The Prophecies of the Shadow

[Terez]

I believe that 'consumed by the Midnight Towers' refers to the link with Moridin. At some point, Rand will lose control of his body due to this, I think. It fits with the foreshadowing in TEOTW (if you'll look at the link given above).Which is, of course, why he has to die to survive the Last Battle.

[Mandro]

'The Shadow does not need her to find me, Min, nor will it ever again. All its eyes are fixed directly upon me, and will be until I blind them.'

 

That's good foreshadowing right there. Because Rand is talking about whenever he does his thing, but he doesn't mean it literally. He just means he's going to seal the Bore and blind the Dark One that way. But the knife ter'angreal will come first. Just like Rand didn't mean it literally when he said 'I will climb this bloody mountain and face the sun.' I think this is Brandon's style of foreshadowing, as opposed to RJ's, or rather Brandon's attempt at RJ's style of foreshadowing.

 

that's actually not bad, but question. Exactly how man hands is rand gonna have during the Last Battler for all the crap he's supposed to be carrying :)

[Mandro]

I believe that 'consumed by the Midnight Towers' refers to the link with Moridin. At some point, Rand will lose control of his body due to this, I think. It fits with the foreshadowing in TEOTW (if you'll look at the link given above).Which is, of course, why he has to die to survive the Last Battle.

 

could also be an avatar like statement. "I thought I was a weapon min, I was wrong, I never was." Maybe (as my theory about "the three becoming one" has to do with the 3 powers) rand is the avatar of the DO at TG, giving corporeal presence so that he may be killed, and reborn in another form. The link with moridin might also be a part of the 3 becoming one. Rand, LTT and Ishamael/Moridin (another theory I have is that there will be a crapton of triplets in the LB) I wasn't the first to say that the DO will take rand over making him vulnerable or some variation thereof, but they way you put that, seems a little more reasonable.

 

Moridin, directly hasn't taken much action (that we know of) in the westerworld, and maybe it's because he isn't completely returned as yet? He is still somewhat bound to the focus of power of the DO to keep him whole? That would be interesting, because of the conversation in TAR there is an insinuation that LTT and Ishamael were actually good friends before the turn to the shadow, and at the LB for old friends and old enemies to be fused and then again with the will of the DO leading to the death (as effeted by Alivia)

 

BLAH! eff it, I'm just writing my own last chapter, I lost track.

[Terez]

...my theory about "the three becoming one" has to do with the 3 powers

...The link with moridin might also be a part of the 3 becoming one. Rand, LTT and Ishamael/Moridin ...

Loony theories, those! Well, the first is somewhat possible, but definitely not the second, partly because Rand and Lews Therin 'were not two men, and never had been' so Rand-Lews Therin is not comparable to either-Moridin. Also partly because the three should become one at one time, while he holds the blade of light in his hands.

 

...the conversation in TAR there is an insinuation that LTT and Ishamael were actually good friends before the turn to the shadow...

Just a nitpick - that wasn't Tel'aran'rhiod. It was most likely Moridin's own dream. The fact that Rand could show up in his dream is what clued him in to the fact that he could do the same (as we saw in TOM).

[MauricXe]

Maybe Rand will die twice?

 

TGH Chapter 26

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

 

Maybe the day will repeat itself somehow? Or perhaps this means on two separate days his blood will be shed.

 

I don't like the Broken Wolf analogy for Rand tbh. The Wolf analogy doesn't click with me because the wolf analogy has always been Perrin's gimmick. I would imagine it be Perrin or someone else. If the Last Battle rages for an extended period of time, Perrin will most likely become an important general. I could see his death being important. But alas I don't know.

 

Just think, in a few months, all of these topics will be answered :)......but they will also die :(

 

 

I also think the first among vermin, the first among regular DFs, is most likely Moridin. Moridin also gives Rand his freedom by forbidding Rand's death. The first among vermin could also be the DO.

[ironchefofmunchies]

I have no question now that the BROKEN WOLF is Rand. A lot of foreshadowing to his death, and ONLY his death would have that kind of impact.

 

Mat and Perrin are too insignificant and their deaths would not result "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall SHAKE THEIR VERY WILL ITSELF".

 

Definitely Rand will die...but who will kill him? "Be consumed by the Midnight Towers" indicate one or more of the Forsaken. Ishamael confrontation? Demandred? Lanfear? Demandred has been essentially useless for 13 books, and he is bound to have a chapter or two in the last book before dying.

 

Rand will die but he will certainly be resurrected: "And the Lord of the Evening shall face the BROKEN CHAMPION".

 

 

 

 

"Be consumed by the Midnight Towers" to me speaks of Rand being finally taken over my Moridin through the link.

 

I imagine then Alivia gets to kill Rand.

[seasnake]

Likely enough the Broken Wolf is Lan, his fall and the final fall of the Golden Crane would be a major triumph of the dark.

[horus17]

I agree with Seasnake and one or two other people. My first impression of the Broken Wolf was Lan. There have been many allusions to him and Death, riding together and such. And if he dies, then all of the warriors and Borderlanders will certainly feel the pain, and know fear. He alone rallied an army from many nations of people and the scattered malkeri. Lan's entire life was spent fighting the DO. He is the epitome of someone that has had everything taken away by the DO. Didn't Myrelle or whoever Moiraine passed his bond to, say he was broken? He is seen as the bringer of hope to the borderlands. I think the Borderlanders all expect him to carve the Seven Towers out of the Blight and rebuild Malkier stone by stone!! The Midnight Towers could be something in the Blight we have yet to see. Like the THING in the Blight. I'm just not seeing these towers be of Seanchan origin. And the Tower of Ghenjei is the Tower of Ghenjei, so why have two names for it? The Towers of Midnight could be the towers mentioned that crumbled, leaving 6 standing. All it takes is one sentence from a book for it to be used to name said book. Like the Fires of Heaven, or Lord of Chaos... its not like these phrases popped up all over the place.

 

And why would The First Among Vermin be a Forsaken? If I was a bad-guy, I wouldn't see myself as bad, so my enemies would be the vermin. And we all know Rand has plans to free the DO in order to lock him back away.

[yoniy0]

The fact that Rand could show up in his dream is what clued him in to the fact that he could do the same (as we saw in TOM).

Interesting. Of course, that's not the only possibility, as Lanfear once claimed to be able to bypass Rand's wards.

[Terez]

The fact that Rand could show up in his dream is what clued him in to the fact that he could do the same (as we saw in TOM).

Interesting. Of course, that's not the only possibility, as Lanfear once claimed to be able to bypass Rand's wards.

Yes, but she also implied that it would be unpleasant, and he didn't notice any pain or anything like that. Also, she said that to him before he really remembered much of Lews Therin's memories. No doubt it would not be so easy for her now that he does - and also, he should have considered that when he saw her in the dream (and he didn't).

[yoniy0]

Yes, but she also implied that it would be unpleasant, and he didn't notice any pain or anything like that. Also, she said that to him before he really remembered much of Lews Therin's memories. No doubt it would not be so easy for her now that he does

True that.

 

and also, he should have considered that when he saw her in the dream (and he didn't).

To be fair, we weren't told what he was thinking at the time, only what he felt.

 

Also, and this doesn't relate to the method used to bypass his protection, what we've seen in that dream doesn't sit well with what we know of entering another's dreams. Rand is supposed to have near-complete control over his dreams and everyone in them, and anyone entering them should have a hard time just keeping from conforming to Rand's view of them. If indeed it is a trap, then perhaps whichever method was used to get past his wards actually pulled him out of his own dreams and into another's/tel'aran'rhiod/something similar.

[Terez]

Yes, but she also implied that it would be unpleasant, and he didn't notice any pain or anything like that. Also, she said that to him before he really remembered much of Lews Therin's memories. No doubt it would not be so easy for her now that he does

True that.

 

and also, he should have considered that when he saw her in the dream (and he didn't).

To be fair, we weren't told what he was thinking at the time, only what he felt.

No, we were told what he was thinking, and he was thinking it was impossible for anyone to be inside his dream.

 

If indeed it is a trap, then perhaps whichever method was used to get past his wards actually pulled him out of his own dreams and into another's/tel'aran'rhiod/something similar.

My guess is that Moridin pulled Rand into his own dream. He wasn't able to control Rand, but he was able to control the surroundings. He might have created Cyndane out of thin air, or he might have some special access to her soul because of the Mindtrap.

 

I'm hoping that this will be a big clue to Rand that he and Moridin are still linked. There's a good chance of it if he mentions it to Min, since he told her about seeing Moridin in his dream - or at least, that he still lived (as soon as he woke up). He has to figure out why he has to die before too long, or someone does.

[yoniy0]

No, we were told what he was thinking, and he was thinking it was impossible for anyone to be inside his dream.

I guess that's what I get for only listening to the book. I'm reading the ebook now, so when I finish it I might have something more to say on this.

 

My guess is that Moridin pulled Rand into his own dream.

Agreed, that's the most likely scenario. Although, for a time now I've suspected that this place Rand visited in his Ba'alzamon dreams isn't strictly Ishamadin's dreams (or tel'aran'rhiod), but some place influenced by the DO. Perhaps the sort of thing one can find in the general vicinity of SG.

 

He has to figure out why he has to die before too long, or someone does.

Do you see him dying as part of a Light-side plot? I guess Alivia's helping him die does support that view, but it seems more likely that someone kill him for the Shadow ('fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers' - rather than 'be consumed by the Midnight Towers and fall' - seems to imply that the two occur simultaneously rather than his being corrupted by Moridin and someone killing him to restore his mind).

[Terez]

I think that the 'consumed by the Midnight Towers' refers to Moridin taking control of his body via the link, or Rand actually just becoming so much like Moridin as to make little difference. The latter seems unlikely at this point, but there are a few things that might point to it, including Rand's determination to break the seals (let's not hijack the thread for a seals debate, though). It fits the wording of the foreshadowing in TEOTW - 'consuming, merging'.

[yoniy0]

For reasons mentioned above, I have issues with that happening separately from his dying.

[Terez]

To me, it indicates that he has to die because of it, not that it will be simultaneous, partly because the words 'fall' and 'consume' are not as telling as 'his destruction', which is not directly connected to 'consume' (it just follows).

[Dream]

Regarding "consumed by the Midnight Towers" == Moridin taking over Rand's body, how do you explain the plural in Towers?

[Terez]

Egwene's dream does well enough, since Moridin represents all of them. They can't all consume him, and they can't all kill him.

[Dream]

I don't know, that sounds too forced to me.

 

Egwene's dream shows each of the Forsaken are represented by one tower. Moridin doesn't represent the collective. He's just the tallest one of them all. The Midnight Towers are the Forsaken. You are trying to force this general term to mean a specific one.

 

It is possible to be consumed by more than one person just as it is possible to die by wounds sustained from mutiple persons. It seems to me the Broken Wolf (Perrin) will fall by the hand of more than one Forsaken.

[Terez]

I don't know, that sounds too forced to me.

Moridin and Graendal didn't think so when they assumed it referred to Perrin.

[herid]

I don't know, that sounds too forced to me.

 

Egwene's dream shows each of the Forsaken are represented by one tower. Moridin doesn't represent the collective. He's just the tallest one of them all. The Midnight Towers are the Forsaken. You are trying to force this general term to mean a specific one.

 

It is possible to be consumed by more than one person just as it is possible to die by wounds sustained from mutiple persons. It seems to me the Broken Wolf (Perrin) will fall by the hand of more than one Forsaken.

Moridin is the Naeblis . He does represent them all. And it's quite possible that more than one Forsaken will be involved in Rand's death. Say, it's quite likely that Moridin and Cyndane are plotting whatever they are about together. also, we've seen Dreams that resolve somewhat loosely. For example, the dream of Egwene on a headsman's block with someone running hard to save her is almost certainly resolved by Gawyn running to save her from the Bloodknives. But a headsman block means execution and Bloodknives are assassins. There is definitely a difference between execution and assassination.

[Dream]

I don't know, that sounds too forced to me.

Moridin and Graendal didn't think so when they assumed it referred to Perrin.

They were wrong so what they thought is irrelevant.

 

 

I don't know, that sounds too forced to me.

 

Egwene's dream shows each of the Forsaken are represented by one tower. Moridin doesn't represent the collective. He's just the tallest one of them all. The Midnight Towers are the Forsaken. You are trying to force this general term to mean a specific one.

 

It is possible to be consumed by more than one person just as it is possible to die by wounds sustained from mutiple persons. It seems to me the Broken Wolf (Perrin) will fall by the hand of more than one Forsaken.

Moridin is the Naeblis . He does represent them all. And it's quite possible that more than one Forsaken will be involved in Rand's death. Say, it's quite likely that Moridin and Cyndane are plotting whatever they are about together. also, we've seen Dreams that resolve somewhat loosely. For example, the dream of Egwene on a headsman's block with someone running hard to save her is almost certainly resolved by Gawyn running to save her from the Bloodknives. But a headsman block means execution and Bloodknives are assassins. There is definitely a difference between execution and assassination.

When I see a prophecy, each and every word is significant. Therefore, when the prophecy mentions the Midnight Towers, to me the plural is significant. If it had just been the singular Midnight Tower I could easily accept that to mean Moridin. Since it is the plural, I expect more than one Forsaken to be involved.

 

So I wouldn't have any problem if the Midnight Towers refer to Moridin and Cyndane. However, with respect to Moridin "consuming" Rand by taking over his body, that sentence would still be awkward because Cyndane, while active in the plot, isn't doing any "consuming."

 

Lastly, I do see a difference between execution and assassination and I would have a problem with Egwene's dream of a headsman being the Bloodknives, but I also believe that the Bloodknives would have beheaded her so I'm okay with that.

[Terez]

I don't know, that sounds too forced to me.

Moridin and Graendal didn't think so when they assumed it referred to Perrin.

They were wrong so what they thought is irrelevant.

Not completely irrelevant. They are probably much more familiar with the way prophecy works than we are.

 

When I see a prophecy, each and every word is significant. Therefore, when the prophecy mentions the Midnight Towers, to me the plural is significant.

No one said it wasn't significant. We just think that Moridin represents the Midnight Towers. It's less complicated to assume that this explains it than to assume that they will actually be working together for this, especially with their numbers dwindling. However, I don't doubt that Demandred will make a significant play. He just won't be consuming Rand. That is foreshadowed in TEOTW in the context of the inevitable merge with Moridin. But iff you want more than one of them to be involved, then why not Cyndane and Moghedien whose souls are on a string around Moridin's neck? Only Moridin will consume Rand's soul, but those two are extensions of his will, more or less. Not that the others are much less so (especially Graendal now...which just leaves Demandred).

[Dream]

I've thought about Cyndane's (and Moghedien's) connection to Moridin possibly leading to the plural use, but that implies more than one person will take over Rand's body. Any other interpretation is still awkward. I find Moridin==Midnight Towers more acceptable. But I remain unconvinced.

[Incom]

Broken Wolf = Ituralde.

 

I believe Ituralde is referred to as a wolf/wolflike at some point. Can't remember where.

Death has known = how many kills does this guy have under his belt? How many times has he barely escaped death himself?

destruction brings fear to hearts of men = he's been holding out FOREVER against the Shadow. When he finally goes, it'll certainly shake the wills of his allies ("men" doesn't necessarily mean ALL of humanity--it certainly wouldn't shake Moridin's will, for instance--of course, Perrin+Elyas=men and therefore even Hopper could conceivably fit).