Question: TGH -- Fain and Ingtar

[Khosann]

Hello,

 

I am reading the series again. I have some questions:

 

1 Why Fain stole the Horn and Dagger? I mean was he under Ishamael's orders to draw Rand and Mat to Falme so Ishamael could confront and convert them? Or was that Mordeth (not Fain) and HE stole the horn and dagger to hurt Mat and Rand independently from the DO? We know that Ingtar is a darkfriend and he rescued Fain. This implies that Fain was controlled by the DO at that time.

 

2 Why Ingtar came with Rand to rescue the horn? Did he change his mind about being a darkfriend right after the gray man attack to join the rescue party? Or did he turn the light only after seeing the portal stones? If so then why he joined the party to recover the horn from Fain? Especially if he was still a loyal darkfriend at the beginning and if Fain had stolen the horn by Ishamael's command.

[trashbird1240]

1 Why Fain stole the Horn and Dagger? I mean was he under Ishamael's orders to draw Rand and Mat to Falme so Ishamael could confront and convert them? Or was that Mordeth (not Fain) and HE stole the horn and dagger to hurt Mat and Rand independently from the DO? We know that Ingtar is a darkfriend and he rescued Fain. This implies that Fain was controlled by the DO at that time.

 

Mordeth wanted the dagger; it was his. Mordeth or Fain the Darkfriend stole the horn to use as bait, or to parley with others who might want the horn.

 

2 Why Ingtar came with Rand to rescue the horn? Did he change his mind about being a darkfriend right after the gray man attack to join the rescue party? Or did he turn the light only after seeing the portal stones? If so then why he joined the party to recover the horn from Fain? Especially if he was still a loyal darkfriend at the beginning and if Fain had stolen the horn by Ishamael's command.

 

The horn was his salvation for being a Darkfriend. He was hoping to blow the horn to redeem himself. He reveals that he's a Darkfriend by saying "The horn was my salvation." Ingtar is given credit for shooting at Rand inside Fal Dara Keep, and accidentally hitting Siuan Sanche, the Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

1 Why Fain stole the Horn and Dagger? I mean was he under Ishamael's orders to draw Rand and Mat to Falme so Ishamael could confront and convert them? Or was that Mordeth (not Fain) and HE stole the horn and dagger to hurt Mat and Rand independently from the DO? We know that Ingtar is a darkfriend and he rescued Fain. This implies that Fain was controlled by the DO at that time.

 

Mordeth wanted the dagger; it was his. Mordeth or Fain the Darkfriend stole the horn to use as bait, or to parley with others who might want the horn.

 

2 Why Ingtar came with Rand to rescue the horn? Did he change his mind about being a darkfriend right after the gray man attack to join the rescue party? Or did he turn the light only after seeing the portal stones? If so then why he joined the party to recover the horn from Fain? Especially if he was still a loyal darkfriend at the beginning and if Fain had stolen the horn by Ishamael's command.

 

 

The horn was his salvation for being a Darkfriend. He was hoping to blow the horn to redeem himself. He reveals that he's a Darkfriend by saying "The horn was my salvation." Ingtar is given credit for shooting at Rand inside Fal Dara Keep, and accidentally hitting Siuan Sanche, the Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat.

 

Correct, as far as I remember, except for one point: Ingtar didn't shoot the arrow; he let in an assassin (Grey Man if I recall correctly, might be wrong about that) to do it. At the end he says he "didn't know what the man wanted until he fired; still didn't know whether the shot was meant for Rand or Siuan."

[blazetheearth]

Ingtar did not release Fain, that was either Verin or Lilandrin. Ingtar brought the grey man that shot the arrow at Rand (the one that scratched Suian).

 

Fain took the SL dagger because he had already been corrupted by Mordeth and that part of Mordeth's soul that Fain carried out of SL craved the dagger as it would help the SL-taint grown within Fain.

 

When Moir talks about her interview with Fain, she included Mordeth twisting the Shadow's grasp on Fain. that's why he took the dagger, and Ishy did NOT send Fain to Falme. The myrddral (sp) that went with Fain was supposed to bring the Horn back to the Blight, not give it to the Seanchan. That is why we see in Fain's PoV that he and the half-man were fighting for control of the group, hence all of the zig-zagging they did. First south, then north, then south again, then north again and back and forth until Fain nails the Fade to a door in that village and from then on they go straight toward Cair, until Rand steals the chest back.

 

Hope that covers your questions.

[Khosann]

Ingtar did not release Fain, that was either Verin or Lilandrin. Ingtar brought the grey man that shot the arrow at Rand (the one that scratched Suian).

 

Fain took the SL dagger because he had already been corrupted by Mordeth and that part of Mordeth's soul that Fain carried out of SL craved the dagger as it would help the SL-taint grown within Fain.

 

When Moir talks about her interview with Fain, she included Mordeth twisting the Shadow's grasp on Fain. that's why he took the dagger, and Ishy did NOT send Fain to Falme. The myrddral (sp) that went with Fain was supposed to bring the Horn back to the Blight, not give it to the Seanchan. That is why we see in Fain's PoV that he and the half-man were fighting for control of the group, hence all of the zig-zagging they did. First south, then north, then south again, then north again and back and forth until Fain nails the Fade to a door in that village and from then on they go straight toward Cair, until Rand steals the chest back.

 

Hope that covers your questions.

 

 

Hey thanks that helped a lot. I thought Ingtar released Fain. Hence the confusion. So Igntar was a darkfriend when accompanied Rand to retrieve the horn, he had to retrieve it from Fain for the DO. But after portal stone he regretted being a darkfriend and wanted the horn for himself to redeem himself. NOW I get it.

[Demiandre]

No I think Ingtar wanted redemption as soon as he let the Grey Man enter the keep. See his determination to retrieve the Horn. And he didn't wanted the Horn for himself, but to protect Shienar. He wanted to strike at Shayol Ghul with the Heroes of the Horn to repel the Shadow. He didn't joined the shadow out of ambition or thirst of power, but out of desperation at the state of the Borderlands, who where slowly being annihilated by the Blight. I dont really understand his reasoning, but heh! Who can understand the heart of a man? (Dixit Siuan Sanche during Mat's Healing)

 

Hey I never understood that zigzagging. I thought it was a trap to mislead Rand and Co. Never thought it could have been the Myyrdraal and Fain disputing Control of the hord...

[Evoke]

Did anyone find it to be a surprise that Ingtar was a darkfriend on a quest to redeem himself?

[mb]

Ingtar did not release Fain, that was either Verin or Lilandrin.

I recall someone posting that Robert Jordan told it was Ingtar. Do not remember the exact thread.

[Nelal Hurcran]

Ingtar did not release Fain, that was either Verin or Lilandrin.

I recall someone posting that Robert Jordan told it was Ingtar. Do not remember the exact thread.

 

Direct quote:

Wotmania Interview 2004

 

Q: Did Ingtar free Padan Fain in The Great Hunt? Or was it someone else?

RJ: It was Ingtar. Didn’t expect a straight answer, did you?

 

Found using the Theoryland Interview Database: bit.ly/wotinterviews , under "Fain and all things Shadar Logoth"

[blazetheearth]

My mistake about Ingtar releasing fain then, I didn't know about the RJ quote. But as far as the zig-zagging goes we find out about it from one of Fain's PoV's during the chase. Right after Rand goes to mirror world when he orders the rest of the villagers slaughtered and put in a pile. He talked about how much it bothered him that he woke up each morning to not be in control any longer, but that since he had nailed the Fade to the door, things were better. Don't remember the exact wording off hand.

 

It is odd that it was Ingtar that released Fain though, because of Fain's reaction to the person that let's him out. I didn't think he would necessarily recognize Ingtar, but there seemed to be recognition when he says "You...not who I expected." I was thinking that Fain didn't really know any of the darkfriends that we know we in Fal Dara at the time. I thought he just recognized an Aes Sedai face.