up to me, I'll ditch him." That sort of thing. He is being raised by a bunch of rowdy soldiers who womanize, drink and gamble. So to Olver, this must be the normal way for men to think and act right?

 

Olver beating the game, I think that reflects Mat beating them by cheating, but also points to there being more to Olver than meets the eye.