Where did the Forsaken learn to speak English?

[buckeyebull64]

Just idly during my reread through, I stumbled across Asmo staring at Mat when he broke into the old tounge. Then I realized, this guy, and all his buddies, have been asleep for 3000+ years. He's been awake, oh, a couple months. His two buddies popped right out in tEotW and knew the current language. How did they learn the current language?

[Demiandre]

Because it is a far easier language. So they don't have the same difficulties as have the current people for learning the Old Tongue. Or so I guess

[Agitel]

They don't exactly speak English... but I know what you mean. The common tongue spoken in the books is derived from the Old Tongue. It has a lot of similarities to begin with. However, the Forsaken weren't blind when they were sealed away. They could observe focused parts of the world, and could thus pick up the language. They're incredibly bright people, and likely had a little time to practice after escaping, anyway.

[Demiandre]

However, the Forsaken weren't blind when they were sealed away. They could observe focused parts of the world, and could thus pick up the language

 

Sure about it? I don't remember anything like that anywhere in the books...

[ImNoBloodyHero]

I thought Lanfear commented to Rand that the Forsaken "were trapped in dreamless slumber"? It was one of the early books (when she visits Rand in the Stone of Tear?) and she commented something about "only the Myrdraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream." Doesn't sound like they were "focused on parts of the world".

[Tom Sawyer]

They probably went into a vacuole with a Google ter'angreal and spent a few years learning the language and about all the various cultures and societies one morning. The really weird question is how the hell the Aiel and the Seanchan are speaking the same language.

[Agitel]

However, the Forsaken weren't blind when they were sealed away. They could observe focused parts of the world, and could thus pick up the language

 

Sure about it? I don't remember anything like that anywhere in the books...

 

Jordan answered the topic question at some point. I guess I can't just give his answer without sourcing it, though. Ahah! I apologize. Aginor and Balthamel were sealed close enough to the surface to watch. The rest, aside from Ishamael, had a dreamless sleep, as said.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

 

Sometimes a little review helps.

[Jblaylock]

I just assumed it was a sort of mental upgrade package deal the Dark One gave them, implanting it into their brains, when they awoke. I mean, there is a lot of "magic" and unbelievable stuff that you jsut accept in the books as "magic", so why get caught up on this?

[Demiandre]

Ok Agitel, I didn't know of this quote. Sorry^^

 

El Oscuro, like an add-on for Forsaken? A software upgrade? I see them as terminator-like, now. Thx... :D

[Jblaylock]

El Oscuro, like an add-on for Forsaken? A software upgrade? I see them as terminator-like, now. Thx... :D

 

Exactly!

 

just kidding.

 

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

[Demiandre]

Well, I suppose that closes the debate. We just broke the temporary self suspension of disbelief with this topic. S**t!

 

:D

 

So to say it clearly, I agree with you, El Oscuro, there has to be a way. We just keep thinking some things as impossible because we don't see them hapenning, or too suspicous because of years of RAFO, and then stick too much on what is written or implied, not what is thr idea behind. :D

[OptimusPrime]

El Oscuro, like an add-on for Forsaken? A software upgrade? I see them as terminator-like, now. Thx... :D

 

Exactly!

 

just kidding.

 

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

 

Beautiful

 

[Wheel of Thyme]

Tom Sawyer is right. It IS weird that Aiel and Seanchan speak the same language. Theyve been seperated for thousands of years, and that should have been ample time for the language shifts that naturally occur to form whole new tounges. Think off evolution; seperated by time and distance, creatures evolve, very slow changes over time. Language does the same. Im surprised the Seanchan speak the same language as ANYONE in the mainlands.

[username13]

Tom Sawyer is right. It IS weird that Aiel and Seanchan speak the same language. Theyve been seperated for thousands of years, and that should have been ample time for the language shifts that naturally occur to form whole new tounges. Think off evolution; seperated by time and distance, creatures evolve, very slow changes over time. Language does the same. Im surprised the Seanchan speak the same language as ANYONE in the mainlands.

 

RJ Explained that one to some extent, though I'm a little lazy to find the link for it now. Anyway, In Hawkwings time The Old Tongue was facing out of use, only used by members of the court - lords/ladies, high military (eg: some guys in Mats memories), etc. The Common tongue (in use now) was considered a crude slang like language known by commoners really, though was finding its way into everything at the time. It eexplains how the Seanchan know Common tongue, though surprised there have been no reference to language spoken by the original inhabitants of Seanchan.

[moratcorlm]

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

Why in the world would you be confused by this? Nowhere in the series are we given the impression that language acquisition is part of the ordinary magic system we have suspended disbelief for.

[moratcorlm]

RJ Explained that one to some extent, though I'm a little lazy to find the link for it now. Anyway, In Hawkwings time The Old Tongue was facing out of use, only used by members of the court - lords/ladies, high military (eg: some guys in Mats memories), etc. The Common tongue (in use now) was considered a crude slang like language known by commoners really, though was finding its way into everything at the time. It eexplains how the Seanchan know Common tongue, though surprised there have been no reference to language spoken by the original inhabitants of Seanchan.

That the Seanchan and the residents of Hawkwing's former empire speak the same language is possibly credible. After all, there seems to be an extremely high level of literacy here, the printing press has been around for 3000 years, and so forth; how much linguistic drift has there been in English since the invention of the printing press? I'm honestly not sure, but the modern American accent is similar to that spoken by the English a few hundred years back, and American English and British English are mutually intelligible. What's more dubious are the Illianer and Taraboner eccentricities; they don't seem like the sorts of things that would arise from a unified common language.

 

But the Aiel? The Sharans? Whether they buy books from peddlers or not, they're the biggest bunch of xenophobic racists in the world, and they have had relatively little intercourse with the rest of the world in over two thousand years. They really should still be speaking the Old Tongue, or some bastardized version of it, with a little understanding of the common speech among traders.

[Jon Paul]

But the Aiel? The Sharans? Whether they buy books from peddlers or not, they're the biggest bunch of xenophobic racists in the world, and they have had relatively little intercourse with the rest of the world in over two thousand years. They really should still be speaking the Old Tongue, or some bastardized version of it, with a little understanding of the common speech among traders.

 

I agree with you in regards to the Aiel. They really should not be speaking the common tongue of the rest. But Shara? How do we know they do not speak a different language over all? The only real contact with them is via the trade routes. So it's reasonable that the traders should have a command of the tongue of their victims.. I mean customers. Inside the place though who knows?

[Haran]

Because they don’t speak English at all. They speak the vulgar tongue which I presume is being translated to English for the reader. While the old tongue is not being translated to English it is still closely related to the vulgar tongue.

Also haven’t you noticed, nothing changes in Randland. They speak of the age of legends and mean an age where things were exactly the same as they are now except they had more magical items. No political, no economical, no sociological changes at all.

[OptimusPrime]

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

Why in the world would you be confused by this? Nowhere in the series are we given the impression that language acquisition is part of the ordinary magic system we have suspended disbelief for.

 

Mat gets the Old Tongue without being taught. Wouldnt be surprised if Rand can speak full Old Tongue now as well despite not having learned it fully. Both get memories, and thus experience, from conditions that require the suspension from disbelief. Mats get pointed out when he starts spouting Old Tongue. If theres no suspension of disbelief involved in that, if that suspension of disbelief cant be used with the Forsaken as well, Id like to know who you've met that can speak a language without being taught or having learned it.

[Agitel]

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

Why in the world would you be confused by this? Nowhere in the series are we given the impression that language acquisition is part of the ordinary magic system we have suspended disbelief for.

 

Mat gets the Old Tongue without being taught. Wouldnt be surprised if Rand can speak full Old Tongue now as well despite not having learned it fully. Both get memories, and thus experience, from conditions that require the suspension from disbelief. Mats get pointed out when he starts spouting Old Tongue. If theres no suspension of disbelief involved in that, if that suspension of disbelief cant be used with the Forsaken as well, Id like to know who you've met that can speak a language without being taught or having learned it.

 

Er... well, aside from actually having Jordan's official answer on the subject and saying that no magic business was involved, I think it bears pointing out that both Mat and Rand are extreme, exceptional cases. Suspension of belief for them is a bit different than applying it to everyone... Also, their language comes from past lives. The Forsaken aren't drawing on that with regards to their language, so you'd be suspending belief for two completely different things.

[buckeyebull64]

It's not hard to believe all Seanchan, westlands, and waste all speak the same language. The seanchan have only been gone one thousand years, and very likely took books, including what passes for textbooks, with them. The aiel interacted with cairhien for 2000 years, minus 20 once the language had already been established. Besides, the peddlers hottest item in the was is apparently books, as said in the Shadow Rising.

 

Also, I know it's not called English, but that's how it's written. I just needed a title

[Tom Sawyer]

It's not hard to believe all Seanchan, westlands, and waste all speak the same language. The seanchan have only been gone one thousand years, and very likely took books, including what passes for textbooks, with them. The aiel interacted with cairhien for 2000 years, minus 20 once the language had already been established. Besides, the peddlers hottest item in the was is apparently books, as said in the Shadow Rising.

 

Also, I know it's not called English, but that's how it's written. I just needed a title

 

A thousand years is a long time for languages. Back in 1000 AD, Old English was used. The wiki for it hs some examples of the language next to their modern English translations and you can see that the differences are fairly drastic. Aiel and Seanchan tongues evolving in isolation for a thousand years along their own separate paths would be far different from each other. Even languages like French and Italian, which grew from the same Latin base right next to each other with lots of interactions between their societies are distinctly separate and knowing one only gives you a basic understanding of a subset of words in the other and the Aiel and Seanchan haven't had any interaction at all.

 

I understand the rationale for not bothering with separate languages from a plot perspective, but it's just a pet peeve of mine for no particularly good reason.

[buckeyebull64]

Yeah 1000 years is a long time, but in an iron fisted society like the seanchan, I dont see language changing much, especially during a time of relativily stagnant technological and industrial growth. The aiel, on the other hand, don't have the resourses or inclination to develope a separate language. All thier media comes from the westlands, and they reguarlly interact with peddlers and traders who speak common. I would guess that the Wise Ones make it a point to keep thier people speaking common, in preparation for when the time comes to cross the dragonwall with He Who Comes With the Dawn

[Tom Sawyer]

Yeah 1000 years is a long time, but in an iron fisted society like the seanchan, I dont see language changing much, especially during a time of relativily stagnant technological and industrial growth. The aiel, on the other hand, don't have the resourses or inclination to develope a separate language. All thier media comes from the westlands, and they reguarlly interact with peddlers and traders who speak common. I would guess that the Wise Ones make it a point to keep thier people speaking common, in preparation for when the time comes to cross the dragonwall with He Who Comes With the Dawn

 

Is there one real world example of a society that this would even remotely apply to? It's just totally unrelated to and at odds with any form of linguistic development that's ever happened.

[buckeyebull64]

Your own wiki article says old english was used for 700 years. The seanchan obviously have different words inserted into thier version, but under a completely stable and controlling govenment with no major challenges to its power, and that same government hanging on to it's ambition to return to a land where they know the language is spoken, and having quashed all those languages that were spoken before thier take over (cause that's what imperialists do), it's continued usage is plausible.