Rand's Waaayy too Strong

[NetSlider]

After "Strom of Light" I really don't see anyone being as strong as Rand, and I mean anyone (than or now; even LTT). We don't know if he used object of power or not, but it seems he didn't. So, who, besides GLotG, can stand up to him? IMO, no one. Until ToM I thought Ishy, but now...

 

Thought?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Well, he IS supposed to fight the Dark One, and not the Dark One's minions....

[Mats Spare Hat]

I don't think it' so terrible he's so wicked powerful, at this point. Taking into consideration that tGS, ToM, and AMoL are three parts to what was supposed to have been one big book, then Rand's just getting to that level in the very last book of the series - which makes sense.

 

On the flip side the Shadow's had 13 Forsaken across the entire series at the height of their power. What was it, Ishamael and Demandred were within a hair of LTT/Rand's channeling ability? Anyway, point being even if you're that powerful in the power some farmer can come along, or a Moiraine can balefire you when you aren't looking, that kind of deal.

 

It is kind of a buzzkill though, from having the tension of will he finally snap and go dark-rand. Granted it's fun to see him have it all together in the head, and all the things he does in ToM.

 

I dunno, I think it makes him a little more boring now. I liked the constant internal struggle for his own sanity angle

[NetSlider]

I actually see him as less boring. I mean, the man REMEMBERS AoL...that's crazy cool! The whole emo-Rand started to get on my nerve there. I do agree with the timing, having him like this at the end is perfect. The man is truly the DRAGON now!

[ShenAnCalhar]

I actually see him as less boring. I mean, the man REMEMBERS AoL...that's crazy cool! The whole emo-Rand started to get on my nerve there. I do agree with the timing, having him like this at the end is perfect. The man is truly the DRAGON now!

But he isn't just the Dragon - he's something else entirely. Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

This seems off, unless you consider the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn as two distinctly separate entities within a single turning of the Wheel. The original Dragon never heard voices from a past life, or integrated with a past life. Their functions are different (sealing the bore and giving rise to the taint vs. rebuilding the prison (or slaying the DO?) and cleansing the taint). Each is half a cycle, rather than a single cycle repeated. I'm not entirely sure if the amalgam of Rand and LTT justifies the drastic gain in power that we've seen, but you could argue that his little revelation did something that opened him to a ridiculous amount of raw power for the master (LTT) to weave.

 

But I'm rambling at this point - New Rand definitely kicks ass.

[Vlad]

Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

I kinda thought that his lack of concern stemmed from him knowing the pattern would bend to his will rather than his mega-channeling powers. Just my take.

[NetSlider]

Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

I kinda thought that his lack of concern stemmed from him knowing the pattern would bend to his will rather than his mega-channeling powers. Just my take.

 

Same here. I took it as something to do with taveren.

[Darth Krewl]

Well, entire cities were completely wiped out of the Pattern with balefire during the War of the Shadow and to my understanding, those were supposed to be megalopolises as large as New York, London, Tokyo, Mexico City or Beijing, for instance.

 

Maybe this was done via circles or through the use of power-enhancing angreal devices. But still, when you take that into consideration and compare it to Rand wiping out few hundred thousands of Trollocs, I don't find it that shocking or far-fetched.

 

What's more, we have no way of knowing if Lews Therin was able to do the same exact thing --or if he was even responsible for the b'firing of some of those cities-- during the AoL. IMO, being capable of raising a volcano of the proportions of Dragonmount from the ground is a pretty impressive feat by itself that, IMO, does rival what Rand did when he came in Ituralde's aid.

[James71]

I actually see him as less boring. I mean, the man REMEMBERS AoL...that's crazy cool! The whole emo-Rand started to get on my nerve there. I do agree with the timing, having him like this at the end is perfect. The man is truly the DRAGON now!

 

That is why it cannot last. Having him always be ZenRand and all powerful would become boring.

He is like an Olympic athlete that is peaking at just the right time.

It is impossible to maintain that level of performance over a long period.

 

He needs to die at the end of AMOL or somehow be drastically reduced in power if he lives.

Having an all powerful Dragon after the Last Battle would be lame.

[ShenAnCalhar]

A valid point with the ta'veren comments, I agree that could totally explain his ease around the Aes Sedai.

 

But I did always assume that cities getting taken out in the AoL involved circles and sa'angreal, and perhaps hundreds (thousands?) of channelers - there were a lot more of them before the theorized "winnowing." Look at was LTT was able to do when he seized the power from Rand and made Deathgates/Blossoms of Fire - that was a lot of Trollocs, but as I read it, a mere fraction of what Rand decimated in A Storm of Light. And as Logain put it, it was a "close run thing." Also, there are many channelers who are ostensibly very close to Rand's level. Could Nynaeve or Alivia (Nynaeve proven to be on par with the Chosen, and Alivia stronger) take out a couple hundred thousand trollocs unlinked without angreals? The indication I get is, absolutely not.

 

I'm not saying his ta'veren nature doesn't play a role, but I do think that he is insanely more powerful than any channeler alive or in memory, including LTT. Keep in mind, LTT said he wore the first Paralis net - who knows what kind of angreals/sa'angreals he had on that thing, or elsewhere on his person when he created Dragonmount.

[James71]

But he isn't just the Dragon - he's something else entirely. Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

Rand knew that he could use the TP to deal with an AS shield of the OP. He had the experience of doing it to Semi even when under the control of the male collar.

So with that experience, he can walk into the WT and allow them to shield him with no concern. He will have the element of surprise with the TP as his backup.

Until he does it once and they know that a 13 Aes Sedai shield is useless.

 

ZenRand also knows that the time for hiding is done. The meeting at the Last Battle is going to happen. The opportunity to kill Rand early is past.

Rand mentioned this during ToM. He knows that the pattern is already set that will get him there.

So knowing this, walking into the WT is no longer a threat. They were all powerless to stop Rand. They could barely move in his presense.

Anyone with bad intentions would likely be overcome with an anxiety attack and freeze.

 

I'm not entirely sure if the amalgam of Rand and LTT justifies the drastic gain in power that we've seen, but you could argue that his little revelation did something that opened him to a ridiculous amount of raw power for the master (LTT) to weave.

 

I think we are observing three things.

1) Rand peaking at just the right time before the Last Battle.

2) Rand gaining full access to LTT memories and experience with AOL knowledge, history and OP skill.

3) Rand's ta'veren ability is REALLY strong right now to make sure that nothing gets in the way of the key events that are destined. They are on a tight schedule and cannot tolerate any major delays.

[NetSlider]

I actually see him as less boring. I mean, the man REMEMBERS AoL...that's crazy cool! The whole emo-Rand started to get on my nerve there. I do agree with the timing, having him like this at the end is perfect. The man is truly the DRAGON now!

 

That is why it cannot last. Having him always be ZenRand and all powerful would become boring.

He is like an Olympic athlete that is peaking at just the right time.

It is impossible to maintain that level of performance over a long period.

 

He needs to die at the end of AMOL or somehow be drastically reduced in power if he lives.

Having an all powerful Dragon after the Last Battle would be lame.

 

Completely agree

[Darth Krewl]

But I did always assume that cities getting taken out in the AoL involved circles and sa'angreal, and perhaps hundreds (thousands?) of channelers - there were a lot more of them before the theorized "winnowing." Look at was LTT was able to do when he seized the power from Rand and made Deathgates/Blossoms of Fire - that was a lot of Trollocs, but as I read it, a mere fraction of what Rand decimated in A Storm of Light. And as Logain put it, it was a "close run thing." Also, there are many channelers who are ostensibly very close to Rand's level. Could Nynaeve or Alivia (Nynaeve proven to be on par with the Chosen, and Alivia stronger) take out a couple hundred thousand trollocs unlinked without angreals? The indication I get is, absolutely not.

 

The key word here is "assume". We can only assume how the destruction of entire huge cities was accomplished during the AoL because, to my knowledge at least, the best source of information on the War of Power comes in the BWB and that is in the form of a brief recap, only. All we've been told about all that is mention of balefire used to wipe out those cities, not how many people, angreals or other devices unique to that age were used to do it. Still, given the number of channelers in the world (1-2% of the general population), the fact that they had split between the two warring factions and that they'd all be spread out to fight in battlefields all over the place, one would think it almost impossible to gather hundreds --much less thousands-- of channelers just to wipe out a certain place at a time.

 

Maybe what we're seeing Rand doing now is stuff that was known by channelers from the Age of Legends, that no one in the Third Age is capable of (yet), simply because they don't know about all that stuff. In fact, this has been a recurring theme throughout the entire series (rediscovering weaves not seen since the AoL). And, since Logain belongs to the Third Age, this explains why he would find Rand's accomplishments such a "close run thing". Then again, maybe it's all new stuff that Rand's picked up after his epiphany, granted to him by the will of the Wheel, the Light or the Creator so he can fulfill his destiny.

 

Either way, WoT is the typical take on the "Hero's Quest" and Rand is the archetype of the hero on the quest. It's not Alivia, Nynaeve, the Forsaken or anyone else. So, it's only natural that he'd be the most powerful amongst all good and bad guys alike, except for his nemesis and antagonist. It's only obvious that he'd peak at the end of the story (just like Luke, Neo, Potter, et. al.) and that he'd be no easy pickings for the Dark One.

[benny the ball]

"Rand knew that he could use the TP to deal with an AS shield of the OP. He had the experience of doing it to Semi even when under the control of the male collar.

So with that experience, he can walk into the WT and allow them to shield him with no concern. He will have the element of surprise with the TP as his backup.

Until he does it once and they know that a 13 Aes Sedai shield is useless."

 

Sorry James71 but RJ or BS told us that if yours shielded from the OP your Shielded from the TP too. Semi's dominion gave her conrol of rands body and his abillity with Sadin only to my knowledge(which has been wrong mannnny times in the past)

 

Hower to offer a counter arguement i did one time point out that rand had no trouble shielding men but had a hell of a time doing it to women (the weave he used on men didn't work on women at all) so maybe theres a few different ways that women do it.

[James71]

 

Sorry James71 but RJ or BS told us that if yours shielded from the OP your Shielded from the TP too. Semi's dominion gave her conrol of rands body and his abillity with Sadin only to my knowledge(which has been wrong mannnny times in the past)

 

Really? I was not aware that this had been clarified by RJ or BS.

So be it if that is the word for higher up.

 

My initial thought would be that since the male collar didn't stop the TP and since the Far Madding Guardian doesn't block the TP, thus a shield from Saidar designed for Saidin would also not block the TP.

[TheAngryDruid]

I think the post about Rand's knowledge and skill going up now that the "remembers" the AOL is the big thing.

 

I can remember a comment from aCoS where one of the Asha'man said to Rand that Sammael could have torn apart the entire army w/out them there, and he wasn't sure that he wouldn't succeed in doing so before he got back.

 

We've never really seen the Forsaken go head to head with a large bunch of non-channelers before. Other than that. Most times they are worried about staying hidden, don't want to wield the OP too openly to announce who they are, or are worried about another channeler taking them out (Light or Chosen) to fully unleash. And most of Rand's attacks have been more raids (Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael) or one on one's than the whole army vs. a Forsaken head on. The brief encounter with Sammael at the forts and Rahvin tearing apart the raid are the closest we've come.

[moratcorlm]

Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him.

If you accept Construct Theory, Lews Therin was expressing Rand's concerns, not those of an independent personality, and Rand did not have complete knowledge of his last life at that time.

I can remember a comment from aCoS where one of the Asha'man said to Rand that Sammael could have torn apart the entire army w/out them there, and he wasn't sure that he wouldn't succeed in doing so before he got back.

 

We've never really seen the Forsaken go head to head with a large bunch of non-channelers before.

This is an excellent point. The Trollocs Rand destroyed at Maradon had absolutely no defense against him. Even the weakest channeler can kill another channeler, which fact changes the dynamics of a fight between two channelers considerably. There's nothing in the books which suggests that any of the Forsaken couldn't singlehandedly destroy an army.

Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

I kinda thought that his lack of concern stemmed from him knowing the pattern would bend to his will rather than his mega-channeling powers. Just my take.

I agree with as well. And here's what Jordan said about shielding the True Power:

Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

[A Rant Lord]

I think LTT might have been worried about 4/5 AS shielding him, because first: He is mad. second: Maybe he thinks of AoL AS. Anyway I think Rand got really cool this last book. Not until Graendal mentioned how hard it was to kill a Ta'veren (perrin) I was beginning to see that Ta'veren is pretty awsome. It's not only people doing as you please etc. but also arrows shot from affar missing you, girls hooking up with you(Mat) and maybe even Ishi vs. Rand, balanced, oh knows ishi! a dead draghkar fell on top of you and kissed you!:| And then people go all like ROFL! that Rand is a lucky son of a gun! I was rooting for Ishi there!:D

[mbuehner]

There's a theory that Rand's sword is an angreal. Just sayin.

[draconian]

i think the shear # of flows and weaves and there precise use was is what made them so effective. example no weaves were wasted of the towers. dividing flows a dozen times is suppose tobe insanely hard which rand in the 4th book. egwene was using in TGS maybe 2 or 3 weaves at 1 time. maybe its a talent or training and aptitude the has dragon that lets him divide flows so much b/c i dont think angreal make dividing flows any easier and he was using 100s i think.

[Ala Rubra]

Still, given the number of channelers in the world (1-2% of the general population), the fact that they had split between the two warring factions and that they'd all be spread out to fight in battlefields all over the place, one would think it almost impossible to gather hundreds --much less thousands-- of channelers just to wipe out a certain place at a time.

 

Do you realize just how significant a percentage like 1-2% is when we're dealing with an entire world's population? If there were 10 billion people at the time that the WoP started(a very conservative estimate), that would result in over 100 million channelers. With roughly 50 million on each side, I would not be surprised at all if there were battles over important cities that had thousands of channelers on each side.

[haloun]

i have brought this up in other threads, but i think some of rands power, is because of his special link to T'A'R, doesnt have to channel the TP anymore, because he is so taveren that he is in BOTH places at once!

[Darth Krewl]

Do you realize just how significant a percentage like 1-2% is when we're dealing with an entire world's population? If there were 10 billion people at the time that the WoP started(a very conservative estimate), that would result in over 100 million channelers. With roughly 50 million on each side, I would not be surprised at all if there were battles over important cities that had thousands of channelers on each side.

 

Yes, I can obviously do the math. Just like I can realize that everything is proportionate to its size. A huge world, filled with megalopolises with tens of millions of people, spread out all across the globe would still require for channelers from both sides to spread around and form different fronts, according to the needs presented by the war itself. The actual number of the population is irrelevant, because the percentage of channelers among them would remain the same, whether there were 6 billion people (like in the real world) or 100 billion.

 

I also know a little about military strategy to remain mindful of the fact that you don't put all or most of your eggs in one basket, lest you want to risk breaking them all. And, since I believe it safe to say that channelers would be the most valuable members of both armies, it would be folly putting a whole bunch of them together at one single spot and at the same time, running the risk of suffering casualties that could turn devastating to your cause.

 

I agree that the importance of some battles could have required a larger number of channelers present due to strategic importance. But, let's look at the most important battle of them all, shall we? The strike on Shayol Ghul. Now, how many channelers did Lews Therin take with him? A mighty ONE HUNDRED men? How many non-channelers in his ranks? Ten thousand? And they were marching towards the enemy's stronghold. They needed stealth, granted, but still wouldn't you think that the number was too small for a mission of such vital importance?

 

In that case, I'd say the numbers are totally against the idea of thousands and thousands of channelers fighting at the same place and the same time too often. Simple as that. Unfortunately, since this information is too vague and we have nothing to rely on other than our own personal interpretation of the events, then I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

[capeta]

They way I Read veins of gold and also the way the phrase of the prophecy "the many become one". That coupled with the comment that Rand made to the farmer in the apples chapter at the start of ToM. I think if Rand thinks about it he can dig up memory from all of his lives, not just Lewis Therin's. I think that with that comes a lot greater understanding of the power and deftness at wielding it. whose to say in A Storm of Light he wasn't tieing off those weaves so that they would traval to a certain location and dissipate.

 

lets say Rand can only maintain 20 or so weaves at a time but if he sends out wave after wave of 20 tied off weaves with precision and dexterity... it doesn't mean he is more powerful it just means he is much better at using the power he is allotted.

 

-Cap

[gary0044187]

He needs to die at the end of AMOL or somehow be drastically reduced in power if he lives.

Having an all powerful Dragon after the Last Battle would be lame.

It has been said by AS in the series that Taveren only lasts as long as needed. After winning the battle, Rand will probably only be Taveren for a short time there after. After that point he will just be another Powerful OP user. Well, an incredibly well trained OP user. But, with the advances they are making now, I expect many OP users close to rand's level of mastery by the time he dies.