Why has no one thought of this?

[username13]

Here's a thought. When the bore was originaly bored, releasing the DO by accident, didn't most chanellers way back then know at least something about Balefire? If so, why wouldn't they just balefire the idiot who opened the bore, thus undoing the act and preventing the dork one from ever escaping in the first place? I'm sure they could have justified sacraficing that one person to save millions.

 

A. We would have no series

B. Would have needed to be a pretty big bit of balefire to go abck for enough. Originally people in the AoL didn't know what was going on. The Collapse lasted years, from the time of the Bore being open to the War of Power beginning it was over a hundred years. At some point during this time they identified that it was the Dark One at work, but it wasn't for a while, they only saw a degeneration of society in general.

[moratcorlm]

So they can create energy. They weave it from the OP.

Jordan and Sanderson have both said that conservation of energy is ultimately not violated. Jordan probably had an explanation for that.

If you were to place this weave to the bottom of a cart then much like the way a Mono-rail works it would be floating on a bed of air. It's not a big leap to see what the windfinders do with pushing the wind to be translated to a frictionless ship soaring through "weaves" of force pushing all other forces way.

Are you under the impression that magnetic levitation or even hovercrafts "destroy friction"? If so, you are mistaken.

[Adamdidit]

I think it might be more feasible for channelers to use lines of fire vs, hordes of trollocs and still be more effective than balls of fire

[Byzantine279]

There are certainly more effective ways to use the OP, just like there are for all forms of magic. We can groan all we like, our society has fiction, and huge amounts of it, we have countless examples of things to draw upon. Such as, why not use weaves to air and fire to create massive explosions? (This would be accomplished by creating ultra-dense air, which Rand shows is possible in TGS, and then simply touching it with a bit of fire. Remember what happens when fire hits ultra concentrated oxygen, though it would be somewhat weaker due to the nitrogen it wouldn't stop it from exploding). Or, use weaves of earth to box in the enemy, and then hit them with an explosion inside the box, the walls would amplify the effect massively. Why not reduce the temperate of the air, or of the water in someone's body to simply freeze enemies? It doesn't need to be fatal, just enough that it burns them/causes their armor to burn them. Good luck fighting with frost burns. and why make lightning in the sky? You can create the charge difference anywhere with the OP, since it can exist anywhere in reality, so why not create lightning in the middle of their army, and create a chain of charges that draws the lightning across their entire army, one bolt of lighting has enoguh enemy to kill a lot of people, send it through an army and they won't do so well.

 

Also, there is water in people, and water can be controlled through simple weaves. Why not simply make all the water in their body try to leave? That will be more than enough to be fatal. We know weaves can be used to change the height of the earth, so why not use it to pull the earth down, then cover over the top, and trap the enemy inside.

 

I could go on, but I think I've proved my point, they could obviously channel stronger attacks, and perhaps use even less energy doing so, but they simply don't think the proper way to do so.

[Canis Rufus]

So they can create energy. They weave it from the OP.

Jordan and Sanderson have both said that conservation of energy is ultimately not violated. Jordan probably had an explanation for that.

If you were to place this weave to the bottom of a cart then much like the way a Mono-rail works it would be floating on a bed of air. It's not a big leap to see what the windfinders do with pushing the wind to be translated to a frictionless ship soaring through "weaves" of force pushing all other forces way.

Are you under the impression that magnetic levitation or even hovercrafts "destroy friction"? If so, you are mistaken.

 

 

The example was simplified for the consideration of mass readers. And yes it is in a since destroying friction as it is lessening the amount of friction that the “hover craft” has so there is a layer of friction gone. To completely spell it out, by all accounts they control air. If you can control its “place” then you can remove it from a place. That would be creating a perfect void. By all standards a perfect void is “frictionless.” So with a weave they can put something into a perfect void and move the void allowing for the item inside being frictionless. Next even if we go with the crazy notion that a tied of weave of air cannot move then they could very simply create a tunneled void. (I think you can see where this is going.)

 

"Jordan probably had an explanation for that." Probably is not a definite. While I love Jordan’s work he was a history buff and it shows in his writings they are wonderful for this attention to social and political detail. However, Jordan was not a physicist nor would I want him to be but I seriously doubt that the idea ever crossed his mind. Much easier to simple say ‘it’s not important.’ More likely the OP was a vehicle to tell a story and he has used as such, without thought to the “energy” creation problem. No my friend that is place for fans like myself to pick at after their fourth or fifth read though. Again please understand I love the books but the OP is ridiculously overpowered, to an extent that it is almost comical at times.

 

Ponder the dilemma of a bridge that has been balefired after a villain passes. If the bridge wasn’t there 15mins ago would the villain have passed? No, So now where is the Villain, are they aware of the change? If they never crossed then they would not be innately aware the bridge is gone. This raises many issues. What of the energy used to cross the bridge, fight and basically exists, would our villain have all that back? If not where did it go and why? The idea is known as entropy or basically the second law of thermo dynamics the energy has to go somewhere if not you have destroyed it or more importantly recreated it.

[moratcorlm]

The example was simplified for the consideration of mass readers.

Sure, but there's nothing physically impossible about this. Reducing friction by cushioning on a bed of air is not simply waving one's hand and changing an object's coefficient of friction to zero, which is a possible interpretation of what you said. That doesn't seem to be what you meant; I apologize.

"Jordan probably had an explanation for that." Probably is not a definite. While I love Jordan’s work he was a history buff and it shows in his writings they are wonderful for this attention to social and political detail. However, Jordan was not a physicist nor would I want him to be but I seriously doubt that the idea ever crossed his mind.

Actually he was; his degree was in physics and he worked as a nuclear engineer.

[Canis Rufus]

The example was simplified for the consideration of mass readers.

Sure, but there's nothing physically impossible about this. Reducing friction by cushioning on a bed of air is not simply waving one's hand and changing an object's coefficient of friction to zero, which is a possible interpretation of what you said. That doesn't seem to be what you meant; I apologize.

"Jordan probably had an explanation for that." Probably is not a definite. While I love Jordan’s work he was a history buff and it shows in his writings they are wonderful for this attention to social and political detail. However, Jordan was not a physicist nor would I want him to be but I seriously doubt that the idea ever crossed his mind.

Actually he was; his degree was in physics and he worked as a nuclear engineer.

 

 

Really I had always thought he was a history teacher. I swear that's what I read in one of the dust jackets. But I digress, my point is that the books where written from an historical perspective not a scientific one so I would assume that the power issue was not important to the main plot, nor really considered in the grand scheme of the books. While my example falls embarrassingly short now I still hold to my theory, the OP was not really fleshed out in terms of energy consumption and balance but rather used as a plot device that has unfortunately resulted in some paradoxes and an extremely unbalanced system. As a reader I constantly sit in awe at the lack of problem solving ability by any of the OP wielders.

[Tom Sawyer]

There are a lot of uses that people aren't using. The biggest thing that bugged me was in the attack on Algarin's mansion, nobody threw up a wall. Why not put up a wall infront of the Trollocs to slow them down? Or rip open the ground so that there's a 30 foot deep trench infront of them? There were all these offensive spells everyone was casting, but nobody seemed to give much of a thought to defense.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

“In physics, energy (from Greek ἐνέργεια - energeia, "activity, operation", from ἐνεργός - energos, "active, working"[1]) is a quantity that is often understood as the ability a physical system has to produce changes on another physical system[2][3].

The changes are produced when the energy is tranferred from a system to another. A system can transfer energy by means of three ways, namely: physical or thermodynamical work, heat and, mass transfer.

This quantity can be assigned to any physical system. The assigned energy, according to Classical Physics, depends on its physical state relative to the reference frame used to study it.”

 

So they can create energy. They weave it from the OP.

 

As for the air weaves. Let me clarify that what the weaves do is HOLD the molecules of air IN PLACE, which makes them act like invisible binders and ropes that hold the object in place. They do NOT destroy friction.

 

Then how do the Windfinders push the ships and If they hold the air in place then how in several places through out the book have they bound or gagged someone with air and then transport them to another location. If your concept held then the moment you tried to move then they would either rip in half or break the weave. What they have done is created a "force" of energy that holds something beyond the normal enviromental effects. If you were to place this weave to the bottom of a cart then much like the way a Mono-rail works it would be floating on a bed of air. It's not a big leap to see what the windfinders do with pushing the wind to be translated to a frictionless ship soaring through "weaves" of force pushing all other forces way.

 

Hahaha.

 

You obviously haven't read the books properly. Windfinders to not PUSH ships using weaves of air. They use entirely different weaves consisting of Air and Water to redistribute moisture and air pressure and thus creating a wind. In this sense, the One Power does not create the wind energy. The One Power supplies the energy used to reverse entropy and create such phenomena.

 

As for how my theory would work when you lift a person or gag them or whatever, the answer stares at you in the face. The air, being held together by the weave, is unbreakable. And when the weave is moved, the air molecules held in place MOVE ALONG WITH THE WEAVE. When these molecules move with the weave, they carry the thing they hold along with it. The concept that you missed is that the air molecules are held together by the weave and cannot be moved by external forces.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Here's a thought. When the bore was originaly bored, releasing the DO by accident, didn't most chanellers way back then know at least something about Balefire? If so, why wouldn't they just balefire the idiot who opened the bore, thus undoing the act and preventing the dork one from ever escaping in the first place? I'm sure they could have justified sacraficing that one person to save millions.

 

A. We would have no series

B. Would have needed to be a pretty big bit of balefire to go abck for enough. Originally people in the AoL didn't know what was going on. The Collapse lasted years, from the time of the Bore being open to the War of Power beginning it was over a hundred years. At some point during this time they identified that it was the Dark One at work, but it wasn't for a while, they only saw a degeneration of society in general.

 

Not to mention that the Dark one is also outside the pattern so the actions of the dark one wouldn't be reversed in any case. i think.

 

but if that fails they all went instantly insane anyways so i doubt anyone of them would have had enough rational thought to come up with something like that so quickly.

[Dysaster]

there is so much that could be done with the OP defensively OR offensively that no one does or thinks about in the series

 

deathgates etc,

 

but one of the most effective uses would be a relatively simple "sword" of air.. nothing says a sword cannot be 20' long.

 

no need to hold it either, no need to make it "visible" just a thin blade of air as strong and as long & spinning as fast as you can make it, going across a battlefield at knee height.

 

using earth to make chasms in the ground, or raise up defensive walls.

 

 

we all focus on the more "traditional" magic effects, fireballs etc. but a 3' blade of air spinning would be Devestating- think lawnmower

[Canis Rufus]

“In physics, energy (from Greek ἐνέργεια - energeia, "activity, operation", from ἐνεργός - energos, "active, working"[1]) is a quantity that is often understood as the ability a physical system has to produce changes on another physical system[2][3].

The changes are produced when the energy is tranferred from a system to another. A system can transfer energy by means of three ways, namely: physical or thermodynamical work, heat and, mass transfer.

This quantity can be assigned to any physical system. The assigned energy, according to Classical Physics, depends on its physical state relative to the reference frame used to study it.”

 

So they can create energy. They weave it from the OP.

 

As for the air weaves. Let me clarify that what the weaves do is HOLD the molecules of air IN PLACE, which makes them act like invisible binders and ropes that hold the object in place. They do NOT destroy friction.

 

Then how do the Windfinders push the ships and If they hold the air in place then how in several places through out the book have they bound or gagged someone with air and then transport them to another location. If your concept held then the moment you tried to move then they would either rip in half or break the weave. What they have done is created a "force" of energy that holds something beyond the normal enviromental effects. If you were to place this weave to the bottom of a cart then much like the way a Mono-rail works it would be floating on a bed of air. It's not a big leap to see what the windfinders do with pushing the wind to be translated to a frictionless ship soaring through "weaves" of force pushing all other forces way.

 

Hahaha.

 

You obviously haven't read the books properly. Windfinders to not PUSH ships using weaves of air. They use entirely different weaves consisting of Air and Water to redistribute moisture and air pressure and thus creating a wind. In this sense, the One Power does not create the wind energy. The One Power supplies the energy used to reverse entropy and create such phenomena.

 

As for how my theory would work when you lift a person or gag them or whatever, the answer stares at you in the face. The air, being held together by the weave, is unbreakable. And when the weave is moved, the air molecules held in place MOVE ALONG WITH THE WEAVE. When these molecules move with the weave, they carry the thing they hold along with it. The concept that you missed is that the air molecules are held together by the weave and cannot be moved by external forces.

 

( I can be snippy too, watch.)

 

(Clear throat) Ok, "obviously" Cite it. Book and page please, and go ahead and give the whole quote because if we're thinking of the same example then it is likely you that 'can't read properly.'

 

 

Based on your second statement you’re only proving my point. (See the vacuum and friction concepts.) Perhaps this is just a failure of lexicon. When I say energy I am speaking in the classical concept, I tried to DEFINE that to help the general gist of the concept but I see that has failed to help you. I cannot try to defend that which you don’t grasp and I am unable to convey to you any better than I have attempted. Suffice to say you just defined and supported every concept I proposed.

 

The Concept you missed right in your face is that if no outside force can affect it, “air molecules are held together by the weave and cannot be moved by external forces” then it defeats friction. That is unless you are considering the weave a form of friction? (Which, if you do then you’ve only proven again that they are creating energy. ) If it can defeat all external friction yet exists then by its very nature it is creating energy. (See the concept of entropy) These are they very building blocks of perpetual motion, the holy grail of mechanical engineering. Finally (and purely working of your statement here) "no external force" would include time which would say again they have defeated or destroyed time.

 

 

Now in a less snippy fashion, you may want to look back over your ideas because while it supports my theory beautifully I would never rely on it or use it. You see your definition by default is a paradox. First you don’t “reverse entropy” entropy simply is there is no forward or backwards it is the balancing or potentially transferring of energy. You do not undrink milk, you can throw it up but you did not undrink it, you moved it through several different phases. (Well unless we Balefire the milk and then you would again have to admit that I am right.) Next your concept on how an air weaves works is, well just not really supported by anything. I am not going to completely tear it apart but I am at a loss for any example to support the concept that nothing but the weave can move the weave. I would love a book and page example of this. I would also appreciate if we could continue this debate in a less condescending tone. I appreciate you may not agree with me and I enjoy the opportunity to learn your view point. I do not enjoy snippy conversations I tried to make this one a joke, save you did not intend your words to come out so poorly.

 

[Jblaylock]

Okay, I guess now that I think about it, the most obvious missues, or lack of use, of the one power has to do with Healing, or the opposite of it.

 

If Aes'sedai can Heal, use the power on microscopic levels to draw out poisons, germs, bacteria, illnesses, whatever, like micro surgions, and do it in a matter of seconds, then why don't they simply use the same power, or combination of powers, to go in microscopicaly and screw things around: move this here, that there, twist that, pinch that off, and bada bing bada boom, you've got a dead or dying enemy in a matter of seconds, and no mess to clean up, no fire damage to trees, fields, or houses, no bits and pieces of bodies littering the place, and no screwing with the pattern.

[graendalzooescapee]

“In physics, energy (from Greek ἐνέργεια - energeia, "activity, operation", from ἐνεργός - energos, "active, working"[1]) is a quantity that is often understood as the ability a physical system has to produce changes on another physical system[2][3].

The changes are produced when the energy is tranferred from a system to another. A system can transfer energy by means of three ways, namely: physical or thermodynamical work, heat and, mass transfer.

This quantity can be assigned to any physical system. The assigned energy, according to Classical Physics, depends on its physical state relative to the reference frame used to study it.”

 

OK, this isn't relevant to WOT, but, Canis Rufus. . .you have a Latin handle, you seem to have a decent (at least) grasp of Ancient Greek--so what do you do? Are you a professional classicist of some kind, or a Classics major still very into it in free time?

[moratcorlm]

Which, if you do then you’ve only proven again that they are creating energy.

They are introducing energy into the local system that was not there. That does not mean they create the energy; the very term "channeling" implies that they are conduits to another place, another system.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

not to mention that erasing the effects of a persons actions and "undoing" them are different.

 

Balefire makes it as if you never committed the first act "say drinking the milk"

Where as undoing an act means that you undo what has first been done. so you would have to have actually drank the milk for it to be undone.

 

take tying shoelaces. i can tie them up and untie them, but if i balefired something that effected the shoelaces and cause them to untie then i never actually tied them in the first instance, there was nothing to "undo"

[Canis Rufus]

OK, this isn't relevant to WOT, but, Canis Rufus. . .you have a Latin handle, you seem to have a decent (at least) grasp of Ancient Greek--so what do you do? Are you a professional classicist of some kind, or a Classics major still very into it in free time?

 

No, I am neither but thank you for the compliment. I studied Latin for years and (due to school) translated the Iliad and the Odyssey but it was only to get a better grasp of language at large. I am actually an accountant that due to a fluke of interest and “elective” course requirements at my Uni was one class shy of an “under graduate degree” or “subdegree” in astrophysics (not sure where you’re from and what they would call it there). Basically while I was getting my accounting studies done I took a lot of classes in astronomy and physics that I really didn’t need but was able to use as “elective” classes and one that I was able to get a waive for to count as a history class for my core. Would have loved to become a physicist but well I love money too.

 

Which, if you do then you’ve only proven again that they are creating energy.

They are introducing energy into the local system that was not there. That does not mean they create the energy; the very term "channeling" implies that they are conduits to another place, another system.

 

I agree with your statement but disagree with your intent. You seem to be implying that while they are introducing energy as a conduit they are not creating energy. I agree they are a conduit and they are introducing the energy but the very idea of the OP is that it is the “one” power. My concept holds that the OP must be some sort of state of pre-energy I draw short of saying a form of kinetic as they have to “weave” it to do anything. So while it is stored it is not yet energy, I liken this to the sperm and egg neither one is life until it is combined with the other. This is not like plugging into an outlet but more like a “Cause one,” or rather to say a true “first action.” (See Newton’s third law, with Einstein’s concept of the “First Cause.”)

 

 

not to mention that erasing the effects of a persons actions and "undoing" them are different.

 

Balefire makes it as if you never committed the first act "say drinking the milk"

Where as undoing an act means that you undo what has first been done. so you would have to have actually drank the milk for it to be undone.

 

take tying shoelaces. i can tie them up and untie them, but if i balefired something that effected the shoelaces and cause them to untie then i never actually tied them in the first instance, there was nothing to "undo"

 

I agree there was nothing to undo, so where is the energy you spent doing it? Are we to assume it is gone? Or are we to assume it was spent and now destroyed? Either way you choose to look at it Balefire creates a major paradox to the concept of energy. We cannot simply untie the shoe, if you will, without doubling the energy output it took to tie the shoe. Say one joule to tie and one to untie so it would take to for the entire process. If we were to simply say ‘well it never happened,’ then it leaves the problem of what happened to the energy that was spent tying the shoe. Whichever conclusion you wish to side on it supports my claim that they are creating energy. If it has already been spent then they resurrected it or recreated the spent energy. If they simply undid the actions then the energy needed to undo the action was never required but the time has passed and the action is undone, this would put us back to breaking our second law of thermodynamics. (Perhaps I misunderstood your post and you were agreeing with me?)

[Nae Bliss]

They're not thinking with portals.

 

 

I don't know if anyone else will get the reference...

 

 

INFINATE PORTAL LOOP!

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

We erase time and undue current events.

 

Thats what i was arguing is false. you dont undo current events, they just dont occur.

 

and you dont erase time, you erase a timeline (perse)

 

take this scenario ... A group of people a gathered and rand pops over to see them, one is a darkfriend and stabs at people close to rand, rand balefires the darkfriend.

 

this is what happens... When the balefire hits it erases not TIME but the darkfriends Timeline.Any actions made depending on how much of the timeline is gone (made only by the darkfriend) is removed.

 

The stabbings aren't undone they simply never occured. if TIME was erased then it would effect EVERYONE. because time isn't a singular entity it's all encompassing. you cant erase time in one place and have it continuing in another.

 

And about the air weaves, if imm not mistaken the aes sedai holding the weave has to move for the weave to move? so if it was tied of it cannot move on it's own.

[Canis Rufus]

We erase time and undue current events.

 

Thats what i was arguing is false. you dont undo current events, they just dont occur.

 

and you dont erase time, you erase a timeline (perse)

 

take this scenario ... A group of people a gathered and rand pops over to see them, one is a darkfriend and stabs at people close to rand, rand balefires the darkfriend.

 

this is what happens... When the balefire hits it erases not TIME but the darkfriends Timeline.Any actions made depending on how much of the timeline is gone (made only by the darkfriend) is removed.

 

The stabbings aren't undone they simply never occured. if TIME was erased then it would effect EVERYONE. because time isn't a singular entity it's all encompassing. you cant erase time in one place and have it continuing in another.

 

And about the air weaves, if imm not mistaken the aes sedai holding the weave has to move for the weave to move? so if it was tied of it cannot move on it's own.

 

 

Your time line idea still doesn't answer the problem of spent energy. (Also the effect would be a new time line, total, not a new time line point. The general idea is a total effect not point effect. See Einstein’s picture example. If you change one piece of the picture you have a new picture and the pictures layer or move forward constantly changing. Erase one aspect of the picture then it changes all the pictures moving forward. See also the chaos argument or butterfly effect.)

 

I am unsure of this I do not think so as they tie off shields and leave all the time but if you can support the concept I am willing to hear it. Though I would say by default that if you can tie one weave off and leave it unattended then it stands to reason you would be able to tie them all off. If A=b and B=c then C=A.

[Jblaylock]

Balefire more than makes it so the event never happens; balefire makes it so that the event cannot even happen, because the doer is pulled from the pattern.

 

Person A balefires person B.

Person C balefires person A.

That should undo person A's balefiring and bring back person B, right?

Nope. Person B and person A were both ripped from the pattern, so that they never existed and thus their actions cannot possibly happen or not happen, because they don't exist anynmore, nor have they existed, up until the point the balefiring reached back to.

[Canis Rufus]

So then we are stuck in the energy paradox. If none of it ever happend but the energy was spent then were did the energy go. Either they truly destroyed energy or they recreated it. Either way there is a problem.

[Erunion]

Not as great a problem as all that, I would suggest that the Balefire itself is the source of energy for the "undoing" of actions.

 

This ties into a larger idea, that (as Moratcorlm said earlier) the One Power is in itself an energy source.

 

My concept of it is this -

The One Power is a massive, potentially infinite (at the very least, near enough to being infinite for no one to notice the difference) source of energy. The channeler first "plugs in" to this source of energy. The channeler than takes this energy, and converts it into one of five usable forms, referred to as Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Spirit.

 

These five energy forms (which are just sub-forms of the One Power) can then be converted into other forms of energy, in order to complete differing tasks. For example, classic Aes Sedai healing stimulates the bodies own self-defense and healing properties, while supplying the body with a considerable amount of energy. Nynaeve's healing methods exclusively use the One Power to repair damaged physical systems, by-passing the bodies own repair systems, which is why Nynaeve's method doesn't leave the healed person drained, as classical healing does.

 

For sneaky uses of the OP, look at Semirhage and the Black Ajah, the Blacks have weaves that "boil the blood in the veins" as well as other, unspecified methods of killing a victim without leaving obvious physical signs. Semirhage contols pain and pleasure centers in the brain, but also has trickier techniques, like replacing all the blood in a human body with other fluids (I believe molten metal was the fluid specified, but I can't remember the exact reference). When Semirhage tells Suroth that she killed Empress Radhanan, she muses on how it is "amazing how much blood their is in the human body", whihc, combined with her other comments, intimates that she squeezed all the blood out of the Empresses body and spread it all over the Crystal Throne.

 

People do use some very clever OP tricks, but most of the sneaky ones are used exclusively by the bad guys.

I admit, every time I see one of the main characters actually do something smart with the OP, I am very, very happy.

 

Back to my original point on the balefiring - when Balefire is used, the thread is burnt out of the pattern to a certain distance. The pattern than completely rewrites everything from that point on to no longer include the Balefire victim. Balefire consumes so much energy, not because of the difficulty of snipping the thread from the pattern, but because of how much energy the Pattern must use to rewrite events. That is why the more powerful the Balefire, the farther back the burning out goes - the balefire supplies the pattern with power to remove the targeted individual from the pattern. The pattern then uses all the available energy to rewrite events until the energy runs out.

This may not be correct, but is one of many possible ways balfire could work without directly breaching conservation of energy.

[Canis Rufus]

Not as great a problem as all that, I would suggest that the Balefire itself is the source of energy for the "undoing" of actions.

 

This ties into a larger idea, that (as Moratcorlm said earlier) the One Power is in itself an energy source.

 

My concept of it is this -

The One Power is a massive, potentially infinite (at the very least, near enough to being infinite for no one to notice the difference) source of energy. The channeler first "plugs in" to this source of energy. The channeler than takes this energy, and converts it into one of five usable forms, referred to as Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Spirit.

 

These five energy forms (which are just sub-forms of the One Power) can then be converted into other forms of energy, in order to complete differing tasks. For example, classic Aes Sedai healing stimulates the bodies own self-defense and healing properties, while supplying the body with a considerable amount of energy. Nynaeve's healing methods exclusively use the One Power to repair damaged physical systems, by-passing the bodies own repair systems, which is why Nynaeve's method doesn't leave the healed person drained, as classical healing does.

 

For sneaky uses of the OP, look at Semirhage and the Black Ajah, the Blacks have weaves that "boil the blood in the veins" as well as other, unspecified methods of killing a victim without leaving obvious physical signs. Semirhage contols pain and pleasure centers in the brain, but also has trickier techniques, like replacing all the blood in a human body with other fluids (I believe molten metal was the fluid specified, but I can't remember the exact reference). When Semirhage tells Suroth that she killed Empress Radhanan, she muses on how it is "amazing how much blood their is in the human body", whihc, combined with her other comments, intimates that she squeezed all the blood out of the Empresses body and spread it all over the Crystal Throne.

 

People do use some very clever OP tricks, but most of the sneaky ones are used exclusively by the bad guys.

I admit, every time I see one of the main characters actually do something smart with the OP, I am very, very happy.

 

Back to my original point on the balefiring - when Balefire is used, the thread is burnt out of the pattern to a certain distance. The pattern than completely rewrites everything from that point on to no longer include the Balefire victim. Balefire consumes so much energy, not because of the difficulty of snipping the thread from the pattern, but because of how much energy the Pattern must use to rewrite events. That is why the more powerful the Balefire, the farther back the burning out goes - the balefire supplies the pattern with power to remove the targeted individual from the pattern. The pattern then uses all the available energy to rewrite events until the energy runs out.

This may not be correct, but is one of many possible ways balfire could work without directly breaching conservation of energy.

 

 

This is a clever take and not much very different from my own. You seem to be implying that OP is a form of energy that is being converted while I think it as more a pre-energy. However, I only see one fault to your theory. The energy does not add up. You see if we are converting then there is a loss, the cost of the conversion. Even if OP is infinite as you stated the events outside of the OP well are very finite. That being said if we Balefire something, even if Balefire replaces the loss energy you are still dealing with the problem of entropy.

 

If we were to fill a glass with milk then we used energy to fill the glass, if we were to pour the glass out we would have to use energy to pour it out. Now if we Balefire, the milk out then we never used the energy to pour the milk in the first place so the Balefire has to replace the following energy. First the energy used to pour the milk then the energy needed to remove the milk, lastly the energy to produce the Balefire. So we would be requiring Balefire to expend more energy then it as, remove the action replace the energy of the action and the energy required to complete the task and we would still be facing the issue of “replacing” spent energy.

[Malruhn]

Canis, why is it so very hard for you to understand that there's no loss of energy in this.

 

Right now, if you do NOT tie your shoe, how much energy is spent? Nada - outside of general outlay for keeping a heart beating and such. Now, if you bend over and tie your shoe - and I balefire you - you are torn from the weave - and the tying NEVER HAPPENED - it's not that you "lost" that energy or had to expend extra energy to untie it - it NEVER HAPPENED. This means that you expended NOTHING.

 

I think it's the time thing that is bothering you.

_____________________________

 

El Oscuro, your analogy about A and B and C and a full round-robin of balefiring is twisted.

 

A Blasts B

C Blasts A

 

What we have to do is consider the strengths of the blasts and how far back they go.

 

Arbitrarily, let's say that A hits B with a 2-second blast. This means that everything that B did as of two seconds ago is undone, and NOW his thread is burned from the pattern.

 

If C subsequently hits A with a 2-second blast, then A goes back two seconds... BUT, 2.1 seconds ago, A blasted B out of existence. Now, both A and B are forever gone from the pattern.

 

If, however, C hits A with a 3-second blast, then A goes back THREE seconds - PRIOR to blasting B. This undoes the blasting of B, and gets rid of A. B is fine, and can go off and live as good a life as anyone with two bale-firers hanging around them...

 

The deletion of subsequent threads and replacing them after subsequent blastings is (in my opinion) what makes the whole wholesale use of balefire so VERY dangerous and is what was weakening the weave... and why it is rarely used any more.

____________________________________

 

And to whomever was talking about it - balefiring a bridge after the bad guy walks across wouldn't matter. The bridge isn't a "soul" that is woven into the pattern.