Mordeth/Fain is something NEW

[Ananta]

First Rand's wounds, then the cleansing of Saidin... Both indicate that whatever evil is inside Fain will be needed to counter the evil of DO.

 

So yes, I believe that Fain will be very important in the sealing/destruction of DO.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

It would make sense that Mordeth/Fain plays a pivotal role in the defeat of the Dark One. No one in Randland can come even close to mustering the extreme passion, hatred and vile contempt that Mordeth feels towards the Shadow/Dark One. Now with the Fain/Mordeth merge definitely transforming into a dominant Mordeth personality it's going to definitely make sense that his main goal will be to sabotage the Shadow.

 

It's kind of poetic in a way. Mordeth hated the shadow with such vigor that he himself transformed into a being even more evil than the shadow in order to finally vanquish it.

[Malruhn]

May I get all metaphysical here for a moment?

 

Fain is outside the pattern. The DO is outside the pattern. The Creator is outside the pattern.

 

Which patterns?

 

We know about the Wheel of Time... ages fade into new ages, and eventually the Wheel starts over again. Is this the ONLY Wheel? Could this Wheel just be a smaller Wheel in a LARGER Pattern??

 

Imagine if you will, a calendar - an WoT Age equals one month... starting on the 1st and ending on the last day (nice sidestep, eh?). As the Calendar comes to a close, we start it all over again. The analogy I am drawing here is that this Wheel may be just a calendar - and they are about to hit December 31st of 1999 - and a LARGER calendar is about to be started.

 

Okay - work with me here.

 

What if, in this larger Wheel/calendar, there has to be a "reset" button?

 

In my half-baked theory, the DO is totally correct - this Age is the "last" and a NEW PATTERN is going to emerge. This is because either the DO will be victorious (which I doubt), OR, the DO will be slain. It is my opinion that, with all the foreshadowing in Towers of Midnight about absolutely having to have light to have shadow, that a NEW evil dude will be "promoted" to DO status... and this new evil dude will be Fain/Mordeth.

 

It is also my opinion that this "replacement" has happened many times in the past as well... and the DO either doesn't want to or can't remember it... his hatred of Rand overpowers that part of his thought process. I think the last epilogue will be a snippet from a prophecy about this very thing - also alluding to the Greater Pattern that everyone has forgotten.

[mrmadness]

Not to get to existential here but I have a thought with Fain. First the concept of the creator being pure light has always sort of bothered me on a philosophical level. As has been quoted throughout the books there is no light where there are not shadows. By this and other unrelated writings (worldly art of wisdom and Humes’ and Kant’s works) there can be no purely good thing and by the same regard there can be no purely evil thing. That considered then the “Creator” and the DO for all likely iterations must be one and the same, TO A DEGREE. However, if we look at the heave Christian elements that run through this book I do not think it much of a stretch to think that the DO is a “fallen” ‘Dragon.’ Bear with the terminology as I use it for representation of the prior iterations of the wheel not the person. My point is that the DO was a ‘Dragon’ of some age the got corrupted by power or abused it ect ect. This Dragon sought to challenge the creator and was basically cast out of the pattern for his actions. This created an imbalance to the light and darkness, as the creator must be both by default this “DO” would now be tipping the scales. So the pattern now has a need to balance so the whole ‘dragon’ thing really starts. So when we have an age of legends that was all super peaceful so the bore was opened to balance. Now I only explain all this to get to Fain. The pattern has now been woven to support this concept of darkness and the creator is being forced into a pure light side to balance the dark of the DO. So the pattern is creating a “chaotic evil” to balance the spinning of Lawful Good. I think the bore will be sealed and the DO (bear with me) will turn back to the light. This will leave a void for the pattern that Fain will fill in a more official capacity less as a DO but more an extension of the creator. Hopefully I worded this so it makes sense. I realize the concept is a bit existential but to me it fits the classical design of most myths.

 

It's an interesting bit of thought. But how about this. The taint was cleansed because Rand channeled it into Shadar Logoth, and the two evils destroyed each other. Nynaeve learned (through the help of Lews Therin) that a compulsion weave could be removed by laying an opposing weave on top of it, and the two destroy each other. Saidin counterbalances Saidar (and vice versa), and the two coexist. To make this work, my assumption is that the creator and the DO are separate, completely, and pure in their respective elements. That being said, I think fain will interfere with something the DO does (either by canceling or destroying), or destroys the DO. Since there has to be opposition in everything (two opposing forces drive nature), either a new one would have to arise, or an evil would have to be formed by a combination of other "evils" (make your own ideas).

 

Some of the forsaken can't stand the idea of someone else taking down Rand. I doubt the DO would not want to miss his chance and Fain just makes for an interesting mix. He cancels out something, I'm just not sure what. I think Rand uses the DO's own power against him, probably to keep the One Power from being corrupted again. But it's all just thoughts for now...

[mbuehner]

Something else I've been thinking- if Fain is the reason Machin Shin has disappeared from the Ways, could the Shadownspawn ability to now travel the Ways unmolested be a 'new' wildcard as well? Is the army of Trollocs emerging in Caemlyn a major distortion in the pattern?

[Ananta]

Something else I've been thinking- if Fain is the reason Machin Shin has disappeared from the Ways, could the Shadownspawn ability to now travel the Ways unmolested be a 'new' wildcard as well? Is the army of Trollocs emerging in Caemlyn a major distortion in the pattern?

 

Wasn't it Mashadar from Shadar Logoth that is "inside" Fain, not Machin Shin...

[mbuehner]

Something else I've been thinking- if Fain is the reason Machin Shin has disappeared from the Ways, could the Shadownspawn ability to now travel the Ways unmolested be a 'new' wildcard as well? Is the army of Trollocs emerging in Caemlyn a major distortion in the pattern?

 

Wasn't it Mashadar from Shadar Logoth that is "inside" Fain, not Machin Shin...

 

Yeah, but Fain ran into Machin Shin in the Ways when following the group to Shienar, it didn't devour him and he claimed he could understand its voices. From then on Machin Shin has been behaving differently, particularly apparently transferring Fain's hatred to Al Thor to such an extent that its following him around to different Waygates. Perhaps more importantly, Shadowspawn have been able to travel the Ways in huge numbers when that would never have been possible before.

 

So if Fain didn't exist, there couldn't be a huge army of Shadowspawn emerging in Caemlyn right now. Assuming its Fain's influence that has changed the Black Wind, which seems likely.

[Ltsegarra]

Was listening to the dragon mount podcast, and would reiterate what was said, that basically Damendred is either influencing the Black Tower, or involved in some way with the island of madmen, Far Madding and the ways/ and the mad winds of the ways whatever that's called. The discussion involved some discussion about some groups of Trolloc being able to move freely through the Ways and Demandred being in some form of "control".

Anyway, being that Robert Jordan had stated the the existed a difference between mashadar and makin shin, and they were mutually exclusive one really is guessing at the roles that Mordeth is playing. I view Fain as the "wildcard". Sorta like old D&D, you have such a thing as "Lawful-evil" and "chaotic-evil". The Dark One is argued as trying to remake the world in his image existing in a "lawful" world, just his laws. Fain/Mordeth embodies the chaos throwing laws to the side and just reflecting the pain and Hurt he feels back at the world. I'm sure foolishly and chaotic Mordeth/Fain will "challenge" the DO and Rand and be torn between the two. Following my own assutions stated in other posts, I believe Rand will come to house the DOs spirit, if only temp and need both the light and dark to create a new prison for the DO. Maybe, Rand will need to absorb Mordeth essence somehow freeing Fain, and use all these various essences (LewsTherin, Moridin, Mordeth, etc) to recreate the psychic prison.

[Hopefire]

The Dark One is argued as trying to remake the world in his image existing in a "lawful" world, just his laws.

 

I strongly disagree with that. I think that we have sufficient evidence from Moridin's viewpoints, Verin's research, the knowledge of the wolves and of what the Dark One tried to have Rand do to be able to assert that the Dark One doesn't intend to rule a twisted world. He wants to completely destroy the Pattern. Not to create a new one, not to alter the existing one. He wants absolute destruction of all creation.

[Fade]

This IS what the rvidence suggests, but that is pretty damn close to saying that the DO longs for death.

[Nooska]

This IS what the rvidence suggests, but that is pretty damn close to saying that the DO longs for death.

Not death, freedom.

The DO is imprisoned within the pattern, but exists outside of the pattern, so 'he' wouldn't die if the pattern was destroyed, he would be free.

Freedom or death can philosophically be the same dependant on outlook, but with the DO outside the pattern I won't try to speculate what HIS idea is - Moridin clearly equates freedom and death.

[Fade]

Rand will defeat the DO, then Fain will murder Rand. I don't know what'll happen next, but it's the perfect bittersweet ending.

[Nooska]

Rand will defeat the DO, then Fain will murder Rand. I don't know what'll happen next, but it's the perfect bittersweet ending.

And in contradiction with what we know to be true from prophecies and Answers.

[Fade]

which is...?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

This IS what the rvidence suggests, but that is pretty damn close to saying that the DO longs for death.

Not death, freedom.

The DO is imprisoned within the pattern, but exists outside of the pattern, so 'he' wouldn't die if the pattern was destroyed, he would be free.

Freedom or death can philosophically be the same dependant on outlook, but with the DO outside the pattern I won't try to speculate what HIS idea is - Moridin clearly equates freedom and death.

 

 

Well the Wheel is a benign form of enslavement. It forces reality to bend in an infinite loop and never progress forward. Which is so frustratingly pointless in the grander scheme of things that I don't fault Elan/Ishy/Moridin for deciding that liberation from the wheel is necessary at all costs, since an infinite loop with no hope towards evolution or progression is not worth existing.

[Shadowfaxx]

Fain... is building up a force by himself in the Blight. He's corrupted Aiel, for heaven's sake!

Wait... those Aiel that he got in the Blight... didn't RJ say somewhere in TSR that male Aiel who can channel go to the Blight and fight until they die? What if Fain's got male channelers in his army?

Anyways, Fain builds up an army and attacks both Light and Shadow armies. No idea what happens next, but he's going to seek out and try to kill Rand at some point. Probably at the big climax.

Is the whole aMoL going to be a climax? They're basically on the battlefield...

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

However Fain is dying. The Mordeth personality is taking the vassal over. From what we know of Mordeth he hated the Shadow and the Dark One more than any living mortal before him, not many can muster even close to his passion when it comes to the subject of the Shadow. Mordeth doomed an entire city stemming from his unbridled hatred of the shadow. It would not be unfitting for him to be the cause of the shadow's downfall, he is after all a wildcard in this scenario.

[Fade]

Mordeth = more death

[quietstormrico]

I'm fairly sure that Fain was eaten by some monsters in the Blight shortly after the prologue and we're never going to see or hear from him again in the series.

Are you intentionally trying to be funny? The idea that Jordan/Sanderson would kill off a character that has been around since the first book and has had such an impact is HILARIOUS.

[bsmnt23]

OK, back to Fain. I was just reading a LoC chapter from Fain's PoV where he was thinking back to when he was changed by the DO. He also thought about the "tricks" he's been able to do since. Here's the thing: can Fain channel the True Power? It would explain a great many things, as well as fit into the "rules" of the series (he's been a bit of an anomaly ever since he showed up, IMO). It would explain how he could coerece a mydraal, they have a certain hardwiring to obey whoever can use the TP; the ability to "see" darkfriends seems conveyed with the TP, as Rand can sense DFs after he gets the ability to use the TP, most everything else seems to be a variation of compultion and is limited by having to be in physical contact with his target. Isnt one of the more common blocks for men the inability to manage anything at further distances than they can see or physicaly touch? I can see that for Fain, espcialy as he has abosolutly no reference for what has been done to him, and being quite mad besides. ...The zombie trolocs I cant fully explain, but that apeared to be a thing of Mashadar, anyway, I dont see how that changes anything about him being a "Something New". Actualy, I think that reinforces that nothing like Fain has ever happend before, an unholy amalgamation of Dark One power and that wierd mashadar being.

 

...Still think Demandred is a putz.

[Entreri]

possible scenario:

 

Fain is marching to SG, where he expects Rand to be there.

 

Shouldn't Shadar Haran or Moridin try to stop him?

 

 

There should be an epic battle between Rand and Ishamael and one of them dies according to Min's vision, Min does not know which.

 

If that is going to be one epic battle, then the other has to be Shadar Haran vs. Fain. The two evils killing each other off.

 

This leaves the DR 'free' to seal the Bore.

[bsmnt23]

I'd probably pay good money for ringside to see Fain/Mordeth go toe-to-toe with Shadar Haran. Anyone want to set odds on that one? ...'Course ringside might be a pretty dangerous place for that one. Pay-per-View, then.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

If Perrin doesn't get to kill Fain I'm going to be pissed!

[Thorgan]

Somebody should really ask about those two seemingly contraticting quotes, one saying this cycle of the pattern is the same and the other saying Fain is unique to this age.

[Nightstrike]

Somebody should really ask about those two seemingly contraticting quotes, one saying this cycle of the pattern is the same and the other saying Fain is unique to this age.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.

Fain is one of these changes, so I say there is no contradiction.